The 3rd or 4th God?


#1

I think this topic deserves it’s own thread if the mods disagree feel free to merge it wherever.

Game Design, Psychology, Flow, and Mastery - Articles - Street Fighter HD Remix:?Balrog
Game Design, Psychology, Flow, and Mastery - Articles - Street Fighter HD Remix:?Vega
Game Design, Psychology, Flow, and Mastery - Articles - Street Fighter HD Remix:?Dhalsim
Game Design, Psychology, Flow, and Mastery - Articles - Street Fighter HD Remix:?Ryu

There was a lot of debate when hdr launched about who was the best, compared to st where we’ve known for years the top4 tower over the rest of the cast. Since release I’ve maintained claw and boxer remain top tier as very little about them has changed. Boxer’s throw loop was barely nerfed and jab headbutt isn’t completely safe while claw lost abusive dive which was broken but it’s his speed, ground game, and throw that makes him top in st not the dive.

Sim is not so easily defined because more then a few competent sim players feel he was nerfed enough to not be considered toptier anymore. What has really changed here? Teleport is basically a free hit now and he can be hit out of super with almost any jumpin are those two things really enough to not make his unchanged offensive and defensive ability just as scary?

Then we have ryu who many if not most people here claim to be the new toptier but why? He wasn’t tops in st but now he is because…he has a fake? Fake has plenty of uses but why do so many people think it makes him too good? It helps him in his 4 bad matchups and against the rest of the cast as well but using fake fb doesn’t exactly guarantee you’ll get a double perfect in fact I’ve only seen a few players (dgv, scoot magee, uber cyber ryu, and maybe 1 or 2 others) implement it well enough for it to make a considerable difference. Does Sirlin’s view of fake fb being a risk for ryu hold water today?

Other then guiles new flashkick being able to punish sim’s limbs I can’t think of any significant buffs the rest of the cast gained against the top 3. I’ve yet to see a plausible argument against fake fb and yes I concede he didn’t need it but I claim with it it doesn’t constitute as a huge unnecessary buff as many here believe.

Anyone who has extensive knowledge of any of these 4 characters is especially welcome to share their thoughts.


#2

Ok. I’ll bite…

Sim is still a good character. But some match-ups became much more difficult, where they are now even or where Sim has lost the advantage.

Many of the character’s power-ups (or power-downs in the case of Boxer & Chun) made many of Sim’s match-up ‘about even’: Blanka, Guile, Ken, Hawk, Cammy, Ryu, DJ, Gief, Sagat, Boxer, Chun, Cammy, & Honda

The only character’s that have a ‘strong advantage’ over Sim IMO are: Dic (due to new Devil’s Reverse), & Claw (Loss of dive spam was nice, but there is still an advatage, fake wall dive doesn’t hurt either.)

If the game was still played heavily I think over time you would find the top 3 characters to be (in no particular order):

(1) Dic,
(2) Boxer,
(3) & Ryu,

As I am sure the 4th spot could easly shared by a few characters.

I know many may say Dic shouldn’t be there, but I htink an expert dictator has yet to show us how strong he could be. If someone like Giga-Msx picked him up and actually played the game, there would be some jaws dropping. Don’t say I am crazy just yet, there was a time when poeple still thought HDR Gief was still a scrub. Many saw the his potnential, but it took SEs to show us how strong he could be.

Anyway, that is my opinion and just an opinion only. :karate:

-fatboy


#3

Every matchup excluding Blanka ,Sagat and T-Hawk is harder for Claw in HDR than in ST.

That should tell you enough.


#4

Balrog > Dhalsim > Vega > Ryu

IMO.


#5

Boxer, Dhalsim, Claw, Ryu, Dictator for top tier, especially since Dic was already borderline and got nothing but buffs.

Ken, Dee Jay, Sagat are high tier.

Guile, Honda, Zangief, Blanka are mid.

Chun Li, T. Hawk, Fei Long, Cammy for the rest.

Granted, if the scene was bigger we’d likely see all 16 characters placing, so tier placement isn’t saying a whole lot.


#6

This. Sagat is one character that comes to mind when speaking of tier placements: he is still a beast, but the absolute best players are using Ryu, so it’s hard to tell. E.G, you have Afro on Dee Jay, he suddenly looks like beating all shotos, and we know it isn’t like that always.


#7

The top 4 imo…

Boxer(obviously)
Ryu(always solid from the beginning, fake fireball is overrated but character nerfs pushed him up this far)
Sagat(with less recovery he’s basically old sagat remixed imo, he’s very good and I don’t even play him seriously)
Dictator(He’s fucking godlike with a reliable reversal, his only real weakness got fixed:mad:)

Sim noogie range and lack of reliable reversal due to less invincibility on teleport knocks him down to upper tier, he’s still good but not as great as he used to be…
Claw lack of knockdown from walldives make only a little above average and most of his matchups now exactly even… he doesn’t have a true advantage in many imo… fake walldive does nothing as far as im concerned considering he could land early in ST…


#8

Instead of looking at this from the perspective of what changes the top four received, look at it from the perspective of what changes everyone else got.

As a Chun player, I’ll go into this really briefly:

  • Boxer is virtually the same. It’s easier to counter-attack after a blocked headbutt, and harder to kill with super, but Chun still has a pretty easy time controlling the match. I always thought this match was about even, and I still do.

  • Claw can’t cheese Chun with Wall Dives anymore, but Claw can beat Lightning Legs with random shit now (Rolling Attack? Are you kidding me?). Still, good Chuns didn’t die to dives, and good Claw players will never Roll into Lightning Legs. This match is unchanged, imo.

  • I would argue that Dhalsim v Chun is the same, but I’ve heard some good Sim players suggest that losing the ability to cancel slide into super was a big deal in this match. I don’t personally think it is, but Chun’s super works like ass on Sim now, so I’d still say this match hasn’t gone anywhere.

  • Chun v Ryu is definitively worse, because the changes to Chun’s SBK makes the two worst situations for Chun in this match harder. Chun can’t safely SBK out of crossups anymore, and she can’t safely Air SBK over fireballs to build meter. So now, if Chun gets in a bad situation - particularly if she gets cornered - she’s probably screwed now.

These are just my thoughts, but I know there’s a few other really good Chun players that cruise around here, so maybe they can weigh in? In any case, this is probably how you’re going to have to look at matchups to determine who’s the best.


#9

That is what I said, I can’t think of anything anyone got that would help them have a significantly easier time vs claw and boxer which is why I still think they dominate and why I think ryu is like he was in st high not tops.

Sim players mind going into detail about exactly how all his matchups changed?


#10

I still think Ryu is the perfect character in this game. He has answers for everything.


#11

Fake helps a little against everyone but sagat, sim, boxer, and claw are still bad matchups which is why I don’t get how he can be compared to hdr boxer and claw who IMO tower above everyone else.


#12

Been a while since I’ve played, but why not:

Sim vs Guile: The biggest thing about that match was the fact that SIm could c. limb under sonic booms, hit Guile, and then recover in time to block the boom, had it not already blown past him. I think now you just trade. This made the match a bit more fair, but still it was quite an adjustment.

Sim vs Honda: The headbutt changed the match completely for me. Other will probably disagree to the extent that it did, but it makes it much easier for him to get in, and once he’s in it pretty much sucks. Faster input for HHS tilts this in his favor too.

SIm vs Dic: Nerfed Noogie loop and no super slide make this harder to beat once you finally get him in the corner. Invulnerability on DR helps him as well.

Sim vs Claw: Nerfed Noogie loop and no super slide make this harder to beat once you finally get him in the corner. Yobal tactics have been nerfed, but this is still in claw’s favor.

Sim vs Chun: The new SBK is a free hit most of the time for Sim (c. mp). Still in Chun’s favor though.

Sim vs Gief: Still in Sim’s favor. However, playing Haru Tejou or Snake Eyez makes me wonder about this :lol:

Sim vs Sagat: Still in Sim’s favor. Extra recovery on fireballs makes it fun to nail him with libs (sorry Zoollander )

Sim vs DeeJay: Still in Sim’s favor.

That’s all I remember for now.


#13

I’m curious how slide into super was removed from Dhalsim. Is it technically impossible to do, or is the new motion just harder to do it with?

I don’t really think Dhalsim got nerfed that much imo. Mash throw loop seems like the biggest nerf he got, but other than that he plays pretty much the same. He can’t abuse limbs vs booms, but that is just one MU that he still wins. Reversal super and easier/non overlapping commands for yoga flame/blast seem to be pretty good buffs. I’m probably biased, but I hate reversal supers from Dhalsim. I hate them sooooo much as a Zangief player. They seem really buff to me. The rest of the cast did get better, so maybe that’s why Dhalsim mains think he isn’t top tier anymore. I’m not a Dhalsim expert, so I could be wrong.


#14

Slide, Super is definitely harder to do. IDK understand why this is, technically it should still be possible, but I haven’t yet been able to pull it off, even though I could do it in ST. I think it has to do with the fact that you only have a few frames to cancel the slide into Super, and the new motion makes you have to put in more inputs before cancelling.

In ST I do: HCF, B, DB, D, DF+MK, F+Punch
In HDR I do: HCB, F, DF+MK, QCB+Punch

As I see it, the additional 3 inputs makes it tougher to do in HDR, altho I have no doubt that it’s technically possible.


#15

yuh vega dj > Giga-Msx

yuh vega dj has over 900 ranked HDR games and who knows how many HDR casual games played.
I think it is reasonable to look to yuh vega dj to determine what the potential power level of Dictator in HDR is. (at least this early in HDR’s lifecycle)

Anyone with playing time vs. yuh vega dj want to chime in on Dictator’s power level?

I am sure that there are many more HDR specific tricks to be unlocked and mastered for the various characters, but that will just have to emerge in the scene whenever it does.


#16

What’s that site that someone set up where you could see how gamer tags performed on ranked? I’d love to plug his ID in there and see how he stacked up against the various characters…


#17

yes, me too. I was looking for that. I found it once, but google doesn’t pull it up anymore.


#18

Oh really now.

Everyone: Does not lose to him from 1 knockdown.

Guile: No longer lacks a response to repeated slides.

Zangief: Normals buffed specifically to deal with walldives. Used to have literally almost no response to repeated walldives.

Dhalsim: Upward flame a lot better in dealing with claw beyond that extremely helped by no knockdown on walldive more than no noogie loop.

Dictator: No knockdown helps him tremendously but beyond that can get out of deep walldives with devils reverse.

How much of a deal is no knockdown walldive ?

I adamantly believe Claw vs Honda is 6-4 claw in ST. It’s probably in Honda’s favor in HDR.


#19

I’ve asked Sirlin about this and I forget the technical details, but he definitely did make it harder to do on purpose. I think what was changed is that you have less frames to super cancel now. And I think you have so few frames now that if the game skips a frame it won’t work even if you do it perfectly. You don’t have to cancel a slide. You can cancel down-back + LP/LK/MK, etc. But i’ve tried and tried. I’ve tried negative edging the butting. Pretty sure I’ve tried turbos too. And it comes out once in a blue moon. For all practical purposes Dhalsim just can’t cancel into super anymore. :sad:

On why is Dhalsim worse? Basically because almost everyone else got better. He’s still good, just not as good IMO.


#20

Street Fighter

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