rolls are an option which sf4 lacks. Options are huge in this game. When you roll you do it to get out of pressure but what if you roll and you’re not in the life lead. You put yourself out of range to make something happen and thus your opponent now knows two things. You’re gonna have to go in or you’re going to tag out. If you roll away and you have the life lead it’s a smart move because you’re doing the right thing and not risking eating a 50/50 mix up. Xtekken cross ups are MORE ambiguous than in sf4 because some normals can cross up if you super jump and most opponents don’t know this. With my character lili if you don’t roll you commit to a 50/50 dive kick which will usually lead to your death; why eat that? But if you roll away nothing happens to me. I either os into divine step or dive kick build meter and do not risk anything; i’m safe. The situation is reset and sometimes its in my favor if i have the life lead. Look at how much transpired in that one roll and the outcomes that followed.That’s why i enjoy this game because each choice you make and each option you utilizes results into something. I think most players are still trying to grasps the options in front of them and why they benefit them in certain situations and why sometimes they don’t.
Yes and no because the rolls move you forward most of the time you’re actually going to be put in a more advantageous position when rolling then if you stood straight up, even if solely because you can get out of the corner with it.
I would prefer the rolls have some manner risk associated with them. That way the defender is the one taking the risk by trying to roll out, rather than the attacker taking a chance by trying to bait the roll. Look at your example with the dive kick. Yes that is reasonably risk-free if you assume your opponents only options are rolling, but in this game your opponent has a plethora of options. In addition to the role they’ve access to invulnerable back dash, several reversal moves many of which might even be safe if tag canceled and auto correct themselves. Even otherwise neat technology like the super jump option select has the downside of ruining your chances at a safe jump leaving you vulnerable to Dragon punches, which in this game, means huge damage.
In the end, it boils down to:
knockdowns = good if you have the life lead / not so good if your opponent has the life lead
resets = good if you want to come back / not so good if your opponent needs to comeback or if a normal combo would kill.
In this game, you are almost rewarded for being knocked down (since you often have more chances to get out safely than to get hit by something). That’s why resets are good: they deny wake up options and make it harder for the opponent to escape your pressure.
Health management is also huge because it basically decides where the pressure is and who is actually taking a bigger risk on knockdown situations.
For example: say I land a combo on you and knock you down. I throw a meaty projectile in case you quickstand, but you don’t quickstand. So then I stay at max roll distance expecting you to roll but you don’t roll. The situation is now reset: we’re both at neutral again.
If I have the life lead, I took zero risk and the pressure is on you because you need to tag somehow and comeback from behind. You need to take risks. I won.
If you have the life lead, I lost my momentum and you got out of my mixup safely. You won.
So how does one go about finding resets? Id like to think we haven’t found all of them yet. the ones in which a character can combo into a mixup, like King’s elbow smash, are easy to look for in the lab but aren’t there other kinds as well, like the ones ultradavid tried to collect?
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Poison does not understand the concept of a reset…but im trying to work something out in that regard.
rofl, I didn’t know that every character has a superjump xD
Honestly I actually didn’t believe in this silly oki poki stuff. So I added vulcan on xbox and played a lot of matches with him. I rolled on purpose to try to expose his “art” then when I rolled he did really mean things to me :(. To the point I couldn’t roll anymore because my sodium levels were so high I had to take my hands off the controller and meditate and I’d stand up in neutral. Fun games vulcan I like how you play! You could of timeout me when you had the life lead but your the type of player that thinks “It’s not a win till someones laying on the floor KO’d, “whats a timeout, eh I dunno?” ATTACK!”. Players like you make this game enjoyable, thanks for the fun ^.^!
lol yeah I got really mean and dirty setups vs every type of knockdown. It surprises people everytime.
GGs (do we even have a GGs thread?)
btw I do play really lame sometimes. Depends on the matchup I think and who I’m playing.
Actually we could probably use one around here.
Well, this stuff isn’t exactly “Oki” per se, but these are ways that you can mess with the opponent’s wake-up so that you will be in range to continue some kind of pressure no matter how the opponent gets up from a knockdown.
With Ken, if you do his forward throw, then immediately forward jump, if your opponent rolls they’ll be rolling in the same direction that you jumped. And if you do a delayed air tatsu, you’ll end up in cr.mk range whether the opponent simply stood up or rolled, which you can then proceed to CADC to get back in the opponent’s face. I believe the same principle applies to Ryu, as his forward throw is the same as Ken’s.
With Heihachi, if you do his forward throw, immediately dash twice, and then neutral jump HK, if the opponent rolls the opponent will end up behind you and the jumping HK will hit them, and you can then proceed to combo them (and if they manage to block it you can maintain pressure and continue with his devastating mix-up game). If the opponent doesn’t roll, the jumping HK won’t hit but you’ll still be in range to do either + :lp: (his overhead), :f: + :mp: (his low), or :f: + :lk: (frame trap), all of which can lead into full combos on hit.
With Abel, if you connect with any version of Tornado Throw or the Change of Direction combo (ending with the overhead grab not the low), if you do LK roll as soon as possible, whether or not the opponent rolls you’ll still be in step kick range.
Around 1:28 in this vid is a reset. You’ll see how effective it is in terms of resetting scaling and also optimizing damage. it’s nothing huge but i feel it fits here the best.
Really really late to this thread, I feel like I understand this gaME NOW!!! tHANKS SOO MUCH
Vulcan for president. I’ve been looking for soft knockdown spots over the last few days, but I really should be looking for resets if I really want to get anywhere.
EDIT: And I thought I should say this. For whatever reason, the second hit of EX Hakkesho will whiff on a juggled opponent. Hopefully, that’ll be fixed.
I’ve been trying really hard but i cant seem to get Poison to do a standing reset…
Vert told me to get Tapatalk 2
Unfortunately, not all characters have the ability to crumple or reset a bounce.
But all characters have the ability to CADC out of a link and EX CADC out of a chain. So that’s kind of a universal reset but not so good if you don’t have a comboable overhead and a fast enough dash. Without a good overhead, your only CADC mixup is to go low, bait or tick throw. But that can still be good at the end of a long scaled combo to get a surprise throw/frame trap. For example: 1 bar 400 scaled damage ending with (EX) CADC throw/frame trap. Then you can get 130/150 from a throw or 300/400+ from a reversal bait or frame trap/throw bait.
Sorry btw, I haven’t updated first post in a while. I’m too busy trying out the new characters hah. Will eventually get back to this with more vids and tech.
What is the best way to go around finding a character’s oki? Right now with Bryan I am seeing what his best moves are from each of his hard knockdowns (so many) that deal with each thing the opponent can do on wakeup. And what exactly are safe jumps and how to find them? Just jump attacks you can do that an opponent cannot aa due to how long it takes them to get up?
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Here is my first video for my Guy/Lili Resets/Vortexs I still have alot more to show I hope this will help any Guy and Lili players and I left out some parts by accident I will make sure to include it in the next video. This is great tech for your Oki and Shout outs to FlyingVe for discovering the Dive Kick tech. Next up will be auto correct and roll so I still have plently more to show too bad it takes 2 meters to do this because of Guy.
What’s the most damage Guy can get from that ground bounce solo? And can he combo into ground bounce?
Using 2 meters for a reset isn’t bad per say, the real problem here is that you barely do 150 damage for 2 bars then go into a reset. That’s sacrificing a lot of meter and guaranteed damage for a mixup that might not even land. Ideally, you want to deal a maximum of damage right before you go into the reset. If you could find a way to do like 330 or 400 damage right before the ground bounce, then your reset would be a lot better. That’s what makes Flying Ve’s reset good: Hwoarang can get a free ground bounce off a launcher or BnB and you just need 1 bar to tag Lili in.
That’s the bad thing about it Guy can’t combo with his ground bounce and that’s the only one he has. Ex run is only a mix up/ reset tool itself I will keep trying and find some other way. But that’s all Guy has sadly but I will keep trying and thanks for the advice
Your focus imo should be on finding really ambiguous cross-ups/cross-rolls and roll resets. Safe jumps OS and vortexes are not so reliable in this game. Safe jumps are meaty jump attacks that hit on the last active frames and allow you to block 4+ frame reversals in time. You cannot jump out vs a safe jump. In AE the only way to escape a safe jump is to either backdash, use an invincible escape reversal (like teleports) or a 3f or less reversal. In this game, people can roll and use alpha counters which makes safe jumps kinda weak compared to SF4. So like I said you gameplan should not be based on safe jumping, option-selects and vortexes. Meaty jump ins can always come in handy though. Check vesper arcade and option-select vids for more info about safe jumps and OS.
About your other questions:
-If Bryan has good properties on counter hit, find his longest knockdowns and see if you have enough time to safely store a counter hit for free. (ground/wall bounces are good for this. If you have enough time to store a CH then you likely also have enough time to safely raw tag btw)
-See if you can hop over a downed opponent quickly enough to reset the roll.
-Find your 2-3 main combo enders that you will almost always use. At least one of them should encourage quickstand (send opponent high in the air), and one should encourage roll (send opponent far away). And design a few anti-quickstand and anti-roll setups for them.
-Also look for a move he has that can catch most backdashes (and is ideally safe on block).
I think those are the most important things to look for regarding oki in SFxT.
EDIT: Yeah so basically, you don’t need a million setups for every single knockdown. Just the knockdowns that matter and are recurrent enough. I personally focus on BnB, post-launch, AA and a few others. Keep it simple. Less is more because you need repetition to condition the opponent to fall for your mixups.