=== The New Low Tier Thread <(''<) ===


#1

Hi I’m Higher-Jin

I know how hard it is to find information on low tier characters in MVC2 and actually for the most part you may have to find out alot of the info out yourself

I wanted to make a low tier thread so all the low tier players can come together and anyone curious enough to try out low tiers can get some good data.

In order to be succesful with low tiers you have to be willing to put more time into them you have to be more technical than most simply because alot of low tier characters have very specific strenghts and tend not to have stuff that is so easily exploited.

A great starting point on learning a low tier character is their stamina and frame data.

Here is the Stamina Ratings

Stamina Tiers: (originally posted by magnetic hail in srk, but he did not make this)

the life bar is 143 points longs. The average jab does about 4-5 damage, and the average fierce does about 12-16. Dan’s suicide move (Otoko Michi) takes off 100 points of damage. From highest to lowest, the stamina tiers run:

75%: (highest) Sentinel
81%: Colossus
87%: Blackheart, Hulk, Juggernaut, Zangief
93%: Captain America, Dr. Doom, Omega Red, Rogue*, Silver Samurai**,
Thanos, Tron Bonne
100% (average stamina) Amingo, Cable, Captain Commando, Charlie,
Cyclops, Gambit, Guile, Iron Man, Jin, M. Bison, Ruby Heart, Ryu,
Sakura, Venom, War Machine
106%: B.B. Hood, Chun-Li, Hayato, Jill, Ken, Magneto, Megaman,
Sabretooth, Spiral, Storm
112%: Cammy, Dan, Dhalsim, Felicia, Iceman, Pyslocke, Shuma Gorath
118%: Marrow, Morrigan, Sonson
125%: Anakaris, Spider-Man, Strider, Wolverine
137%: Akuma, Roll, Servbot, “Bone” Wolverine (aka Bonerine)

  • Rogue takes 46% damage upon receiving “Defense Up” from her Power Drain.

** Silver Samurai takes 117% damage if he uses his lightning power-up once or twice. Should he use his lightning power-up three times in a row, his stamina will return to 93%. Silver Samurai takes 46% damage if he uses his ice power-up once, twice, or three times in a row.Silver Samurai takes 140%! upon using his fire power-up once, 117% after using it twice in a row, and after using it three times in a row, his stamina returns to 93%.

dunno who originally wrote that but i found it lying on my pc, i think from some site…


and here is Joo’s Mvc2 Frame Data

http://www.video-opera.com/features/mvc2/mvc2-joo.php

yes i know it’s stickied.
.


The Low Tier Rankings List (this is just personal opinion if you feel you want to correct me go ahead)

**Tier 1 **

–Top–
Omega Red
Rogue
Dhalsim
Juggernaut (with glitch)
War Machine

–Middle–
Anakaris (ranking may differ on the whole arcade 300% combo thing)
Megaman
Morrigan
Venom
Strider (NO DOOM!)
Silver Samurai
Son Son

–Low–
Colossus
Hulk
Ice Man
Ruby Heart
Cammy

Tier 2

–Top–
Marrow
BB Hood
Bison

–Middle–
Charlie
Wolverines
Spiderman
Jill
Hayato
Chun Li
Shuma
Amingo
Sabretooth
Gambit

–Low–
Captain America
Sakura
Guile (he could be bumped to middle even just for his good match against sentinel)
Akuma
Ken
Ryu
Thanos

Tier 3

–Top–
Zangief
Servbot
Jin

–Low–
Dan
Roll

(A space indicates i think that a character is better than another even though they are in the same category)


Avoiding the Unblockable

Here is a quick list of low tier moves that can attempt to avoid the unblockable (this is for super jump mode)

Felicia: Wall Cling , Dp + K in the air

Mega Man: Wall Jump, Dp + Lp right before he lands on the laser, he’s too short to be hit by the rocket punch on recovery.

Shuma Gorath: Mystic Smash

Wolverines: Dive Kick so they wont’ know when you’ll do a real super jump and it alters your decension, Drill Claw, Wall Jump

Thanos: Knee Dive , Do Air Tackle before the normal jump screen you can block afterwards

Dan: Do light kick kyaku to delay the landing, block afterwards

Guile: Flash Kick

Amingo: Onion Dash might work i’d do it before i get to the normal jump screen.

Ken: Don’t think he has one, Upper cut might work right before the laser I’d suggest Hurricane Kick Over to him before then so he can’t set it up.

Ryu: Hadouken to slow decent if he tries to rocket punch xxx shinkuu

War Machine: Air Dash/Smart Bomb/Fly xxx Unfly

BB Hood: Double Jump, Cock Tail before Laser does too

Son Son: Air Dash, Fierce DP into Stick Super, Air Monkey Projectile

Marrow: Missle Super Stops it Cold, Bone Rang, Double Jump

Silver Samurai: Air Projectile

Ruby Heart: Ball Special, Ball Super.

Sabretooth: Wall Jump

Charlie: Razor Kick before lazer

Akuma: Air Fire Ball, Dive Kick

Zangief: SPD in the air to mess up timing, Lariat before rocket punch might work.

Ice Man: Artic Attack, Ice Beam in the air to mess up timing, Ice Ball

Gambit: Air Kinetic Card to mess up timing

Anakaris: Air Curse to mess up timing , Coffins, Air Dash to mess up timing

Hayato: Diving Sword right before lazer should work, diving sword just to mix up timing

Jin: Dive Kick MIGHT work doubtful

Captain America: Shield Slash to mess up timing, Double Jump

Spider Man: Max Spider, Web Dash, Air FB to mess up timing, Wall Jump

Juggernaut: Splash might work

Bison HP Teleport should work, Scissor Kick, Flight mode/Fly xx Unfly

Morrigan: Upward Air Dash, Air FB to mess up timing, Dive

Sakura: Air Fire Ball To mess up timing, desperation Dashing Uppercut before laser

Venom: Hp venom Fang, Web Swing

Jill: Tackle before normal jump screen (she takes a while to recover but she does eventually)

Hulk: Air HP to mess up timing

Cammy: Double jump, Desperation HK cannon drill before lazer

Strider: Air Dp+ Punch move, Horizontal qcf+ attack move, double jump, wall jump

Rogue: Air Dash, maybe dive kick

Servbot/Roll: air fireball to delay

Chun: Lighning kicks to delay, triple jump, wall jump, air dash

Omega: qcf+ attack move, air dash foward before lazer press back before he cancels into rocket punch.


UPDATE:

Throw Mashing: This is what Zaza told me in his wolverine thread


UPDATE!
**
Strategy for certain fireball characters and their assists**

Viscant talked about this a long while ago so I should talk about this with you guys. He used the examples of bison and marrow. He talked about for example how bison would do his hcb+hp fireball and if they attacked him he could pushblock them into the exploding ball. He also recently said that he would use marrow’s bonerang assist with sent and push block jump-in/square jumps/air attacks into it and get a free combo off of it.

Obviously this can be applied to more than just marrow and bison. He also mentioned charlie does something similar with his sonic boom but it applies to most characters with a slow fireball and it might be possible to be able to combo something off of it when combined with a assist. Basically this strategy should be experimented with if you are playing a character that has a fast recovering fireball or one that stays on the screen after he recovers. It’s probably not even limited to that and it can be probably applied in other ways aswell.

Other great ways to use it probably involve stuff like amingo’s projectiles that are unblockable. With Jill you can probably call a LK zombie and pushblock into it thus giving you a free combo. Also another thing that comes to mind is perhaps pushblocking into Ruby Heart’s sublimination since she recovers well and possibly her ghost if they avoid it. There are alot of possibilities with this strategy which I haven’t really seen documented. I just wanted to let you guys know.

That about does it.

Post up about specific character and i’ll prolly share any info i know and hopefully some people who play those characters will come in and post some strats aswell.

I might do character specific strats myself.

thanks for reading hope some peeps post up


#2

Thanks to this thread, I’m bring back team scrubocrusho - Guile, IronMan, Spidey.

But some of that was hard to read, and I didn’t agree with the tier listing, but eh, thats why it’s called an opinion.

I commend you for trying to bring a low tier thread to this place, using low tiers in casuals even if the other person picks the high tiers, is still hell fun.


#3

no problem

well if you disagree with my tier listing i’d be more than happy to hear your reasoning

maybe there is some aspects to a character i didn’t take into account ect. or maybe some of the options you aren’t aware of about the other characters above those characters

either way we can learn from discussing it and if anyone wants to ask questions about a character i say feel free to ask i’ll write what i know, although I may not know as much as some of the other experts about a particular character perhaps.

I’ll also change my list if you provide some good reasons if that means anything =)

Tell me what was hard to read and i’ll try to clarify


#4

I really enjoyed you post and I like that some like you took the time to make it. I also didnt agree with the Low-Tier listing. The list was kinda confusing at first. Instead of putting “Top”,“Middle”, and “Low” under Top,Middle, Low why not just # them for each section. I know BB Hood should be higher on the Low-Tier listing because I use her and she is really good. Even against some of the gods besides Storm and Cable(at times). She might not have much reach but she can really punish. I know that aint that good of reasons cause you haven’t seen video but yea its my opinion


#5

I don’t know if she can be put up higher than that.

She has good zoning (Throwing missles at different angles) and decent sonic boom like rush down and her BNB’s are really damaging (lk, mk xxx CH or lk, mk, foward + HP xxx CH)

She might be able to put up in Low Tier 1 but i haven’t really seen her in action, i know zaza is supposed to have a good bb hood and i’ve heard alot of stuff surrounding how annoying she is with her varying missle’s and how mines stop rushdown.

I suppose she can be put up in the next tier but she is definantly not any higher than low tier 1, anakaris and war machine each have really abuseable shit and OR is solid as is Dhalsim.

and maybe i’m putting wolvies a tad too high but i’ve seen them lock down rather good and they also have their neat tricks such as punishing assists with a drill claw … it’s fast good priority and people forget that since you hit the assist you can block afterwards… they do take too much damage however.

Well i might aswell write this down for those interested:

Quick BB Hood notes:

  • Land mines (RH and Df+ RH) help against rush down, land mines xxx missles isn’t bad at all

  • Vary the angles of your missles

  • Use her simple bnbs into cruel hunting

  • Set up ticks into her super grab for those not experienced in fighting bb hoods it can catch them by suprise. Her super grab by the way is Hyper apple for you i believe it HCB+ KK. It also catches other people by suprise and it covers itself decently with the bombs she throws afterwards if she fails… pretty much that + a assist like sent G might cover you (test it yourself though)

Wolverine Tips:

  • Read Joe Zaza’s thread in the character specific forums

  • Drill claw can punish assists for free

  • Optimal combo: C. lp, c. lk, c. mp (see if it hits)

Hit: standing RH (launch) j. lk, j. mp, j. mk Drill Claw (you want to not put too many hits before the drill claw to prevent damage scaling)

Block: Crouching RH + Sent G or other assist like Gambit A xxx Lp Berserker Claw

  • Bonerine G assist hits low

Learn how to mash his throws it’s useful for all low tiers:

I gtg i’ll talk later


#6

First Character Specific

Gambit

Comboability: Gambit doesn’t have alot of comboes that involve supers without assists, he has a basic air combo and he has good throws one can be mashed and the other can produce a air combo in the corner. However he cannot combo into his projectile and he cannot combo into either of his supers for full damage from a short.

Rating: Average (4 out of 10)

Mobility: He has no air dashes to speak of, he has no high-low game , no additional jumps of any kind and his dash appears to be average. He can however slow his decent with air kinetic cards and he does have other means of getting around (cajun strike P and K versions)

Rating: Average (4 of 10)

Versatility: He has one of the best special move sets in the entire game IMO it’s one of his biggest strenghts.

Kinetic Card: LP version is un-ahvbable iirc. HP does more stun and both can be used as a typhoon xxx hail type thing. LP card xxx explosion is best suited for assist punishing and chipping although HP card is much better IF you can get it out that is (it is much slower on start up but has much more stun that ensures that a assist gets hit by the full blast). HP card xxx cajun explosion is preferable if you want it to be unrollable on hit (which lp version can’t always guarentee). It’s a good projectile and it causes dead weight… opens up combo oppurtunies up close (rare) but it’s a great assist.

Trick Card: Best used to hit where yout hink the opponent will be… also if you think they will try to jump you can try trick card xxxx cajun explosion although it isn’t really neccesary. It’s a good move, you can almost always combo off of it if you hit the opponent high enough in the air.

Cajun Slash: LP version has very high priority and insane range… as a bonus it’s relatively safe, very good to cover a assist from storm or magneto close up. MP version (dp lk + HP)
also has uses in comboes since it can combo off middle attacks where as HP version cannot. A assist combo that’s decent is:

Call sent G, c. lk, c. mp, c.mk, mp cajun slash (2 hits)xxxx Royal Flush

I don’t really have a use for HP version all of them are pretty safe though.

Air Kinetic Card: Pretty useful IMO, Super jump and do the card as fast as possible (not tiger kneed) and it’s pretty safe unless they do a psychic counter of some kind… it’s pretty useful at full screen if you can get it around just above or around the top of the normal jump screen.

Cajun Strike K: I find this pretty useful and fun to use. If you don’t use it alot you can catch someone by suprise with something like c. light, c. medium + sent g xxx cajun strike and there are other variations of it aswell. Pressing lk or hk greatly varies the kick:

If you use lk version + sent g the kick will most likely miss (it is more shallow) but you will land immediately allowing you to combo off the drones.

Hk version + sent will most likely hit the opponent and push them into sents drones allowing you to tick throw or just do a little block string for meter or chip.

Cajun Strike P: Pretty good, it can cross up on it’s own since it allows you freedom to move like vega’s wall jump, it’s also kind of better for the double wall jump cross up (Do UF when you hit the wall so he goes on the other side again)

Royal Flush: Does alot of damage when dhced into and the opponent is standing. 37 hits, even with max damage scaling that’s nearly 40 damage no matter what which is more than even a hail storm offers (although not as versatile). Does good damage but can’t be comboed into for full damage but is also good to dhc out of however outside of team situations it is the inferior super.

Cajun Explosion: Great Super… it can be comboed into sort of by using a card and cancelling into this and also a important thing to note is that as soon as the super flash is done you know that there’s a 99% chance that nothing will touch you and if they try to you will end up trading in your favor. Once the super flash happens he pretty much immediately throws a irreversable explosion and if cable tried to ahvbed you he gets hit for full damage and put in flying screen giving you the intiative… even if you get hit the super will keep going. Also does good damage when dhced into and will stay in the first screen (like magneto’s shockwave) if dhced out of, providing extra chip and cover unlike hail storm.

Rating: Very Good 7 of 10

Overall: I know you may think he sucks with 2 average ratings and one good rating but he’s actually a pretty good all around character like cyclops… great assist, great moves… if he could only do big damage by himself (combo into one of his supers for good damage) he’d prolly be in the second tier or right below it.

Also keep in mind he’s a mainly a keep away player but does have some good rush down tools (lp cajun slash is near dp calibur… better cuz it leaves you safe and comes out fast with HUGE range (no invincibility though) and his cajun strikes actually give him some mix up and the ability to get in fast (if you score a knock down or it’s blocked you’ll be right on top of them with the intiative and odds are low they’ll roll out)

Overall Rating: 7

Strategy:

Kind of hard to say, gambit is usually not used by most as a point man but he can be used effectively on point (although his a and b assist are really good) Use cajun slash to cover your assists in close range, it goes like half screen distance and really is high priority… use cards to chip at your opponent and when you feel lucky maybe a card xxx explosion. Don’t be afraid to mix it up with a random cajun strike and if you get the initative andthey pushblock just end your string in a kinetic card. For full screen games super jump kinetic card is at least safe on the first card, if they call their assist incorrectly depending on what assist and the point are either cajun explosion or card xxx explosion.

As always bait out assists aswell.

Other Important Notes:

Know when to use the appropiate normals.

C.lp is 2 frames while his c. lk is 5 frames… depending on what you want to do pick the right one or just go with the one that best suits your play style.

His c. mk is very far reaching and he has a good launcher.

Keep in mind you can do light , medium, launcher with gambit and that he can use all 6 of his normals in a chain in the ground and the air. He has the pixie chain system.

this seemed like a good gambit thread too:

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29039

That’s all I got for now i’ll try to add more strats and such later.


#7

nice job jin i glad i told you to make this thread.


#8

Those tiers are way off. Strider and Cammy are at the top of the low-tier.


#9

I Think he said Strider is low-tier WITHOUT Doom, wich i agree.

Can you please put LOTS of info and tips for shuma? I would like it


#10

WITH Doom, Strider is the 5th best character in the game. In other words, he’s the top of the top-tier characters. The general rule of thumb is that without Doom he drops one tier putting him at the top of the second tier. He still has teleport, more priority than Magz and orbs allow for safe tag-outs to other characters. Just keep in mind that he’ll almost definitely need an assist to do any considerable damage now that chip damage is out the window. I’ve had some ideas about Strider/Silver Samurai recently. I’ll see what I can find and get back to this thread.


#11

Okay. From what I’ve seen from a little experimenting, for Strider non-Doom teams Tronne and Thanos are some pretty decent partners.

If you ever watch some Clock vids you’ll prolly see a combo that goes orbs(mash rings until its over while calling drones) drones hit, dash forward, jab, strong, launch, air combo. Well, if you time it a little differently, you can hit Thanos’s bubble at the end. From here you can follow up with an air combo, or jump in with j. fierce, j. roundhouse, (land) cr.fierce air combo for a little extra damage. I’m not sure if that really matters though since the damage scaling has well since set in by now. After the bubble you could also jab, strong, launchxxteleport, airthrow. After the airthrow you could call an assist and cancel an animal into orbs while they’re getting up which will lead to more lockdown. You can also wavedash into the corner while they’re trapped to get a better positioning on them before following up. Granted, that will take some tight timing so do your homework.

The benefits of Tronne are obvious. Damage. Also, she comes out pretty fast so she can fill the gaps in Strider’s blocked strings. Not much to really explain here because it’s not like Tronne is an unpopular character.

I wouldn’t recommend using both these characters on the same team though. You need an AAA. On team Clockw0rk, Strider has assists that cover a lot more of the screen so the priority i his j. fierce can more than fill in the holes. This team is much more two dimensional. I’d recommend Cammy or Chun-Li.


#12

Forgot to put Blackheart in tier 1 top.


#13

Nice thread, very nice initial post.

The best way to work this is for people who have knowledge of a given character to offer advice & strats. For example, I know Hulk pretty good, so I can field those questions (others could too, but none that I know of post anymore unless you count Renegade, who is more of a Colossus player).

So if you know a lil’ somethin’ about Character X, let it be known that you might have an answer or two. Thanks.


#14

That’s a good idea. For the few of you who care about Strider, I’m willing to help you out. Also, I used to be pretty beastly w/ Sakura. This thread is a good idea; don’t let it be ignored.


#15

yeah its a good idea… I’ll post some stuff about Ruby Heart when i have time tomorrow. :tup:

EDIT: Why was this thread ignored for 3 months? :confused:


#16

I have a few random comments:

If done properly this can be a very good thread. Giving links to other characters specific threads is also a good idea.

I could be wrong, but i think the stamina tiers are a little off. I dont think colossos or bonerine belong in those slots. You may want to check on that. You also forget to mention stamina with amingos assist.

the tier list is a little off. Mine will probably also be off because I haven’t seen ALL of these characters played by top or very good players but I play at places like CTF so I think I will have a better tier list.

–Top–
Omega Red
Rogue (almost competitive top tier)
Dhalsim
Juggernaut
War Machine
Cammy
Guile
Charlie
Strider (NO DOOM!)
Jin
Ken
Megaman

–Middle–
Wolverines
Anakaris
Morrigan
Venom (alomost top)
Colossus
Hulk
Son Son
Silver Samurai
Ice Man (almost top)
Ruby Heart
Marrow
Gambit
BB Hood
Bison
Spiderman
Jill
Hayato
Chun Li
Shuma
Amingo
Captain America
Sakura
Akuma
Ryu
sabertooth

–Low–
Zangief
Servbot
Dan
Roll

Its’s just IMO. I grouped a huge 2nd tier because none of them stand out to go low or top tier. The top tier is as large as it is because of those assists, not just there point game. I also feel characters like BH or Spiral are competitive low top tier.


#17

Venom in middle tier? Someone’s hating…


#18

Jin, ken , Charlie ahead of Ruby Heart, Venom, silver samurai ? :confused:


#19

Amingo, BB Hood, Sonson, Iceman, Silver Sam, Ruby Heart, Sakura, and Jill should moved to the top. Largely based on their point game not cause just becauser of their assists.


#20

Maybe he lists them higher for their assists? Well… maybe not Charlie-- his assists suck.