The ITEMS thread - usage and defense


#1

i really hate to start a new thread, especially with the hot button topic of items, but i felt this needed to be addressed for any proof that most items are indeed combatable…

after testing, i feel there are some items that should be in and should be out.

but personal feelings aside, this is about finding which weapons are TOO GOOD and which ones are beatable.

so post up your counter tactics for weapons. i’ll try and keep up with this thread and update first post to whatever people find that’s solid.


HAMMER DEFENSE

After 15 minutes of testing, i’ve never been so scared… to pick up a hammer.

the hammer has so many holes. granted, the reward for hitting someone with a hammer is very good… and usage, well… you basically walk forward and if it hits, you’re good.

but in all honesty, out of all of the weapons, this easily ranks bottom 4-5 in flexibility. you basically can walk forward or jump into people to get hits… you control nothing else.

this in turn opens up a defensive game that will make it very hard to hit anyone with a decent amount of game.

first step to defending the hammer is to get either on the same level as the hammer or below. being on top of the hammer is indeed asking to be killed. do not jump or escalate in anyway… stay the same level as the hammer or below.

now, the hammer user has really only one usage… walk into you. and the hammer… is easily blocked.

when you block the hammer, it will push you backwards. it basically spaces out so you get more time to recharge your shield and more time and space for him to travel. from there you can counter roll backwards to put even more space inbetween the two. you can even roll forward after the initial block to force the hammer player to turn around, and that in turn takes time. what ever you do… do not dodge and don’t roll if you haven’t blocked. that’s the biggest mistake you can make.

if the hammer player is jumping in, it is no different. same story, same result.

but if you look at the serious holes in the hammer, it comes from being hit while using the hammer. with the hammer, you have no double jump, no air recover, air dodge… you get hit, you are a sitting duck… now here’s where it gets scary for the hammer user…

with a perfect block on the black hammer, you get a free throw (semi dependant on range and character size, but really consistant enough to try). you might even get more. i was able to perfect block, luigi up+b, and knocked the hammer out of him and used it on him as he was above me. but throw allows you to dictate soooo much.

try this out for yourself… stand with your back to the edge of a platform and have someone run at you with the hammer, and perfect block throw them back off the platform. they have no options to get back on. the least they can hope for is that the hammer timer runs out so they can recover.

yellow hammer has a faster attack rate, and most characters can still get throws, but tether throws are not free from what i’ve seen.

now, even without platform stages, you can still use the throw to get some really stupid combos that you aren’t usually able to get… no air dodge or tech roll recovery… they can only start swinging the hammer from thier natural recovery time, and depending on what thier percentage is, it could be a while.

feel free to mess with this yourself, as i could be wrong about a couple of things, or character matchups may make things more complicated, but it was fairly consistant with the 10 or so characters we used.


Fan spam defense

first off, let me say that big characters with the fan are automatically owned by many small characters with the fan. yes, free mid stage infinites, 999% unescapable, no effort whatsoever. fan doesn’t disappear after usage either.

but not all characters are perfect with the fan, and depending on the character you’re using you may be able to escape fan spam.

when being hit, you are airborne slightly, which is why you can’t block your way out of it. but being airborne, you can control yourself slightly to move yourself within the fan attacks, and even move the other player. by doing so you can even get some clean escapes. try to hold block as well while moving, as if they let up for a second or try to use a quick smash while you’re flailing wildly, you’ll block and recover fine.

the following was tested using t.link as the test subject vs characters a spamming the fan:

Mario - towards his upper back, then holding towards his back foot (difficult)
Donkey kong - Move towards his back; clean escape (easy)
Link - None found
Samus - Towards her back foot, clean escape (easy)
Kirby - None found for normal timing; for rapid spam hold up, may still get caught
Fox - Towards his back, clean escape (easy)
Pika - towards his back, clean (easy), straight up (medium)
Marth - Towards his back foot, clean escape (easy)
Mr G&W - Wiggle between his front and his back, escape toward his up back (intermediate/difficult)

and so on. if you can get out clean, your best bet is towards the back foot. if that doesn’t work, try up, and then try wiggling from front to back, or from high to low. if that doesn’t do anything for you by the time you reach 999% just hold block and hope they aren’t asshole enough to stall out the match.

but with that being said, there is still some ways to combat the fan even if you are stuck. with the minor air control you have, you are still able to control where the other person moves… and if they try to readjust, you have your window out.

your goal if possible should be to guide the other person towards the edge of the stage. if that happens, you will eventually find your way out… you’ll pop out the back side downwards slightly, and try your best to grab the edge, as them standing on it may be blocking you.

how you move the other person is as follows…

  1. Move to the side of which you want to push them (ie, if you want to push them left, travel to thier right side
  2. simply wait for them to move naturally with thier spam. holding straight down will also make them move slightly faster.
  3. once at the edge, you’ll eventually pop out, and can grab the ledge and hopefully get back on without getting re fanned.

granted, if you get caught, by the time you reach the edge, you may be at 100%+ if you’re lucky.



#2

Against Hammers, Wolf’s up+B(directed horizontally) outprioritizes the hammer and knocks the opponent away so you have enough time to do it again. You can do this until they get knocked off the stage it seems.


#3

Exactly why fan should be banned.

http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0321080249wo3.jpg


#4

yeah, in general i find the fan to be perhaps the best weapon… it has soooo munch going for it. but that all depends on who’s using it (as stated) and who is being fanned.

but by a spamming you effectively cover all attacks coming directly at you.
it neuters thrown items.
neuters some projectiles.
many hit behind and on top of the character, elminating even more avenues to attack.
never runs out/unlimited usage

even with a decent way of combatting it, it is THE item to get for some characters.

one thing i forgot to mention, but should’ve been obvious.

if someone’s spamming fan on a walkoff stage, you can push them to a ko if they don’t let you go. not too bad, but still… you’re gonna be down a serious amount of life when they respawn.

i’m not a big fan (no pun intended) of this weapon as of right now… maybe there are better ways of escaping a spam?


#5

What are effective attacks against hammer users if I’m Ganondorf?


#6

Fan is hacked with certain characters. Marth can smack the crap outta you until you get pulled next to him and then it’s sayonara, instant Dolphin Slash to the face.


#7

Zelda + Timer Combo by phanna


#8

marth isn’t all that bad to deal with together. even d3 gets out clean. you really shouldn’t take more that 4-5 hits with the fan with marth…

bigger characters may need to go over him slightly, but at that point, marth is already going to lose you. most characters can just go straight through him and escape clean.

its no link fan spam, that’s for sure.


as for ganondorf, you have a decent amount of options outside of perfect block, throw.

just messing around with battling the black hammer straight on, you can actually block, jab, then follow up depending on thier percentage. when they’re high enough that they can be knocked down by a nuetral a, then dash attack until they cough up the hammer.

you can even try to out range it straight on with a nuetral a… and even if it clashes and the hammer user keep going at you… hold down block after the clash, and the next hit will be a perfect block, which means you can throw if they’re close enough… if they’re too far, jab is free, and you technically can even get a fsmash free as well.

dsmash can also outrange it, but in all honesty, its a fairly big risk playing with hammer wacky hitboxes… if i was playing ganondorf, i’d go for block, jab or perfect block throw. if they jump at you, block and roll underneath.

i was messing with this earlier, but try it out for yourself in training, and see what fits you.

yellow hammer is a bit trickier, and i’d just stick to blocking and mixing up rolls, or perfect blocking and throwing.

ganon can get a nice little chain grab on hammer users at lower-mid percentages too… perfect block, down throw, walk towards, down throw, walk towards, etc, until they cough up the hammer.


#9

Good stuff so far on testing the new hammers.

Don’t forget the person with the hammer also has the option to stop and watch your shield go down. This makes perfect blocking less of a reliable option. And if that’s your only defense against a golden hammer…ouch. But yeah, ledge stalling is pretty good against it too, so it’s not all hopeless.

However, there is a situation that I think you’re overlooking which makes the hammer much more powerful, assuming the head doesn’t fall off. This is when you (or your opponent) is in the air. If your opponent grabs a hammer while you are in the air, it’s not easy to deal with. You can’t really airdodge past it, unless a situation arises where you can fall past your opponent AND he mistimes his jump. There are some arial attacks that can beat the hammer, but they often have to be spaced just right.

Your best bet, depending on the stage, is often to try to airdodge to a ledge, where you can then stall. But I think you can only do this if you were off the stage to begin with. If you’re above and center, you’re basically screwed.

It’s highly situational, so it’s not like this will make the hammer an instant ban. But it is something to add.


#10

in a few months everyone will see why items suck in tournament play so i suggest you don’t even bother


#11

:u: Can you please stop trolling? Thanks.

What about explosive crates (not regular crates that explode but the ones emblazoned with the fire emblem)? They’re pretty strong, and they actually turn out to be more useful for some of the weaker characters who happen to have some fire attacks (like Mario, for example), who can detonate them with one hit.

Anyway, the obvious defense would be to just try to avoid hanging around these things or trying to pick them up, as it turns out that any fire or explosive attack will detonate them. Snake can pretty much just drop a grenade next to it and then move out, and it’s VERY hard to spot it.


#12

Ha, nice. Maybe you can do the same with Captain Falcon’s knee.


#13

yeah, no doubt, there’s still a gameplan with the hammers. if allowed to evolve, each weapon will have its own gameplan for usage and defense. its no where near perfect right now.

but yeah… edge stalling does seem to be the most solid, but i’m sure almost everyone who’s played this game can see this is the best way of dealing with a ton of situations from items to final smashes.

and quite a few characters can still try to respond to the hammer after being hit as well. bowser downb will beat it clean almost every time. g&w has dair, but if it doesn’t knockdown because of percentage, you’ll just end up getting hit again. link and t.link can pogo along the top of the hammer until they get a clean hit.

and characters who have a move that moves them horizontally in the air really fast like space animals can just flat outmove the hammer user to get back on clean.

all in all, i’m sure there are a ton of answers, but not every characters’ may be so clear.