The effectiveness of Ultra 2 now

abel

#1

Since the nerfs on Ultra 2 from the various updates to Street Fighter 4 , Breathless has become decidedly worse.

That being said, are there any match ups in SSF4AE 2012 where Breathless is the preferred ultra over Souless? Examples, videos, whatever you guys have would be appreciated.

Thanks a lot for your time.


#2

hello Mr White T hawk
questions such as this are recommended to come in the form of posts on already existing threads, no need creating an entire thread whose point will cease once the answer is given.

Does ultra II still have a use, absolutely yes however the extent is relative to whomever you speak to.

I for one find Ultra II to be useful against Bison, Honda, Zangief, Vega, maybe Hakan and Guy along with a few others whom which I can’t remember at the moment.
Other Abel players I’m sure will chime in with more details, I am busy at the moment playing Injustice, GODS AMONG US :stuck_out_tongue:


#3

Its a more reliable OS vs backdash, also useful against characters who love to jump, as punishment to some moves on block (e.g. vs honda), or against characters who step kick dash st.hp wont connect consistently.

Its also a legit option at certain range, versus certain characters (especially charge characters I guess) to pull off as a pseudo-reaction kinda thing, for example vs a dictator at a range where he’s moving forward(no charge) and will likely do st.mk or st.hk as poke, then you do the U2 and you can react to release the ultra if you saw the mk or hk animation, and the dictator at a range where jump forward or back wont escape… There’s probably a shorter explanation for that but English isnt my first language so I tend to be verbose hoping that I got the point across lol


#4

Another thing that speaks for U2, -> it is never scaled. So when you hit, you hit hard.
Unfortunately you cant combo into it, so I use it against characters, on which it is hard to land a combo.

For example balrog, because he is almost always crouching, and he has those weird hurtbox, so
FS, backdash, mk roll, cs.mp xx cod fadc combo doesnt work ! because cs.mp becomes the far version.

I also use it against guile, because his fireball is too fast to punish with U1, while he jumps he has not enough time to charge anew, and he cant change his jumparc, so any jump is a free U2.

I like to play U2 against ryus who know their safejump stuff and abuse that a lot, but they can mash dp while landing as an OS which kills the Ultra :frowning:


#5

Interesting. Need to try this. Abelity is U2 your ultra of choice against Dictator or was it just an example?

I use ultra 2 against Honda, Guile and sometimes Boxer. Crossup mk on Boxer’s wakeup and if they ex dash punch to escape, U2


#6

I always use U1 against Guile, because he is generally always crouching and is susceptible to crossover mk -> cr HP -> U1.

Not to mention baiting and rolling past a Flash Kick.

And I love, absolutely love, reading/reacting to a Sonic Boom with U1.

U2 List:
Honda
Vega
Chun Li (depending on the player…but it’s very good against her high jump arcs and pokes)
Balrog (U2 sometimes feels really cheap against 'rog)
Zangief


#7

As Angry Abel pointed out, Guile is extremely susceptible to cross ups post hard knock downs, that coupled with the fact that guile gets hit by step kick -> fierce when he crouches makes his footsie game vs Abel very risky.

What are your preferred uses for Ultra II in this match?


#8

I use U2 for these characters:

Feilong - Why wouldn’t you use U2 for this matchup? It is excellent against Fei, punishes chicken wing at a little behind mid-range (expecially when fei is in the corner and CW’s, just let her rip after backdashing away from the corner about twice spacing),absorbs 1st hit of rekka, punishes ultra (absorbs 1st hit), punishes dp (just hold charge if you anticipate dp during your oki)

Akuma - U2 Punishes sweep, lowers abels hurtbox so I have a better wake-up game and more likely for akuma to whiff, alternatively if akuma does ultra then I can hold down charge to escape (well, sometimes)

Ibuki - I let her rip on wake-up when she throws her Kunai (knives?), I don’t know how many times the ultra has auto-corrected and caught Ibuki - probably the only reason I use it in this match-up. (but lately have just been armor cancelling to escape her kunai mixup, so there is less need for the ultra)

Makoto - U2 lets me keep Makoto honest with her axe kick during my wake-up, plus it punishes back-dashes so easily - Makoto has such a long backdash.

Still use U2 for Chun, Vega, Rog.

I stopped using U2 against Honda and Dictator for 1 reason, I can neutral jump a headbutt and psycho crusher, then raw ultra. I also stopped using U2 against Gief, it just led me to do riskier stuff and I would put myself in a 50/50 (kinda like wager in injustice… well not really), plus u1 works against gief in the corner and you can still punish lariat with raw ultra just before the lariat animation finishes.


#9

Reason(s) to use Souless against Fei
Fei Long gets hit with step kick -> fierce when he crouches
Fei is a footsie character so there ought to be a good number of opportunities to whiff punish something.

Punishes Ultra, if you have time to react to his ultra with breathless, wouldn’t it be better to wait for the ultra to finish and punish with Souless?

Dp during ok = Reversal Dp
Reversal Dp = Armor breaking properties
Breathless will lose to wake up Dp if he’s in range =(

Breathless starts up in 10 frames
Akuma’s sweep is -9, it will not punish his sweep anymore :frowning:

Breathless is grab immune so it can beat out Akuma’s raging demon
Souless is grab immune as well and can beat raging demon and do more damage

Reasons for Souless vs akuma
It does more damage
Akuma’s low mk xx fireball isn’t a block string so you can ultra between, but not with breathless
At certain ranges and at certain heights, you can punish Akuma’s air hadouken with souless
difficult to do it with breathless becasue it isn’t projectile immune and it travels less distance.

[/quote]

Interesting, I’ll try this out myself later

Makoto gets hit by step kick -> fierce on crouch
and she is pretty vulnerable to Abel’s roll 50/50 set-ups, so Ultra I works well

But ultra II like you pointed out seems like it could counter her options very strongly, I’m surprised I haven’t thought of this myself
It’s throw immune during its start up so it can blow through her karakusa
makoto herself doesn’t have anything throw immune so her options to counter are somewhat limited
it beats her back dash pretty well
and it will absorb her axe kicks,
not to mention the great knock down Ultra II gives Abel good oki… I’ll play this match-up with breathless and see if I can get a feel for these things in practice.

Solid
Mike Chow agrees with your take on Souless w/ Zangief

but honda, Honda players simply love to jump too much, they give themselves away to breathless too often, that along with the step kick -> dropping against him lead me to pick breathless


#10

The reason I use U2 against grief, is funnily the opposite reason to Wrath of Abel.

U2 is much safer imo. Missing a link while trying to combo into U1 can see you eating a SPD.


#11

dont miss the link lol

btw from my experience a really good ibuki wont use kunai vortex much vs abel(unless that abel seems to not know how to deal with it i guess) but more meaty j.hp which can be OSd to beat almost all of abel’s options.

U2 is plausible vs makoto yeah, u can even let it rip from a certain distance lol


#12

Good Points on U1. I still feel that U2 against Fei creates such a strong pressure situation for him when he is in the corner. So having about a 2 ‘backdash spacing’ away (if that makes sense) from Fei when he is in the corner gives Abel a pretty good advantage. You can literally just let the Ultra rip and hold. Fei will have to do something.

-If Fei Chicken Wings trying to get out of the corner, U2 absorbs hit and punishes at that range
-If Fei Ultras, you can just keep holding the charge until the 1st hit absorbs and then release
-If Fei jumps back you can catch him on recovery
* Or if on landing you know he will dp, continue delay of ultra and punish on landing

But even without the corner, you can react to a chicken wing at the aforementioned range anywhere along the screen and punish with u2. Fei’s DP is not armor breaking, breathless will absorb the hit. If fei neutral jumps, breathless rips (hold), then fei dps, one can continue to hold u2 and this will absorb the dp hit. Fei doesn’t have many armor breaking moves, which is why I would say breathless reigns supreme in this match-up. :slight_smile:


#13

You need to get him in the corner first, and usually you’ll be the one in the corner vs Fei LOL


#14

fair enough
but isn’t it so that all special moves in the game gain armor breaking properties on reversal?


#15

[quote=“splurgendii, post:9, topic:160156”]

I thought Breathless was 8 frames?

Need to check this out but I can see breathless not being able to punish a jumped ex headbutt because it has less range than soulless. But then breathless forces Honda to spend meter and use ex headbutt. Decisions, decisions.

Ultra 2 is probably the one must use against Makoto since it balances Abel’s risk reward game against her axe kick and meaty karakusa.


#16

Breathless was 8 frames in Super street fighter…

in Arcade edition it was slowed down to 10 frames and has stayed at 10 frames ever since.


#17

Yeah, just tested it and it doesn’t work.

Ah, wow I see FerdiGuler was advocating using it to absorb Akuma’s sweep not punish it on block in another thread. I’d still rather stick to Ultra 1 for Akuma.


#18

Wow, I actually didn’t know that reversal moves were armor breaking, lol. That explains a lot of stuff, thanks, especially on the armor cancelling side of things. Yes, u2 would get whipped easily on reversals. The way I’ve been using it is by launching the ultra at a distance when fei is in the corner, or after I escaped and tables have turned, then launching the ultra in a non-reversal setting so fei has to do something even if he was just blocking or crouching, but by-golly I have been blind all these years.

More power to u1.


#19

No wonder I was confused. The arcadia mook and shoryuken wiki lists Ultra 2 as 8 frames. Should have spammed Capcom to speed up Ultra 2 for the update.


#20

aww come on man, you shouldve known that U2 aint 8 frames no more…