The frame data....

guile

#1

I’ve read the wiki, I’ve read the threads, I’ve got Ed Ma on podcast…and the only benefit I see for Guile is his light attacks.

When some of you talk about +2 on hit confirm, or -1 on block…I don’t get that. BTW, what does ‘hit confirm’ mean? Obviously when an attack hits, but why is it important? Likewise, why is ‘block confirm’ important?

What does the positive mean for the next attack, or rather, if you have + 2 on hit, and say I want to follow up with a stronger hit, which would have a longer startup, does that mean that the move (say start up on 7fps) would actually be 5 start up frames?

Say his target combo, going from c.mk to f.mp has 0 advantage frames for f.mp, so if another character tries to do a move, and their start up is, say, 3fps, why does their move beat f.mp?

I dont’ have the frame data on hand to reference c.mk>f.mp, but…wait, is the reason that f.mp get beat cuz of the start up frames?
But if that’s the case, why does the frame data reference 0 frame advantage, if c.mk hits?

^^^ This is one example of my confusion. I study the frame data but it just seems a little alien to me at times. Obviously I want to learn where I have the advantages to punish, or to get a poke in, but do I just study Guile’s frame data, or do I have to study all the characters?

Your insight is much appreciated. Thanks.


#2

Frame advantage is an extrapolation. Every move takes a certain amount of time to perform, lets say a punch that takes 20 frames to start and complete. Every move that connects puts your opponent in either hit stun or block stun. In SF4, moves that hit stun the opponent for slightly longer than the same move blocked. So lets say the 20 frame punch put your opponent in 18 frames of stun on block and 22 frames of stun on hit.

This means that if you hit the opponent and they block with this move, you will be unable to do anything for 20 frames and they won’t be able to do anything for 18 frames. This means that they will recover 2 frames before you do. This is what we call frame disadvantage, in this case frame advantage of -2. Its not an actual thing, its just a way of pointing out that they have 2 frames earlier to do something if they choose to do it.

If you hit with this move you recover in 20 frames and they recover in 22 frames. That means you have a frame advantage of +2: you will actually recover 2 frames before they leave hit stun. This is how combos work: if you have a move that puts them in so much hit stun that you can actually hit them with another move before they recover, then those moves will combo.

Hit-confirm is completely different and has very little to do with this. Hit confirming a combo is a psychological player thing. It’s doing moves so that you, the player, have time to recognize whether your opponent is blocking or whether they are hitting. There are a lot of moves that you never, ever want to be blocked: for guile, Flashkick is a great example. If your opponent blocks a flashkick, you are screwed as he can hit you for free. This means that if you do a combo ending in flashkick you have to know you are hitting them.

How do you know you are hitting them? A popular way is to stick jabs in front. If you do c.mp xx flashkick, it is incredibly difficult (basically impossible) for a human to verify that the crouching medium punch hit before canceling into the flashkick. If you instead link jab jab into crouching medium punch into flashkick, you can use the time during the jabs to confirm that the combo is hitting. If they are blocking, then it is an important player skill (called hit confirming) to be able to STOP doing the combo before the flashkick.


#3

“Hit confirm” and “block confirm” has nothing to do with frame data. Hit confirming is the process of recognizing a connected move from a blocked move and following through appropriately. For example, I’m fighting ryu. Ryu does c.lp > c.lp > c.lp and starts walking forward. I would never JUST flashkick or c.mp xx flashkick because it could whiff. So, I do c.lp > c.lp. If those hit, I follow through with c.mp xx flashkick. If he blocks them, then whatever.

Let’s use c.lp again. C.mp is +2 on hit and -1 on block. When these values are mentioned this way, the numbers represent where you stand after your move is complete. This means, that after I hit with a c.mp I have 2/60 (2 frames) of a second to do whatever I want while the opponent will be stuck in hitstun. If the opponent blocked a c.mp, I would be spending 1 frame (1/60 of a second) recovering from my move while the opponent may do whatever he wants in that small amount of time.

C.lp has a startup of 4 frames and is +4 on hit.
C.mp has a startup of 4 frames and is +2 on hit.
C.lp > c.mp will combo since you have 4 frames of advantage after the c.lp and 4 frames of startup on c.mp.
c.mp > c.mp will NOT combo because it does not leave you at a great enough advantage. If it’s startup was 2 frames or if it was +4 it could combo.

This is probably a bad example for you to be looking at as there really is no frame data on the actual target combo itself. Just know that on block, you can be reversal’d inbetween hits. In fact, forget about the target combo’s frame data. Don’t ever think of it again. It would make more sense to look at the c.mp > c.mp example I mentioned above.

Let’s say you were going for c.mp > c.mp on Ryu and you have perfect execution and the first c.mp hit. Now, we know this doesn’t combo. c.mp is two frames too slow to combo into itself. This means in order for your opponent to hit you inbetween those punches, he must perfrom a move that has either…

  1. A two frame startup.
    or
  2. Invincibility on startup

Ryu has no normals with 2 frame start up times. Hell, NO character does. However, Ryu does have an invincible Shoryuken. This is why, despite being at a frame advantage during many poking strings, that certain strings are considered unsafe.

You never have to look at frame data to be good at street fighter. The only reason I do it is because I’m bored out of my mind. Don’t worry about it too much really. Most times, you will discover what you need to know about punishment and interupting poking strings on your own. You will realize after awhile that bison blocks all your flashkicks after he does an lk scissors and you’ll learn that your 4 frame startup flashkick must be too slow to punish that. (LK scissors is +0 on block mind you, meaning no move in the game can punish it. A flashkick would hit him if he did another scissor kick or he threw out a poke though.)

Frame data is still important. It’s how we found that we could punish a blocked ken f.mk with an lk super and how we could punish a blocked EX greenhand with an ultra. If you ever start being pestered by a characters’ particular move that they use to great effect on you consistently, it couldn’t hurt to look up the data on that move.

EDIT
^Mnsvyk beat me to the punch. With a much less long winded explanation than mine too, haha.

DOUBLE EDIT
Ha, wow, I had the eventhubs frame data page open and just saw the dictators hk and ex scissors are -8! Ultra punishable on block!


#4

Thanks for clearing all that up Mnsyk and Slinkun. I was confused about frame data also. You bring up a good point about using the frame data to figure out which moves you can use to punish. I know I’ll be using this information from now on.


#5

effin ey! This is great info, from both of you. Thanks guys, really appreciate it. I’m gonna read this a few times over to get a better understanding.

I’ve been exclusively playing Guile for the last 2 months and I’ve stepped up my game a little (reading up on SRK forums), but I have a lot of room for improvement. I want to get my Guile to tournament level and I want to make it easier on me by learning the frame data.


#6

What’s the b+FP frame data? can’t find it…


#7

^^I think it’s the same as s.FP, cuz technically it’s the same move.