The completely arbitrary combo problem


c = close
d = ducking

First, all this was tested without using frame inputs. Maybe someone with that capability can answer this question?

It’s been known for some time that Gouki can combo a HP DP off cLP against an airborne target, but only if the LP hit them very deep. On the surface this looks like something easy to explain; you can refer to the frame data which tells you his HP DP has a 1 frame startup. Maybe this is also why LP DP won’t work. It has a 3 frame startup.

But this check clearly fails when combos that should work based on speed don’t work at all. For example, cHP xx SA2 works but cHP xx HP DP misses, why? They are both supposed to have 1 frame startups and I’m sure they have the same range.

Under the same conditions, cLP xx MP DP hits. The MP version has a 2 frame startup. OK, so maybe 2 frame attacks will hit off the deep cLP.

Ken’s cLP has the same properties as Gouki’s. But Ken can’t get his LP DP, his fastest version, to hit off cLP. In fact, his EX DP which is supposed to be 1 frame won’t hit at all either. Why?

All of Ryu’s normal DPs miss, except his EX DP. But his EX is 2 frames to Ken’s 1, so why does his hit but Ken’s won’t?

What are the rules that define clearly what will hit when canceled against an airborne target? It sure looks like the attack must be within 2 frames but beyond that, what counts?


Ken’s close jab doesn’t have the juggle properties of the other shotos. You can’t juggle with repeated jabs on a stunned opponent who’s in the air, and you can’t reset with it into a super either. It’s not just about the frames. The designers must’ve programmed that property independently of frame data, be it accidentally or otherwise.

I dunno about the other stuff. I guess different move types were specifically designed to have different juggle properties. You can reset with a close jab with Ryu/Akuma then do SA1 whenever you want, but a non-super would never connect in that fashion. So maybe after close HP, the small window for a juggle applies to supers only, and for close LP, special moves can only hit within x number of frames (two sounds fair in this scenario), but for supers it’s a much longer window.

In other words, these rules could’ve been implemented in a way that isn’t as easily quantifiable as frame data, so you can’t just look at the frames and predict everything in the game. No one really knows every detail, but the system mechanics thread is a good place to start.


jchen wrote a faq a while back explaining this and the rule follow through for pretty much every other sf game. I think it’s the cvs1 faq on gamefaqs if you want a clear explanation of what’s going on.