The Ken vs Ken wakeup game

would you guys agree with this?

A: Ken standing up, next to B
B: Ken on the floor waking up

here are the assumptions:

Ken A’s options:
MP HP - meaty.
c.LK x 2 - meaty.
UOH / b.MK - meaty.
block low - done far enough for a throw to miss.
parry low - SGGK (parry low into karathrow/MP option select).
throw - done at the earliest possible moment.

Ken B’s options:
c.LK - early enough to beat throw attempt.
block high
block low
parry high
parry low
throw - done at the earliest possible moment.
DP - fierce DP. reversal.

in the lower right table, the colors just denote who will be dealing substantial damage.
blue: “A wins”
red: “B wins”

for example, row 4 column 2 of the lower right box shows what happens when the Ken on the floor (B) tries to parry high while the crowding Ken (A) does c.LK x 2 - the low shorts win, and Ken A can add a SA3 after that.

note that the 0s just indicate events where neither character will be taking damage. a neutral event could still mean loss in momentum. “block low” is in blue because Ken A can deal significant damage as a result.

would you agree that these are the most important options for the two Kens?

  • SA3 and EX DP were left out since they’re the same as fierce DP, except they burn meter.
  • tick throws technically don’t occur on wake up. in any case, leaving them out simplifies things.

is the listing of who “wins”, as presented by the chart, accurate?

The person on the ground always technically is at more of a disadvantage than the person who is standing. In 3S you have more options to escape than in other games. Yet…just like any SF game when you knock your opponent on the ground you get to make a move technically before they do and have a lot more options to deal damage.

Some of those options will vary depending on the situation. For example, most Kens don’t do the axe kick meaty since they’re trying to get both hits to connect. Therefore it’s not uncommon to be thrown or c.jabbed out of it. Also, if Ken A throws as early as possible, the wakeup Ken can’t c.LK him out of it unless the throw was delayed. Also there are a lot of other variables, for example Ken A may not necessarily be out of throw range if he decides to block low. And walking back (and involuntarily blocking high) is probably more common for Ken A than blocking low.

While the chart is useful to give new people a general idea of what beats what, I’d say it’s a better idea to react to stuff on the fly instead of having preset solutions in mind. By playing a lot and practicing basic defense, you’ll get a feel for it.

three important options that are missing

crouch tech

option parry (for the attacking ken)

and jumping/dashing back (obviously not much of an option in the corner, unless you jump out of the corner)

After wakeup there’s 5 frames where the player waking up has throw invincibility, c.LK has a 3 frame start up, so the c.LK as early as possible does beat a throw attempt. Amongst c.LK; jump, c.LP, c.MP and shoryuken are other candidates to beat throws but it’s a guess, trying to jump against a meaty for example can turn out into an immediate suicide. This is why wakeup throws are more effective then tick throws, there’s no timing indication on them and so, to beat them you’d have to either guess your tech or attack early.

For the rest the chart is pretty ok, you might want to note frame advantages since the color already shows who’s doing damage.

i guess i should’ve clarified; “block low” is just where the attacking Ken moves back far enough to bait a throw whiff or DP from the Ken getting up.

Ken A: attacking
Ken B: on the ground

just to confirm, are all of the following statements (corrections) true?

1. “Ken B’s c.LK doesn’t beat Ken A’s throw, if the throw was done as early as possible.”

i’m kinda split between GaijinBlaze and GoLD-ReaVeR on this one. according to KaraThrow, Ken’s c.LK’s startup is 3 frames longer than Ken’s throw’s startup. i’m not sure how the invincibility on wakeup works, so i’ll have to leave it to you guys to explain.

2. “the only way for Ken B to escape Ken A’s throw is to throw escape (standard or crouch tech) OR to DP/Super.” just following on from question 1, on whether B’s c.LK beats A’s throw.

3. “walking back (to block a DP or bait a throw) is an important option, and should not be counted to be the same blocking low.”

about that…
4. what are the advantages and disadvantages of “walking back” over “blocking low” for the attacking Ken?

the main disadvantage i see is that the Ken on the floor could c.LK x SA3 him (unlikely, but possible). as far as advantages go, it looks the same as block low if the Ken on the floor chooses his wakeup at random.
5. if Ken B ignores what Ken A is doing as B gets off the floor, is Ken A better off blocking low or walking back?**

is option parry the same as the SGGK that was on the 3S General Strategy board? that’s basically parry (high or low) > kara throw with MP. if the parry occurs, close MP comes out, Ken chains HP x SA3 (if parry doesn’t occur, Ken throws).

6. if option parrying refers to the parry/throw option select, does fierce DP generally screw those who try to option parry?

for example, if Akuma does his SGGK kara demon, the 2nd and 3rd hit of the fierce DP will still eat him up. is it fair to say the same thing for Ken’s SGGK and option parries? i was sure it wasn’t possible to block after the parry in this case, but i can’t confirm.

8. also, in general how feasible is it for Ken A or Ken B to jump?

i understand that, as a general rule, whichever Ken in the air is screwed - if Ken A jumps and Ken B whiffs a throw, Ken B can still fierce DP as Ken A lands. i’m not sure what happens in general though, when one jumps straight up and the other is on the floor and a little surprised. say we take 1000 instances of one Ken jumping vs Ken on ground but surprised at the jump - who’s better off on average?

thanks for the input guys, it’s been very helpful. i’ve been playing 3S for a while, but it’s been hard to teach this aspect to friends getting into the game because it’s more natural to me than anything. hopefully this helps articulate what typically happens, and why.


option parry is like. meaty, (you think they will mash crouch tech) down parry into combo.

sggk with ken is useless, you dont ever need it. just low parry into

also you dont seem to understand how meatys work. throws have start up, meaty moves hit while they are still waking up, effectively stuffing any non invincible move.

walking back and crouch blocking is better because of the throw whiff option, if you just sit there blocking right next to them you might get thrown, people like to mash throw when you are close.

i believe that c.LK will beat throw. i’d like to be able to test this somehow

why do you say that?

also i’m sorry about the confusion concerning the crouch block. i meant “crouch block out of throw range”. crouch blocking at point blank isn’t a good idea, and shouldn’t be on the chart.

thanks for the correction. i still don’t understand option parrying completely, but i will as soon as the search function stops being a bloody wanker.

i’d like to think so too. but Ken has 3 more frames startup on the low short than on the throw, so unless the Ken on the floor has invinicibility (or throw invincibility) getting up, it seems like he’s getting thrown. it’d be nice to confirm though.

Like I said, after wakeup, the guy waking up has 5 frames throw invincibility, which means in the 5 frames after he just woke up he can’t be thrown. The guy doing a meaty is forced to delay his throw by 3 frames to have it connect on the 6th frame after wake up.

About point 4, there’s no point in just walking backwards if you’re gonna do it late, since you’re playing with Ken, backdash is fast enough to avoid DPs, throws and what not and allow you to block anything slower.

Karathrow’s framedata is sometimes inaccurate, since the version used in general is Street Fighter III Third Strike ver.A while Karathrow uses framedata from Street Fighter III Third Strike ver.B. In the general strategy there’s a link posted to a japanese site with framedata on it, that framedata is accurate.

Meaty c.LK or wakeup c.LK? I tried the latter vs throw just now and occasionally (not often at all) throwing does grab the c.LK before it hits. But since it did happen sometimes, it has to be possible. I have never noticed any wakeup throw invulnerability in my life, but if it’s there it has to be less than 5 frames.

If anyone wants to explain how people can take Gold Reaver seriously, be my guest.

Is wake up shoryu better than wake up super considering damage and the possibility of having the attack blocked. I try to stay away from wake up super, but there are times that I put in two :qcf: for fun, see a meaty attack coming, and react by drumming kicks. For whatever reason, I’ve never thought to use shoryu instead.

wakeup super is terrible, and should never be done under any circumstances. wakeup fierce dp or wakeup fierce dp into super are way better options

epsilon is correct.

GoLD-ReaVeR is also correct. But this is why it’s common practice to input a parry command during those few frames before you’re able to throw. While delaying your throw by 3 frames you could be pressing toward or down, for example, before you input the throw. Thus if an attack connects with you while you’re inputting a parry, you’ll parry, and if no attack connects you’ll still perform a throw which beats blocking.

kara throw frame data iirc is dc which was based on version b not acctually ver b

As for the throw invulnerability I did some quick testing and it does seem to be 5 frames or so as stated. (I was able to use q’s crouching jab to tick out of meaty throw with its 5 frame startup but was grabbed out of his sa 1 with its 6 frame startup on wakeup reversal)

How i tested well lets just say it involved mak, Q, parry training and my hrap’s rappid fire settings:wonder:

And yes wakeup shoryu>wakeup shippu by a landslide but in a very few and rare cases wakeup shippu >shoryu

Out of curiosity, when would those rare occasions be?

Probably against characters who can effectively meaty mixup from outside effective shoryu range. Like Chun-Li c.MK / kara-throw / UOH mixup. The range at which she can do this is significantly better than Dudley’s meaty mixup range for example. Dudley is point-blank while Chun is generally at max c.MK range (tip of the toe range).

Except, even in that situation it isn’t a particularly good idea to do a reversal shippu. In that particular situation Chun is actually free to delay her attack for quite a few frames before doing anything which allows her to block on reaction to the flash. The only way you’d hit her is if she stuck out a c.MK or throw, both of which are exceptionally fast and is therefor unlikely to happen at the same time as the shippu.

But as a general rule, anything done on anticipation (meaning, reversals without confirming) can be baited. So, the only time I could see it being “useful” is when it’s done on reaction to something obvious/telegraphed.

Another rare one would be where you’d need just 38 damage or less to knock out your opponent and win the 2 or the 3rd round:P

At the risk of a red parry of course. Which, people actually tend to practice vs shippu.