The SFV footsies thread


#1

This is the thread where we talk about the good buttons/ticks all the characters have. All across the board.

This means vega’s c. lp xx roll, mikas s. mk, karins s. mk, cammys s. mk (noting a pattern?), Ryu’s s. mk (hey!) nash’s c. mk (changing it up!)

I’m inviting you to talk about other good buttons other characters have. Should be interesting.


#2

Gives me something to do.

Chun Li
c.MK: 6 frame start up, 0 on block (same start up as 3S, safer on block than 3S), hits low, cancellable. Can cancel into EX legs which is also safe on block so you can just throw it out there and pray for EX legs. No need to hit confirm it (which is nice because you can’t). Combos into itself on counter hit from decent range. c.MK, c.MK EX legs racks up the stun nice. Just have to be careful vs low crush moves. V Trigger makes it 2 hits and makes it hit confirmable into EX legs so gives you room to spend less meter fishing with it. Can also hit confirm into LK legs into super with Trigger.

b+HP: 6 frame start up, plus 2 on block, crush counter, deceptively good button. People just see that it doesn’t have as much range as her 3S version (which had OP range and hit box) and dismiss it. When you actually use it though, it becomes more apparent that it stuffs a lot of attacks. It doesn’t have a lot of range, but it seems to be tough to actually hit Chun Li during this attack. I’ve counter poked strong normals like Bison c.MP with this. I think some low normals can low profile it, but haven’t been able to actually test it vs those normals. This move gets nutty good at close range with V Trigger active. 3 hits for big white chip while keeping yourself positive. Can force people to burn V Reversals and counter hit people trying to escape throw via backdash well. Supposedly gains the ability to absorb projectiles in V Trigger.

**s.MP: **4 frame start up, plus 3 on block. Main normal to start pressure and hit confirms at closer range. Cancelable. Combined with her good walk speed allows her to walk in and tick throw nicely even if the push back is still a bit much. Does well against some higher ranged pokes.

f+MP: 4 frame start up, plus 2 on block. Good to keep frame advantage in footsies vs high and mid ranged pokes. Very good range. Best ranged poke that is plus on block. Some low range pokes can low profile it so have to be a bit careful.

s.MK: 8 frame start up, minus 2 on block, not cancelable. Not super fast and a bit negative on block, but strong if spaced well. Her best poke overall for stuffing other attacks. If you’re afraid of using the wrong normal just use this and see what happens. Hits at a good angle where it can stuff most low and higher ranged attacks. Not cancelable or anything but covers the most bases as far as purely poking goes.

s.HP: 11 frame start up, negative 5 on block. You generally don’t want to use this on block unless you’re near max range and low on meter. This is mainly a whiff punish tool. Only 80 damage on hit, but 200 stun so you can blow up people throwing bad footsies pretty easily with this. Bit more useful on block in V Trigger as it does 3 hits for heavy white chip added to each block.

b+HK. 7 frame start up, works vs most jump ins. Much better than her situational AA game in SFIV. That’s all it’s good for. Has no real lower hit box.

General stuff. People need to use Ryu’s s.MK more. Karin has a lot of good buttons also. c.MK is now her new main cancelable poke with great range. s.MK lost cancel property but, looks similar in properties to Chun’s s.MK for stuffing lots of pokes. s.HK crush counter looks nice too.


#3

Chun Is so good, people are like “chun sucks” and you’re so right about how great she is on the ground. Especially since this is a grounded game.

Funny thing is people are gonna end up bitching about Chun being nerfed. Not early on, but like months from now. Like they’ll start by bitching about r mika, karin, and laura, also zangief too after they eat a few too many counter s. fps at the intermediate level.

Then when the game evolves, they’ll hate chun. I might play some Chun too later.I love (no jumping) sfv

NO JUMPING!

I like Chun alot. I’m gonna start with Mika but I can easily see myself playing Chun. She’s a lot like Mika where every button she has is pretty good and has a purpose. Only reason I didn’t play Chun in beta 1 is because I was playing Cammy before she was nerfed because she was like a better version of Chun imo (but not now, even so You gotta admit that being a level 41 Cammy in the beta means a lot of play/win) heh.

But then they fucked her b+hp. I would play Chun in beta 1 if that was what we were up to. SFV is a monsterous footsie game and Chun is good to go on that for sure. I also like how she has all 6 buttons crouching and standing that are good for relatively ranged footsies. Only thing I’m wary about for Chun is funny enough…Mika and Karin, and we can’t test that in the beta. I can see both mika’s s. mk and Karin’s c. mk and s. mk beating chun li, but we can’t test that. Especially mika’s s. mk which I honestly think is the best move in the game that I’ve seen. It’s a better version of cammy’s s. mk imo which was my previous best move in the game… I’ll have to reserve my notions on that heh, we’ll see in the beta after that goes.

I expect to be playing mika like I did cammy in the first beta, a bunch of s. mks and c. mp anti airs while I quietly walk people to the corner where I can murder them. Not even that many command throws, so when I do them no one will ever see them coming. Throw in her really nasty frame tramps with s. mp and it’ll be pretty ugly. She fucking hurts too, I can afford to take risks. Mika is really good.

I’m gonna be hitting that mk button ALOT. That seriously is mika’s best move and it has to be amongst the best moves in the game. Why would you not use it? over and over? Moves that can counter it? Chun’s s. fp! hehe (at max range)


#4

I would like a Bison player to chime in. I felt like as Cammy (this was in beta 1) that as soon as I blocked a scissor kick I could do a s. jab and there wasn’t much he could do other than an ex reversal or super. Am I wrong? I watch these tourney players do scissor pressure and it seems that shuts that down immediately? Like if Justin Wong was running his bison scissor kick pressure on me I should be able to just tap jab due to my frame advantage. (I get that the game was newer) Am I wrong?

I think Mika has the same speed jab so I should be able to do the same thing with her, which is gonna make it ugly since I can just giant swing bison if he scissor kicks and decides to block. Though that’s a minor mixup.


#5

He can’t even do an EX special. Basically after any blocked LK SK Bison has ceded frame advantage to the other player and must take the pressure. He may be able to backdash out of the range of a jab though, I’m not sure.


#6

That’s true. Cammy would have ended up being better than Chun overall with the way the first beta was going (better bnbs, better V Skill), but now that light to medium confirms are nerfed and crush counters give you a way to build V Gauge without relying on your V Skill that indirectly buffs Chun quite a bit I think. Chun being able to get access to her short bar V Trigger by just landing one crush counter b+HP and getting hit a couple times is really good to have. Supposedly her V Skill builds a tiny bit of V Gauge even if you whiff it now.

That’s why I like sticking with the under the radar characters. Don’t know when the game is going to start swinging stuff in their favor. Play one of the known strong characters and you never know what’s going to get shaved off.

Mika’s s.MK and s.HK both look really good. Walk speed isn’t amazing, but serviceable considering she has good ways to move around the screen without walk speed and ideally wants to be at point blank range. I wonder her negative her s.HK is on block without charging it. I hear it’s much safer once charged.


#7

I’m confused as to why sponsored players go ahead and eat the pressure? I’m not going to be cocky enough and say that I’m better, so why are they just sitting there blocking in the corner? Or was it just the fact that the game was newer. Bison just isn’t that good. Wouldn’t you just tap quick buttons to test it out even so if you were learning the new game? It’s weird. I watch sf4 players and honestly feel like I could beat them in stv in footsies (outside of momochi, I like his videos and play). Like for gods sake I see Cammy players not using s. mk? wtf? PR ROG is a footsies player and he was playing cammy and not using s. mk? Wha? I jammed on that shit, it’s her best button!

Anyone else feel that way? Heh I guess I’ll be proved wrong probably when I visit a major. Or hey, maybe not. Hey maybe I can be a new guy that does well and everyone is like “Hey slizzard is good at sfv” who knows and I beat the named players =P. It’s just weird to watch though when I see people neglecting their blatantly best buttons, especially when they get to play the game more than me?


#8

The fact that people haven’t realized that he’s both minus and that his jab is 4f is probably why. I had a ridiculous GM Bison win rate of around 95% in the beta, but that’s probably because people just won’t stop hitting buttons and jumping. He’s just not that good once people realize that his force projection is weak and very meter dependent; I won’t call him weak because using his EX Blast to approach hasn’t been explored and it’s t-many months to launch, but I think he’s vastly overrated by a lot of shitty players.


#9

Something for perspective. Alucard got a 100 win win streak at Evo on the competitive SFV kiosk (winner stays). Which means that either Alucard is really good or Bison just has a very basic gameplan that works well when the meta is limited.

You’d think he’d be prime to just run Bison c.MP into scissors into win in that 8 man exhibition yesterday.

About 26 min in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6KeCaXsHNE#t=25m43s

Instead he looks pretty shaky and didn’t make it past the first round. A lot of people were hyping up Bison for being nearly the best in the beta and only getting new buffs with his forward dash now being a teleport outside of V Trigger, but against strong competition in a later beta he didn’t perform as well.


#10

I didn’t play bison I felt he SHOULD be good but I unfortunately didn’t play people that played him properly in beta 1. Definitely when he threw me I felt so scrubby because for gods sake you shouldn’t be getting thrown by bison with his slow ass ticks.

Fortunately I didn’t get thrown much, heh.

I usually blocked his scissor kick and felt like it put HIM in a mixup. Like hey lets do s. lp, throw, or some frame trap

At no point did I feel threatened after blocking a scissor kick. I would ust block one and then decided “oh, now it’s time for me to hit buttons” and he just had to deal with it. Not just with cammy either, with anyone. I don’t get those folks sitting in the corner being like “wahhhhhhhhh i’m scared I must block a c. lk now” Do you?

Even in sf4 I didn’t feel like that, I don’t get it heh. sfv is even weaker.

It’s probably -2 on block, might even be -3. It’s awful, he’s REALLY WEAK on block. If you stand jab after his scissor kick unless he busts out a super or something, he better block.

I don’t get why people are pressured by him at all. If J wong tried his shit on me I’d be like uh, s. jab sorry. That’s not how shit works, you know?


#11

Bisons obviously no joke. Players better than me are holding him down. I’m interested in finding out why I’m wrong. Of course there’s always that “good player psych” where stuff that doesn’t work on crappy players works on good players too, which is another story(wake up dps etc)

The story is clearly Karin, the new Cammy. Hey hit some buttons and everying is ok!

God you are all gonna be so sick of Karin. She’s (I hope gonna be nerfed) hitbox wise. Cuz why not just hit some buttons? Fuck it lets do it! Who needs rekkas! I’m cammy!

What is Karin’s weakness? Is she bad at ANYTHING? People complaining in the Karin thread about her rekkas are funny. They don’t understand the game. If she had no v trigger, she’d be a monster. With her v trigger, she’s just that much better. She does more damage, has more range, has bettter hit boxes, better hit confirms…is there anything she’s not better than everyone else at? For gods sake name one thing someone is better than her at. Anything. MAYBE r mika has a better max range poke with s. mk. That’s it. Then we’re done.


#12

I think he’s one of those characters that has some easy good stuff, but playing him at a high level is going to require more work and not be as easy as people make it out to be.

Bison is a really good example for explaining the strength of footsies. Bison has a lot of really good buttons, but if you don’t have the walk speed to make those normals really relevant for poking and whiff punishing, then you’re kinda playing more like Makoto without a command grab. Which now it doesn’t surprise me that they gave him a (slightly nerfed?) version of his V Trigger dash he can use normally. Either way in or out of V Trigger he can only move forward with that dash and he has a pretty poor backdash so he can’t really force whiff punishes by walking back like other characters. He kinda just sits with his buttons and hopes for a scissors knockdown from what I’ve seen.

He has different good buttons like c.MP, s.MP and especially his s.HK which is plus 3 and crush counters, but the slow movement makes his actual footsies questionable for me. He’s never moved this slow on the ground in any SF ever. This is definitely a different Bison.

That’s why I’m really like Chun and Karin so far. Both have good buttons and walk speed and have some relatively safe pressure options as they get in. Main thing I like with Chun over Karin ATM is that she has a more straightforward V Trigger. It still has some tech and combos to be figured out with it, but once you pop you kinda just run it for a set time. Karin’s is going to take longer to figure out if it’s really good or not because different things burn your V Trigger quicker and they’ve increased the meter burn per rekka significantly from her debut.

You are right in that in this stage theoretically she could do fine vs most of the cast even if her V Trigger was terrible. Not that I think it is, but that’s how ideal her situation seems right now. If V Triggers become really important that may hurt her a bit if it is really as weak as some make it out to be, but she’ll manage. LOL.


#13

I said before that Karin would be nerfed because well, let’s face it, everyone else has been nerfed.

So I’m not sweating it too much. Mika will probably be nerfed too heh. (and she should, she looks really scrubby atm)

That seems to be the mo, start folks off and then bump them down a bit. I’m fine with that.

Funny thing is your Chun keeps going under the radar and her footsies are so fucking good it’s not even funny, in a footsies based game. Though the game isn’t released yet so who knows. In the current play she’s probably the best of the original 6 atm (she used to be like 4.5 / 5.5 Cammy and then cammy get nerfed, which was her only bad match, she also cleanly beat bison and birdie imo) Of course I’m sure there’ll be multiple more changes.

I still think Nash is garbage and he needs buffs. He does relatively low damage and his frame traps are easy to just flat out hit buttons to interrupt.


#14

People aren’t playing footsies in this game yet because they largely don’t have an intimate knowledge of every normal’s hitbox. Helps that some characters like Vega/Chun had their animations changed from SF4.


#15

I think Karin’s primary weakness is that her gameplan is somewhat narrow-minded.

To explain what I mean, take Cammy, who is a much more simple character in terms of how she executes her gameplan.

Cammy has some okay buttons that she can use to bully the opponent and get a knockdown and begin/continue her offense. She has some ways to confuse the opponent with side-switches, as well. But if she encounters a situation where this gameplan doesn’t work, she has alternative ways to approach things. If she’s getting outpoked, she can attempt to go around the pokes with divekicks, for example, or she can switch gears and become a turtle with her excellent DP.

In the realm of “details,” Karin has much more freedom than just about every SF5 character. She doesn’t have the same feeling of “canned strings/combos” that some other characters do. But in terms of overall strategy, I think it’s pretty certain what Karin wants to do. She doesn’t have the crazy mobility to go around your defense, and she isn’t a wild rushdown character who tends to win the game off one chance.

So she takes the traditional rekka-style measured pressure approach, where she walks you to the corner and wears you down. For that purpose, she has the walkspeed and pokes to be able to at least compete with anyone, and enough mixup on offense to be a threat. If she lacked either of those things, her character wouldn’t work.

What you have to do, then, is put the character out of their comfort zone first. Use the flexibility that your character has and the rekka character doesn’t. If you’re Rashid/Bison, you have plenty of ability to stay out of her wheelhouse and play an aerial/distance game. In particular, most of her anti-airs move her forward so she may have trouble if she lets an opponent get close enough to reach crossup range (that’s part of the job of her pokes.) She has some anti-fireball tools, but outside of super/VT they have to be done ahead of time and they’re somewhat unsafe, so she’s probably also a little more susceptible to long-range zoning than most characters (for what that’s worth in SF5.) And if there is any character that actually can consistently outpoke her (possibly Birdie/Vega/Dhalsim?) life will become very hard for her very quickly, because she doesn’t have the health/damage risk/reward to play an odds game.

I think Mika and Bison are both in the “newbie crusher” bin. Mika’s weaknesses will become clearer when she fights people who are willing to just sit there and press some good mid-level buttons, then go on offense when they score a hit. For example, if you can picture the hitbox of Sagat crouching fierce, Mika’s low/standing forward and s.RH all lose to that, and her movespeed is not the best for whiff-punishing that kind of thing. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think she would have a really hard time with a high-level Birdie or Nash.

Chun has been underrated since E3 and will probably stay there for a while. I think Nash’s normals are underrated too, though. On the point of his damage, his punishes are not so special, but his damage off basic meterless combos are actually pretty good compared to most characters. Karin has the same tradeoff, where her punishes are not that much better than her regular combo.


#16

I don’t think you understand how fighting games work. First you talk about how Ryu only needs a better St.MP and cr.MK, without realizing that a better hitbox on St.mp is useless because of pushback (and cr.MK would’ve been buffed to make it even more useless). Now you’re saying that Karin should be nerfed because she’s good? WHY ARE PEOPLE SO AFRAID IF GOOD CHARACTERS NOWADAYS? People are so OK with nerfs is ridiculous, look at the SF5 GD thread and you have people saying it’s OK that characters are getting nerfed, because capcom is still “testing things out”. Yeah that’s all fine and dandy until the game is released and everyone sucks like in SF4. Seriously, everytime someone is nerfed you guys need to complain unless it’s something ridiculously broken.


#17

I have to play by myself to get more impressions. I only played on Gamescom and Beta1 so far and I only played Cammy and Bison.

Fact is, I had no problemes winning the neutral with Cammy at all, her st.mp stays out forever and has great range,her mk’s have incredible good range and recover fast,her sweep is ok and her cr.hp is amazing,on max range it’s safe and I got a lot crushcounters just with throwing a second out after this. Her st.hk is a great anti-air and her DP will eat all jump-ins. They turned Cammy more into a ST/CVS2 like Cammy and I sometimes switched back to my old CVS2 mentality and just wanted to walk up and HP people.
I feelt that Cammy had by far the most flexible groundgame,her V-Skill was great against projektiles and her normals were nearly broken good. Her divekick isn’t that great unless it’s EX or a realy low hitting one, but that ok. Her Hooligan is finaly a mixup tool,her CA is extremly fast and goes fullscreen.
In my opinion Cammy was by far the best char in Beta Phase 1 and I think she still is. From what I saw people still try to play her SFIV’ish what will result in a lot of punishs for the Cammyplayer.

Comming to Bison he is a walking Tank,nothing more nothing less. He has great anti-airs and some good pokes. His pressure is ok,but can be stomped realy easy. He plays totaly different from all his former incarnations,but thats great. Honestly just walking in with him is scary,his V-Skill can reflect everything,except EX Moves, and he just forces you to do mistakes. His downsite is that he is free on wakeup and has no reversal appart from his CA. I would say he was more medicore in the Beta and not that good like people say.

How much SF have you played so far? This sounds like a 2012 whinner to me.
So far all of Karins Rekkas looked extremly punishable, most people at SCR didn’t played much SFV, James Chen even said most of them said, they play it today the first time or have under 30min of experience, I think Alucard and PR Rog had the most experience.

From what I saw so far Karin has no real anti-air st.hp looks decent,but tradet a lot,she needs EX to have a good anti-air.

I also think you don’t understand her V-Trigger. Her V-Trigger only gives her all the Rekka mixups and nothing more. Be happy she hasn’t as much as Angel from KoF,one move and 6 different follow ups per Rekka.

They changed things with Karin from A3 first of all her st.hp isn’t stupidly good anymore,her Rekka Mixups are V-Trigger only(Appart from the slide and the throw I think),she has no realy good anti-airs and her pokes are medicore at best, I’m sure Bisons are better.


#18

Don’t mind my snarky posts about Karin, I made a few in a few threads, I was ridiculously drunk when I came home and was on here. I only half remember actually making the posts if that tells you anything. =P


#19

Let’s kill the beta balance discussion and just talk about footsies. That would be better any way.


#20

Anyway, sober comments.

Lets talk about Cammy. I played a lot of Cammy in Beta 1. I’ll follow DevilJin01’s model (I don’t have the frame data for cammy unfortunately)

So…

s. lp:

This is a bit like walking forward with s. lp with rolento in sfa2. Frame advantage on block so good for tick grabs. s. lp, walk forward, s. lp is pretty strong. Has good range for a quick jab.

s. mp:

Doesn’t have huge range but it’s fast and with cammy’s walk speed it can be menacing, it’s like a mini version of Birdie’s s. mp. You’re looking for s. mp, s. fp xx qcf+rh, which you’ll get plenty of with s. mp counterhits. Just walking towards people threatens this move so they might turtle up and cammy’s fast walk speed offers you a throw. C. lp x 2, s. mp has just enough space between the jabs and the mp that it looks like a tick throw is coming, so you can try that out.

s. fp

Huge hit box in front of you. This move reaches further than it looks. It’s a little slower than s. mp but probably only 1-2 frames slower. On counter hit s. fp, s. mp xx drill is a combo so you can look for that.

c. lp

Massive hitbox as far as c. lps go. On counterhit this USED TO combo into s. fp but considering the removal of the light to mediums links c. lp probably has less hit stun than before. Whether that affects counterhit hitstun on this move, I don’t know. c. lp x 2 xx qcf+rh is a hit confirm but be careful on that.

c. mp

Different from her c. mp in other games. She does a punch towards the opponents shins instead of a straight punch like before. It’s fast for a c. mp but has a little less range. c. mp combos into itself. c. mp x 2 xx special is good to go. Good hit confirm.

c. fp

Crush counter. This was a move I didn’t use that much because it was on the slow side and didn’t fit in with my gameplay so I won’t say anything about it for now.

c. lk

This move feels like it has that typical tradeoff between c. lks and c. lps where you’re getting a smaller hitbox in exchange for the move hitting low. C. lk pushes people back less than c. lp. At close range c. lk, c. lp, c. lp xx qcf +rh works.

c. mk

Everyone knows Cammy’s c. mk. It’s the same deal here. There’s no hit confirm here so you should place it at max range since it seems to be relatively slow in this game. Other than that, it’s what you’re used to.

c. rh

Honestly a pretty crappy sweep. It’s fast to start but the recovery is pretty poor, as is par for the course for sfv sweeps. However the range isn’t as good as most other sweeps which limits the usefulness of the move. It is faster than c. mk, but other than situations where you’re punishing moves that c. mk can’t quite punish in time (like a blocked max range sweep from Ryu or something) you might as well do c. mk xx drill.

s. mk

Here’s where Cammy is a monster. You should be using this move regularly, it’s fast, reaches very far, and recovery is excellent. Once you get people used to having to deal with this, it’s funny how often you can just walk right up from afar and throw them.

s. rh

Unfortunately this isn’t cvs2 cammy’s s. rh, It’s a pretty slow arcing roundhouse that causes a crush counter. It can be used as an anti air. This might be more useful now that her b+fp can’t just anti air everything mindlessly like before.

f+rh

This is a great new move! Especially as a meaty. It is fully airborne so it cleanly avoids throws and most low kicks. f+rh leads to standard standing combos like s. mp, s. fp or even at distance c. mp xx drill. On block it is safe but you’re at a disadvantage (probably -2) and you’re right in throw range.

So let’s talk about her biggest nerf:

No more b+fp, which was probably the best anti air in the game.

That’s completely gone. It’s b+mp now and her target combo is now b+mp, hk. The b+mp now seems to be a poor anti air and you can no longer do f+rh, target combo either, the b+mp outright whiffs after f+rh now.

New info on that target combo I won’t get into since I only have played her in the beta, not in the new builds. For sure if you want to anti air with cammy for now though you better use dp+mk (note MEDIUM KICK) since medium seems to have upper invincibility. It’s the same deal as Ryu’s dp.