why do you guys hate on alex soo much? i dont think he’s low tier at all. if not mid, high. his only bad matchup is against chun, other than that he can fight anyone else pretty well. and from all the posts i think urien should be higher because well, i seen RX vids. as well as KSK vids for alex :karate:
It depends on the player not the character. Yun is at the top for that busted super of his. Ken is not that great imo, just very versatile and player friendly. He’s not that much of a problem a lot of characters to beat.
The fact that you’re making this tier list makes it all the more pointless than the other threads; and this statement proves it. Akuma and Yang are all over japanes tounaments. Akuma always has been and Yang has just came out of no where. The winner of the Co-Op Cup 4 was a Yang player and K.O even got took out by a Yang player, so that takes it off the paper and put to use.
Imo, I think Yang should be high, Akuma should be mid and Oro should be low.
Oro is a strong character, but he needs to get in close to do any real damage. His s.hk owns a lot, but he needs more to be a better character. Akuma has the potential to match Ryu and Even Ken, but as everyone knows his stamina has a massive effect on his game, so I’d notch him down to mid. Yang, well, he may be weak, but he’s got good stamina and an amasing rush-down game. He has all the potential as Yun, but only lacks in the damage department, so his match ups aren’t too disimlar to Yun’s. Players just need to work a bit harder and not concentrate on loads of bull shit to gain wins. He has lots of meter for EX’s with SAII and Seiu Enbu(?) is great for for overhead, mix-up madness. Statisticaly, I’d put him in this tier, but players are going to have to work quite hard to get this result out of him.
Edit When I think about it, I think Yang would generally be mid tier. But if a player worked hard enough he would easily be high. So I’m in kind of a tip between high and mid. Maybe even high-mid.
beat me to that.
and I mostly agree with the japanese chart.
It’s this forum that overrates some characters and underrates others.
WTF are you even talking about? He’s the only character in the game that can take away 40-45 percent of your life bar without using ANY super meter. That is a BIG PROBLEM! Cross up j.MK, close MP,HP target combo, LP shoryu, kara shoryu = more damage than should be allowed by law without a super bar. You are right about Ken being versatile. He makes a swiss army knife look like a broken can opener. Way too many options. You can play him defensively like Chun Li or offensive as hell like Akuma. Either way you’ll have options to dish damage and keep your defenses up. Has ways to verify his SA3 whether you are crouching or standing so you are never really safe from getting hit by his super. If you’re standing obviously you can get hit by low short/forward to super. If you’re crouching, fast as anything b+MK or a UOH can catch you and be verified into super.
Ken just doesn’t have any glaring disadantages and way too many options to deal damage. He doesn’t have a super that can take away half your life or a c.MK that can be verified into super by a monkey but…he still has way too many options and ways to verify supers to not see him as a true threat. Especially when he can do so much damage without bar.
About Kalypso’s comments on Yang and Akuma…like the guy above said, Yang is doing really well in tournaments lately and people are always picking up new stuff with Akuma. Akuma’s way too versatile despite his low defense to not be a threat in tournaments. Not to mention he gets frame advantage on everything outside of his sweep. Very hard to punish.
Oh and that chart is good. Providing I’m reading the chart right it says Ibuki vs. Ryu 6-4 in favor of Ibuki? Interesting. She must beat out all of his pokes pretty well or something
Ibuki vs Ryu is rated 5-5 in the chart. She has the 6-4 advantage over Urien (who’s right next to Ryu in the chart, you probably mixed them up.)
Anyways there are 3 mistakes (don’t add up to 10) in the chart: Remy - Q 4-4; Oro-Ibuki 5-4 and Makoto-Twelve 7-2. Not that it would make an impact on the overall rankings.
There’s some stuff I don’t agree with on that chart, but let’s have a specific topic of discussion for now:
YANG: High or Mid Tier?
ORO: High, Mid or Low Tier?
AKUMA: High or Mid Tier?
I’m thinking Yang is high, I’ve gotten some pms of matches and he’s doin really good. Oro I put at mid, he’s closer to low than any of the other 3 here. Akuma, I’d say mid. What about yal?
Arcadia’s Oro matchups are about right, though I’d bump Oro:Elena to 4:6 and Oro:Q to 7:3. That gives him +5 overall, tied with Ryu and Urien.
Dirty’s impression of Oro’s matchups: http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~dirty/oro.htm
He’s a bit more generous and gives Oro +8.5.
It’s really all opinion. Here’s mine for the nothing it’s worth:
Top: Yun Chun Ken
High: Makoto Dudley Urien
Mid: Oro Akuma Yang Ryu
Low-Mid: Necro Ibuki Elena Alex Remy
Low: Hugo Q Sean Twelve
Everyone one the same line is tied with each other.
the chart was compiled by this staff of players:
RX, Senaka, AFM, KSK, KO, Koushun, Kuroda, Kokujin, Zangoef, C13, Sugiyama, Spellmaster J, Thanatos, Nuki, Hayao, Piero, Boss, Match, Mesta, Ruu, YSB, Yamazaki.
Each of those knows the game better and has more experience than 99.9% of this forum (myself included) so while it might be not perfectly accurate, it’s probably more accurate than anything we could make for ourselves.
The problem with tournament play like that is crappy characters getting better ratings than they deserve because amazing players play them. In japan alot of the best players play the worst characters, so their chart of wins/losses IS NOT a tier list, it’s their win/loss record. Maybe if the chart included 2-3 years of tournament play in japan/america high and low level, it would be fairly accurate. For example, compile the final 4 in 100 tournaments and put the stats into a graph. That would mean somethin. A case study of 22 players when there are 19 characters has too much room for error. Not enough data.
Anyway, we need some more oro input.
see i agree with this chart BUT doesnt urien lose to akuma, yang and ibuki pretty badly? sure urien can decently fight yun, chun and ken but all those lower than him giving him problems on wake up should lower him down to mid.
i would switch urien with yang, cus yang might be limited but he does have easy access to meter with high, low and command throw to slashes.
Dude these are the best players in the world who compiled the tier list. Why would you still need to argue about it. They know the game much better than we do and they get to play against much better players than us on a daily basis. The avg players over there is probably better than your JWong.
If your own tier list looks much diff then it’s either 'cause
1)you’re not very good at this game
2)your competition isn’t very good
Um, how about we actually make a tier list, with the format kalypso came up with?
Top, High, Middle, Low, Bottom.
No High-Mid or Low-Mid, that just gets really confusing and subjective on the player.
Yeah, it confused me too, everyone uses differant terms. Top, High, Mid, Low and Bottom seem to make the most sense.
he doesnt lose to them but they are slightly disadvantaged matchups, still, he does way better than most characters against Yun Chun Ken (4-6s is nothing to complain about vs them lmao) his bad matchups are NOTHING but 4s.
to whoever said hugo is mid: no, hes not, he has shit priority and can be easily outzoned, and his primary damage comes from either a clap or command throw, which requires on top of someone. he has a couple good pokes but nothing astounding.
yang has everything yun has but with some key differences, his damage is much less dependant on having a super activated, and he has better priority because he can confirm a c.MK into damage and knockdown or just use his chops to outprioritize some normals flat out. sure he cant do half a bar of damage (which is why hes lower than yun) but he has Dive Kicks, and Dive Kicks are retarded good.
gouki is able to shut out characters pretty good, he has tons of offensive and mixup options with some sick damage off random hits, he needs to be on offense at all times making sure the opponent doesnt control his flow so he doesnt get hit, and he has shoto mixups. nothing to complain about there.
urien, again, is low because he has 4-6s flying all around town, which is better than most characters except yun (who has absolutely NO BAD MATCHUPS, just even ones) and ken (who has a slight disadvantage vs yun and chun). if urien could beat ibuki, ryu, gouki and yang with some good matchups he’d easily be high tier, but he has ass for defensive options, which kind of fuck him up vs shotos, ibuki and yang.
that arcadia list is pretty much dead on, although i’d probably give Q a little more credit than he deserves, not much more, one place higher at absolute best. i’d actually rate ibuki to be tied with urien and ryu too.
My definition of qualities for tiering: The potential of a character to win a game against the proportions of characters they are likely to face.
Explained: If Character B can beat characters C-Z, but always loses to Character A, and Character A is all anyone uses in tournaments, Character B is bottom tier.
Applied: People are talking about Uriens weaknesses vs Ibuki, and using it to place him mid-tier. In reality, he has much bigger problems with Ken/Akuma, if not because they are harder for him to beat but because there is a much higher chance he’ll play them. So his effectiveness, tiered, would be much less affected by his play vs ibuki compared to his play vs ken.
Also, my problem with that Japanese chart is how FEW matches there are. I don’t think that proves anything personally. With 22 people, that’s a very select crowd, even if they ARE the best 22 players. Each has his own weaknesses and strengths, chance to beat certain other players, and chances to lose vs other characters.
Explained: If RX and Arlieth play ALL the time, and both know exactly how to beat each other, and RX/Arlieth are 2 of 3 total people playing Makoto and Urien in the study (I know Arlieth isnt in there, it’s an Example) then the results for makoto/urien are tainted. Likewise, if the only Twelve player has alot of experience fighting Ken, and the Ken player has no experience fighting Twelve, Twelve will have a higher chance of winning than if the preceeding were not true. ALOT of these problems arise in a 22 person case study.
I’d say, the top 100 players, catalogued for a year in tournament play, put into a chart would make the best tier list there is. % wins determaining tiering.
Uh… I thought the list was made w/ them discussing the game, not actually playing against each other. Or am I mistaken?
no you’re right, they discussed the game. Playing against each other would have been the dumbest thing ever, since
- there wasn’t a player for every character
- some characters had more than one player representing
- most important, players with the exact same skill level just don’t exist.
A serious matchup chart is made considering, if both characters can use all their techniques at their fullest potential, which character has more options, better priority, better defence against the opponent’s tools, and better damage potential
i.e. (just a rough shot): Makoto is at a disadvantage against Chun Li because though she has more damage potential with her sick combos and mixups, Chun beats many of her moves, has tools to defend against Makoto’s rushdown, and Makoto herself doesn’t have great defence against a Chun with meter.
But, at is says the chart, it 6-4 at most. The fact that that at low-mid levels Chun can destroy Makoto does mean nothing at all on the strenght of the character, only that Chun is more user friendly and easier to play.
If a character is underplayed it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not good.
Oro is quite good, it’s really only the presence of Chun Li in the game that cripples him, but anyone who thinks he’s below the level indicated on the arcadia chart has no idea on what he’s talking about. Not many play him because he’s unhortodhox and not easy to play
Yang is another underplayed character in relation to his strenght, but I always thought he was just under the top tiers and I’m glad the arcadia chart actually confirmed it. What draws players away from him is, perhaps, that you need to have a solid defense with him (no real defensive moves and bad stamina), and that he can’t deal huge damage with a single combo. It takes a player who knows the 3s system well and can use everything it can offer, so a mid-level Yang is nothing to fear but in the hands of a really good player he really shines as a STRONG character.
Btw, it’s fun how everyone who doesn’t play Urien seriously overrates him.
He’s a good character, but nowhere near the top as many suggest. He doesn’t have horrible matchups, but they gave him 6 disadvantages that I fully agree over (imho Yang should be there too, I’d like to ask why they put it even to RX), and his defense sucks.
Yes, Yang and Dudley are definitely better than him overall (and the chart reflects that).
We play Urien because he’s stylish and he feels rewarding when you pull out some crazy stuff