The History of ST at Evo


#1

This is in reply to a post that DSP made in the thread for Midwest Championships. The conversation is getting off topic and deserves its own thread.

Before Evo2K4, I said the DC version was good, which it is.
After Evo2K4, I pointed out a few things that were wrong with it - things that weren’t a problem in the PS1 version.

Before Evo2K5, I said the PS1 version was good, which it did appear to be. JSJ also agreed that it felt pretty accurate.
After Evo2K5, we realized the PS1 version is not so good. I made a mistake.

Before Evo2K7, I said there was something wrong with CCC2, which there is.
After Evo2K7, I still said there was something wrong with CCC2, which there is.

Show me some evidence that supers don’t come out in the PS1 version.

Actually, Chun is marginally worse in the PS1 version. Her medium upkicks are unusable because they recover twice as slow for some reason.

This statement is wrong on two accounts.

  1. I was merely on stage translating for Daigo when he played his exhibition match against Alex Wolfe. I never played the game, or “demoed” it in any way.
  2. I never said it was excellent. From the very first time I played it, I said there was something wrong with it.

I guess you never saw this post

The Dreamcast version is good. It’s not perfect, but it’s definitely good enough for tournament play.

If you disagree, back it up with evidence.

Because I at least take the time to actually test stuff out, instead of just making wild, random claims without backing them up…?

So you think that instead of actually testing out the different versions of ST to see which one is the best, we should just blindly pick one of them (say, CCC2) and go with that, no questions asked? Sorry, but that sounds like a terrible idea to me.

And you can do whatever you want, but I think most people would rather not live in a fantasy land where old characters have faster walking speed than new characters, CCC2 doesn’t have input lag, and Dreamcast O.Sagat’s Tiger Uppercut is toned down…

One frame of input lag from a converter is fairly negligible. Four frames of lag from CCC2 is pretty bad.

And your statement above confuses me. You said that you felt nothing was wrong with CCC2 which has 4 frames of input lag, yet you’re worried about 1 frame of input lag from a converter…? :confused:


#2

Go NKI i love your combo videos!


#3

This is the first and last post i’ll make in this thread, because my original post in the MWC thread is my real feelings on the issue. I’ll just reiterate some points.

-EVO has used 5 different versions of ST in a row, starting in 2k4 and ending this year. Every year, it was somehow NKI who was involved in the supposed testing of the game to find out if it was valid to play at EVO…and then in the inevitable tearing down of the game post-EVO, after everyone complains.

-I have no idea how NKI became the official collective voice of all console ST players, but apparently somehow he did, and EVO does whatever he says. It seems that there is a bandwagon attitude of if NKI says it’s what’s best, it’s what’s best, and we should trust him to make sound judgements. I disagree for reasons you will see below. Also, I do know that NKI is one of the best Chun-Lis in the world, and I do know that he can play every character, but his knowledge of each individual fighter is probably lacking say, compared to a pro in that area. In order to get a real opinion on what version of a game is best, we should be polling the best overall, and not just someone who plays Chun 90% of the time. It doesn’t make sense.

-Despite NKI’s involvement every year, the version of ST used at EVO is shot down immediately afterwards and we go back to square one.

-No console version of ST is arcade perfect, and none ever will be. In other games like MvC2, CvS2, and 3s, there are differences in the console port. However, unlike with ST, the community has collectively said “fuck it, we know there are differences but we don’t want to play games. Let’s setting on THIS version for competitive play, PERIOD, end of story. If people don’t like it, don’t come to the tournament.” However, with ST it seems that certain parties (not just NKI but he is certainly one of them) are so obsessed with getting an arcade-perfect experience, we end up jumping around to a different version of ST every year. This is very bad in multiple ways:

  1. Equipment cost. So far, ST has been on DC, PS1, AE on PS2, CCC2 on PS2, and now we’re back to DC. Not only do you need to own both systems, but you need to own sticks that work with both, and/or converters with minimal input lag (most of which are no longer manufactured). Dreamcasts are no longer easy items to get, and to keep them working can be a nightmare. Also keeping in mind that most ST players haven’t played the DC version since EVO 2k4, until NKI announced it was good with dipswitch changes, and the whole bandwagon thing happened again. He must be right!

  2. Standard version of the game. Because we’ve jumped around from version to version over the years, it is next to impossible to actually practice for one of these events. I mean, in 2004 you had a version where the hitboxes were all wrong, in 2005 the same, in 2006 it wasn’t even the same game, last year we had slowdown and input lag issues. I don’t know about you, but I’m getting tired of a new set of problems to adjust to on a yearly basis. If people would just say “fuck it, we’re using the DC/PS2/whatever version from now on, and that’s that, PERIOD, end of story” then we would actually be able to PRACTICE and adapt to the differences in that version. But that’s never been possible thanks to people like NKI, who ever EVO are playtesting the shit out of the games and telling us how imperative it is that we no longer use that version. Well guess what - here we are in 2008, STHD is being delayed, and we’re back to square fucking one. Holy shit.

Now, we’re going to use a version of ST that is on a console that’s hard to get, will have input lag because of converters, and requires that you get a dipswitch save state on your memory card. I’m sorry, but I just don’t know that many people that still own DC on ST, let alone have that fucking save state. Practice will be nearly impossible for the vast majority of gamers who got interested in ST last year because of CCC2 - it just totally blows my mind that we’re moving backwards instead of forwards here. You can probably count on record low attendance for ST this year, not only because Toyota backed out of sponsorship, but because people are just starting to say “fuck it, I give up, ST will be fucked no matter what we do, so why bother.” This is just a BAD BUSINESS DECISION. The vast majority of ST players had been playing CCC2 and are used to that version.

Now, if you want my opinion on what we should do? For 2008, we are fucked. Since STHD is delayed (and it will pretty much be adopted as the successor to ST as long as there aren’t huge glitches in the game), we are forced into the same situation as always: new version of a game that nobody is used to. EVO once again decided to go with what NKI (and a few other people) have said, and we’re now going back to DC with this new godsent Dipswitch feature. Oh Halleluia praise the ST gods! Dipswitch savestate has come to save us!

…yeah right. I GUARANTEE that after EVO, we will hear the same complaints as always: something is wrong with this version, it isn’t arcade perfect, let’s nitpick it to fucking death and convince the legions of non-pro players that they should go eat elephant feces before booting it up. Now THAT’S productive.

Anyone reading this right now - Do you want to stop this cycle of bullshit? Okay, then please listen to me: When STHD is released, as long as there is not some insanely annoying or broken glitch that makes the game unplayable…please, PLEASE do not listen to the same handful of nitpicking, unsatisfiable people who have torn apart every console version of ST we’ve tried. As both a pro player and a gamer, I know how extremely fucking frustrating it is to be forced to play something different every year, just to be told that what you just played is shit as well. Fuck it. Just put your fingers in your ears and stop listening to these stubborn assholes. STHD IS the new ST, period, end of story, game fucking over.

And now back to GTAIV…


#4

I think ill trust what sirlin has to say about ST HD when its released, seeing as he is working on the project first hand and all.


#5

I’m imagining the toughest badass sherriff and the most ruthless outlaw in the wild wild west fingering their holdstered revolvers and staring each other down on a dustry street, while children, women, and fully grown men scream and run indoors for safety.


#6

I like DSP’s sentiment. I’m not a huge ST player any ways (I just play it cuz its SF and it’s quick and dirty) so the only thing that is going to help bring cohesiveness to the scene really is ST HD. Arcade perfect ST would be nice but that will NEVER EVER happen. Especially now that Evo is a console only event. ST is the stupidest fucking fighter of all the Evo games and it’s because of all of this hardcore ass nitpicking that only people over the age of 30 care about. I’m glad I can play 3rd Strike on PS2 despite the differences and play with people who can deal with the differences. It’ll be nice to see old school ST one more year at Evo but, the bitching that will come after will be a true nightmare. It really sucks that so much is “invalidated” each year due to people being super picky about ST.


#7

I really don’t see what the big problem with using the Dreamcast version is. It seems like the logical choice if HD isn’t out. Who still plays CCC2?


#8

I play it for the shooters and the beus


#9

Not to start anything, but everyone was doing the same thing when we were told CCC2 was going to be “arcade perfect”, and 99% of SRK posters just take that as fact based on EXACTLY what you are saying until it was proven otherwise.

I don’t trust anyone until I play it myself.

Another thing, it is nonsense to have all these versions each year. It’s almost embarrassing to be quite frank. Best solution for this year is to replace the tournament with something else (Guilty Gear AC) and then next year and from then on, use STHD.

Even if the Dreamcast version is the best version, the whole tournament should just be cancelled one year. I don’t see the issue with it. SBO resurrects tournaments when they want. Heck, do Hyper Fighting for one year.


#10

Why can’t Evo use an emulated ST in MAME/nFBA or something? I mean, couldn’t they somehow get approval from Capcom if there was some sort of legality issue involved? They are clearly a big enough tournament to work out something like that. I’m pretty sure most ST players on SRK have access to ST in emulation, amirite?

Or better yet get a buncha copies of SF2X:GMC from Japan and set it up on superguns.


#11

emulated ROMS? That’s a whole heap of issues that I would not want to even start.

Superguns? And how is everyone going to use their custom sticks? Superguns were used for 3s at EVO2K4, and people complained about the Super Gun sticks being used.

Just cancel it and put something else in its place for one year until STHD is ready and becomes the norm.


#12

This is what I said in the other thread so agreed, it only makes sense.


#13

replace it with marvel 3v3


#14

Phil - I actually agree with your over-all sentiment that “having to use a different version of ST every year is stupid”. I just have two main problems with your posts:

  1. You fail to realize that we’ve made considerable progress. We now know that the DC version is the best home version. CCC2, the PS1 version, AE…we’ll never use them again, because now we know.

  2. You regularly make up random stuff and pass it off as truth, like this:

PROVE IT. Unless you’re holding some secret information, there is no evidence to show that the PS1 version or the DC has any difference in hit boxes.


#15

nothing


#16

The DIP switches really don’t make a huge difference. They only correct very minor things, like Ken/Sagat/Dhalsim being able to do reversal super, being able to throw an opponent who was dizzied by a throw, etc.

If you want to see exactly what they do, go here:
http://nki.combovideos.com/dc.html


#17

Isn’t that where laugh comes in with his Jamma-PSX adapter? Unless of course it’s not supergun compatible yet which I think I read and or ST doesn’t work for it yet.


#18

Laugh still hasn’t sent out his first batch yet. and they need to be tested anyway to see if they’re really tournament viable options.

Besides that, we then get back into the argument a few years ago of why is ST on arcade/supernova and 3s,MvC2 and CvS2 aren’t.


#19

Thanks for clearing that up.


#20
  1. DSP, I hope you mean ST:HD The Arcade Perfect Mode is the new ST and not the Remixed mode.

  2. You are not a “pro player.” Are you making a complete living off Street Fighter? No, you’re not.

  3. ST is a classic and the oldest Street Fighter still being selected at Evo. Evo should make an exception for this game and “honor” it by having it be the only arcade tourney at Evo. Console versions will never do this game justice.

I can bring two Japanese cabinets myself. Surely, we could get 4 or 5 more.

  1. Old men ST players are picky and fossils themselves. They do not like change.