The Realistic Cammy Wish list

cammy

#1

This thread is a last ditch attempt to get Capcom to notice what us Cammy players truely want/need.

Lets face cold hard facts. She isnt good she has gaping holes in her game lets try to plug some of these holes before 2012 goes live. This is not a whining thread. Serious input we got our spiral arrow back and a stupid change to spin knuckle.

What do we want? and when do we want it? 2012!

Changes & Reasoning

Improved neutral jump attacks: Cammy currently can’t even hit crouchers with her neutral jump normals, unless they’re directly next to her (which they won’t be, if Cammy is neutral jumping). She needs something to help here, neutral jump dive normal Cannon Strike would be a simple solution. Every other dive kick character can do dive kick from neutral jump, so with the AE height restriction there’s no reason for Cammy not to have this as well.

Higher damage overall: Cammy is an in close character. She is nearly useless from mid range, all of her offense comes from combo into Spiral Arrow into mixup, which only works at very close range where you can hitconfirm from two or more normals. Cammy has to take damage to get in, so it only makes sense she should deal damage when she gets in.

  • Close HP: Cammy’s punish damage is only 205 (fierce xx arrow) which is very poor and beaten by every other in close character and most zoners as well. Her normal move AA is close fierce, which does a terrible 65 damage which is a huge risk for a risky, non invincible anti air.

  • Far HP: Far HP was reduced from 120 damage to 80/100. With 2-hit HK Spiral Arrow returning in AE 2012, there will be almost no incentive to use far HP combos, when an easier link to cr.mk will also combo to 2-hit HK Spiral Arrow at more ranges. The extra 9 to 12 damage will not be enough to make it worth using. For a tough 1F link to far hp, 80 damage is simply too low. Other characters can combo to 100 damage fierces, so Cammy should be able to do the same. Damage should be returned to SSF4 values: 100 at comboable range, 120 at far range.

  • Cannon Spike: If somebody jumps at Cammy 100 damage is the biggest punishment she can deal out without using 50% super meter. If she is hit by a jump in, she takes roughly 300-350 damage from a full jump in combo. Cannon Spike is the lowest damage DP in the game (the 160 dmg air to air DP mainly hits as offense to hit cornered opponents, not as a defensive AA). A buff to 120 damage while grounded would be fair.

  • Spiral Arrow: The damage should be returned to SSF4 levels. The move is still just as unsafe as ever, still susceptible to focus. It is only useful in combos or OS, which Cammy has to take risks to get close enough to land.

  • Cannon Strike: For a heavy class attack with a high minimum height and susceptibility to focus, 60 damage is too low. It is marginally faster than a jump in, but hits like a light medium attack in terms of damage. Damage should be buffed to 70 to make it in line with other mediums, at the very least.

Improved poking normals: Cammy does not any normals that are reliable enough to poke with against most characters, outside of far HK and crouch MP/MK. The problem with these is that far HK is basically a fireball in that if it gets jumped, it’s a free jump in punish for the enemy. The crouching pokes require close range to use, which is not where Cammy needs help (or needs to be poking, generally). Improving either far MK or far HK by reducing recovery would close up Cammy’s biggest hole in the midrange poking/zoning game. Also, reducing recovery on far MP would give her a new poke (or really just return her old far MP poke from SF Alpha 3) that would let her cover more of the midrange. She would still be weak at this range though, because of low reward for landing pokes, but buffs to these moves would help greatly.

Better throw range or walk speed: Cammy has no effective options outside of close range, so her close range game needs to be strong. Her throw range should be above average - instead she has the worst throw range in the game for no apparent reason. This needs to be fixed to a Ryu-range throw at the very least. A walk speed buff would achieve the same effect while improving her ability to get in.

Reworked Spin Knuckle: Due to its incredibly slow startup, this move is nearly useless at neutral. During startup, there is more than enough time for the enemy to walk up to you and hit you, or even do a raw ultra, before the Spin Knuckle goes active. Improving the properties on hit or block won’t help, since this move should not even be reaching that stage if the other player is competent. Spin Knuckle needs to be faster, there is simply no other realistic way to make this move worth using.
even be reaching that stage if the other player is competent.

Cannon Strike improvements: Cammy’s dive kick has the highest height restriction of any dive kick in the game (Yun, Yang, Rufus), excluding apex-only type divekicks (Akuma, Evil Ryu). It is also overly susceptible to focus, cannot be done from a neutral jump, and also travels slower than every other dive kick in the game. It needs to be improved by lowering the height restriction, making it usable from neutral jump, or reducing recovery so that it is not punishable by focus attack at almost every height.

Pushback on cr.mp: Cammy’s crouching mp has as much pushback as a heavy attack. This should be fixed to be the same push back as other medium attacks in the game, such as Ryu cr.mp.

Large number of useless moves: Ask any Cammy player and they will tell you of the large number of useless attacks in her moveset. Close MK seems to have no use at all, as it is crouchable, negative frames, and completely overshadowed by close MP. Close HK is unsafe on hit on the ground, and is not very useful for antiair purposes. Far MP is only useful in combos, as the recovery is simply too slow to allow it to be used safely as a poke (it is as slow as many heavy attacks on whiff) - this move used to be one of her best pokes in SF Alpha 3. Hooligan Combination cannot be used at all outside of knockdown or meaty setups because of its slow startup, and the followup Razor’s Edge Slicer doesn’t even armor break, making it one of or the single slowest non-armor breaking moves in the game. Spin Knuckle as mentioned before is not useful at neutral at all due to incredibly slow startup.

Neutral jump attacks in general all hit diagonally up-forwards, and none hit down-forwards.

Fixing Cammy’s bugged Chain Cancels: Cammy’s new cr.lp, st.lp, and close st.lp behave like her old SSF4 versions when chained into other normals. This means she can’t combo to special even when linking her normals properly. This absolutely needs fixing as it is a legit bug and does not follow the rules of linked attacks.

See this video for more details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8fhpT1UFv4

Overall, Cammy players are not satisfied and would like to see at least some of these areas addressed in the upcoming AE 2012.

Special thanks to Sycho for adding alot to this thread


#2

Listed below are what I believe to be Cammy’s biggest fundamental weaknesses. She is a character that excels at one thing: in close pressure and mixup, and lacks in every other area. These suggestions are made to address these lacking areas.

Changes & Reasoning

Improved neutral jump attacks: Cammy currently can’t even hit crouchers with her neutral jump normals, unless they’re directly next to her (which they won’t be, if Cammy is neutral jumping). She needs something to help here, neutral jump dive normal Cannon Strike would be a simple solution. Every other dive kick character can do dive kick from neutral jump, so with the AE height restriction there’s no reason for Cammy not to have this as well.

Higher damage overall: Cammy is an in close character. She is nearly useless from mid range, all of her offense comes from combo into Spiral Arrow into mixup, which only works at very close range where you can hitconfirm from two or more normals. Cammy has to take damage to get in, so it only makes sense she should deal damage when she gets in.

  • Close HP: Cammy’s punish damage is only 205 (fierce xx arrow) which is very poor and beaten by every other in close character and most zoners as well. Her normal move AA is close fierce, which does a terrible 65 damage which is a huge risk for a risky, non invincible anti air.

  • Far HP: Far HP was reduced from 120 damage to 80/100. With 2-hit HK Spiral Arrow returning in AE 2012, there will be almost no incentive to use far HP combos, when an easier link to cr.mk will also combo to 2-hit HK Spiral Arrow at more ranges. The extra 9 to 12 damage will not be enough to make it worth using. For a tough 1F link to far hp, 80 damage is simply too low. Other characters can combo to 100 damage fierces, so Cammy should be able to do the same. Damage should be returned to SSF4 values: 100 at comboable range, 120 at far range.

  • Cannon Spike: If somebody jumps at Cammy 100 damage is the biggest punishment she can deal out without using 50% super meter. If she is hit by a jump in, she takes roughly 300-350 damage from a full jump in combo. Cannon Spike is the lowest damage DP in the game (the 160 dmg air to air DP mainly hits as offense to hit cornered opponents, not as a defensive AA). A buff to 120 damage while grounded would be fair.

  • Spiral Arrow: The damage should be returned to SSF4 levels. The move is still just as unsafe as ever, still susceptible to focus. It is only useful in combos or OS, which Cammy has to take risks to get close enough to land.

  • Cannon Strike: For a heavy class attack with a high minimum height and susceptibility to focus, 60 damage is too low. It is marginally faster than a jump in, but hits like a light medium attack in terms of damage. Damage should be buffed to 70 to make it in line with other mediums, at the very least.

Improved poking normals: Cammy does not any normals that are reliable enough to poke with against most characters, outside of far HK and crouch MP/MK. The problem with these is that far HK is basically a fireball in that if it gets jumped, it’s a free jump in punish for the enemy. The crouching pokes require close range to use, which is not where Cammy needs help (or needs to be poking, generally). Improving either far MK or far HK by reducing recovery would close up Cammy’s biggest hole in the midrange poking/zoning game. Also, reducing recovery on far MP would give her a new poke (or really just return her old far MP poke from SF Alpha 3) that would let her cover more of the midrange. She would still be weak at this range though, because of low reward for landing pokes, but buffs to these moves would help greatly.

Better throw range or walk speed: Cammy has no effective options outside of close range, so her close range game needs to be strong. Her throw range should be above average - instead she has the worst throw range in the game for no apparent reason. This needs to be fixed to a Ryu-range throw at the very least. A walk speed buff would achieve the same effect while improving her ability to get in.

Reworked Spin Knuckle: Due to its incredibly slow startup, this move is nearly useless at neutral. During startup, there is more than enough time for the enemy to walk up to you and hit you, or even do a raw ultra, before the Spin Knuckle goes active. Improving the properties on hit or block won’t help, since this move should not even be reaching that stage if the other player is competent. Spin Knuckle needs to be faster, there is simply no other realistic way to make this move worth using.

Cannon Strike improvements: Cammy’s dive kick has the highest height restriction of any dive kick in the game (Yun, Yang, Rufus), excluding apex-only type divekicks (Akuma, Evil Ryu). It is also overly susceptible to focus, cannot be done from a neutral jump, and also travels slower than every other dive kick in the game. It needs to be improved by lowering the height restriction, making it usable from neutral jump, or reducing recovery so that it is not punishable by focus attack at almost every height.

Pushback on cr.mp: Cammy’s crouching mp has as much pushback as a heavy attack. This should be fixed to be the same push back as other medium attacks in the game, such as Ryu cr.mp.

Large number of useless moves: Ask any Cammy player and they will tell you of the large number of useless attacks in her moveset. Close MK seems to have no use at all, as it is crouchable, negative frames, and completely overshadowed by close MP. Close HK is unsafe on hit on the ground, and is not very useful for antiair purposes. Far MP is only useful in combos, as the recovery is simply too slow to allow it to be used safely as a poke (it is as slow as many heavy attacks on whiff) - this move used to be one of her best pokes in SF Alpha 3. Hooligan Combination cannot be used at all outside of knockdown or meaty setups because of its slow startup, and the followup Razor’s Edge Slicer doesn’t even armor break, making it one of or the single slowest non-armor breaking moves in the game. Spin Knuckle as mentioned before is not useful at neutral at all due to incredibly slow startup. Neutral jump attacks in general all hit diagonally up-forwards, and none hit down-forwards.

Fixing Cammy’s bugged Chain Cancels: Cammy’s new cr.lp, st.lp, and close st.lp behave like her old SSF4 versions when chained into other normals. This means she can’t combo to special even when linking her normals properly. This absolutely needs fixing as it is a legit bug and does not follow the rules of linked attacks. See this video for more details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8fhpT1UFv4

Overall, Cammy players are not satisfied and would like to see at least some of these areas addressed in the upcoming AE 2012.


#3

This is a step in the right direction of getting what we want. :slight_smile:


#4

Nerf her harder so you stop beating me with her! j/k
Her crouching punches bug should really be publicly fixed.


#5

Very good write-up, I agree with pretty much everything, but her cl. MK is special cancellable. It is still largely useless (other than a very situational anti-air uses), but it is not as bad as cl. HK.

One thing that always bugged me was her Razor’s Edge Slicer. It is one of those completely useless moves because of how slow it is. But, unlike Spin Knuckle it would still be bad even with a speed buff. For a move that is even slower than Spin Knuckle it doesn’t even do much on hit. Pathertic 100 damage and launch for a partial Ultra Juggle? It doesn’t even have frame advantage on block. What also sucks is that the move itself has a 10 frame startup in addition to the full Hooligan animation.


#6

Lol, if only. Ah what the hell, I’ll take having FADCable SA to make random cr. mk buffered SA pokes slightly less stupid again. That’s enough for me to play her again. Maybe. Seriously though. Having any kind of useful neutral jump move would be fucking fantastic. Personally I’ve always wanted her ST j. mp back, but I’m just always pissed that dick Fei has such a fucking godlike one, along with all his other stupidly good air (and non air) normals.


#7

ive tweeted this page to capcom devs in hopes some one bothers to look at it


#8

AE HK spiral arrow.

but seriously, all I ever wanted from the beginning is a better throw and faster spin knuckle.


#9

Cammy is an up-close and in your face fighter primarily, yet is lacking in a couple of aspects that should be her strength.

One is her terrible throw range that hinders her ability to apply pressure because opponents know they can simply hold block. Two is her pushback on cr MP. Once Cammy gets within her ideal range, she gets pushback further than other players for performing a similar move. Considering the nature of Cammy’s optimal range, this becomes much more of a detriment to her than it would be for much of the cast.

**Solution: **1. Change Cammy’s throw range to be on par with the rest of the cast (0.9) and 2. Change Cammy’s cr MP pushback to that of Ryu’s cr MP.

ETA: These aren’t necessary the changes I’d want to see the most, but the ones I think we’d be most likely to get w/ cr MP pushback at the top of such request.


#10

Okay just going to delete my post incase someone believe it.

Personally what I want for cammy:

Faster Cr.Mk: I’d like it as a poke. Currently we have standing medium kick and far roundhouse. Far roundhouse is a risk if they jump, and stand medium kick is pretty average overall. I’d just like another option.

Bit more damage: I feel like overall she could use a bit more damage considering the amount of effort I have to put in, plus how easily I can get pushed out.

Lower dive kick restriction by one horizontal line in Training Mode: At the moment it is stupidly high, good players can react really easily to it. Additionally to this, it would be nice if you could input the dive kick earlier and it just activates on the earliest possible frame, instead of getting a random jump light kick or something stupid.

Slightly less push back on normals: Pretty simple, I’d like to be able to stay in. Currently after about 2 light attacks you are pushed out of throw range, everyone knows you can just hold down back at this point and Cammy can’t do anything.

Increase Throw Range: Just keeps her in your face, it is pretty horrible for a character that relies on mix ups to have an awful throw range.

Greedy Changes

These are changes that I would like to see, but I don’t realistically expect them.

Spin Knuckle to be Viable: Viable as in the light one holding you in place/comboable, or just a faster move overall. In it’s current state it is useless, and although we have already gotten used to ignoring it, it would be nice to have another option instead of needing ex meter to get under fireballs.

Dive Kick restriction to be greatly reduced: I’m not asking for instant again, I don’t mind having to use ex for that privilege, but I would like it to be really low again. Gives Cammy some way to actually put chip pressure on someone.

Neutral Jump Normals reworked to hit crouchers: Nothing too absurd, just Cammys neutral jump options currently suck, it would be nice to have something better than jumping medium kick.

Close Heavy Kick to be safe on hit and not horribly punishable on block: This is the move that when it comes out, you know 100% no one wanted it. It’s awful, it has no range, it gets horribly punished on hit or block and it’s a pretty lousy anti air.

Hooligan Combination improved: Any number of things could be changed for this. Make it overall faster, make it grab crouchers, make it dive kick cancelable. It’s okay used sparingly in its current place, but it is a pretty meh tool.


#11

I really hope Capcom will read and care about this!!! Good job guys!


#12

Another suggestion: If they keep her throw range, shorten the opponents techable window.


#13

Cammy is a perfectly balanced character as is and in 2012 she’ll be pretty damn good, any more buffs would be unnecessary.


#14

You can say that but the reality is people haven’t been playing her since AE dropped.She has to be one of the most underused characters.

Whether or not she’ll be better in 2012 is debatable. I actually think she’ll have a harder time with the changes to the meta game.


#15

Liking this post immensely and hopefully something will come out of it.


#16

Alright, I guess I’ll put in my thoughts.

Throw range: Her throw range should be like everyone else: .9
Optional Fix for throw range: Make far stand HP a kara cancellable move. I’d take a sick kara throw instead of a regular throw.

Move Changes:
Low forward: 1 frame faster. hitbox extended.
Close Stand RH: Causes Knockdown
LP Spin knuckle startup decreased by 15 frames, causes no knockdown and 50 + 50 damage. Stun 70 + 80. Pushback from hit is too far to combo after. As for invincibility/frame data: 1 frame strike invincible, 2-12 lowerbody/fireball invincible. Distance of LP spin knuckle range reduced. Leave HP and MP ~ same.

Hitbox changes:
Close Stand Jab hitbox lowered.
Close Stand Fierce hitbox extended to hit all crouching characters.
Crouch Fierce to hit all crouching characters
Change Cannon Strike to have a larger hitbox horizontally. - Slightly easier to crossup dive.

Damage Changes:
Close stand fierce to be 90/75
Cannon Spike (HK) to be 120, air to air remain the same.
EX Cannon Spike to be 160(160)

I think these changes keep Cammy’s current playstyle, but makes all her tools way better. LP knuckle still won’t be comboable, but 20 frame startup will make the move much more viable. I do not want want MP, HP, or EX to really change. Maybe make MP and EX a tad shorter, but I’m happy with HP knuckle.


#17

Those hitbox changes would be oh so sexy…


#18

I agree with the throw distance. The low throw distance made sense in SSF4 but without TKCS it needs a buff. Damage buffs to some normals is also a good idea.

I don’t think her neutral normals should be buffed. Her jump is fast, she has an air grab, she has a DP practically built for long range anti-air, and she can easily dash under someone. Finally, basic fact of the matter is that she is supposed to be high offense, not “ahahaha, I’ve got you in the corner, I win”. If you have them at the disadvantage then Cammy is supposed to stay on the offense, for better or for worse. She is not supposed to sit there and try to react to the guy. Buffing close heavy punch is acceptable, though.


#19

As much as the CLose damage buff sounds nice i think if they ever did follow up with that knowing capcom they will do a OTT Buff meaning Cammy will=Yun

But from what i play and oppentents im going against i think Cammy needs a better throw/Grab range and is a touch annoying as when i go to Hit Confrim. if there blocking by the time ive registerd this and done two hits im out of range meaning just a simple jump back to stay safe from and punishables from opponent!

Also To fix that Bugged Move! TBH that shouldnt even be in 2012 Patch that should be done now!


#20

I would love close.jab to have a better hit box id also love far jab to have the same plus frames as close.