The SSBM Update: Modes and Items

Well, last year we brought in TVs. All of them were the same size, and they filled up all of the tables we had. It’s not really about TV’s or Gamecubes, it’s about space. So anyway, any math done to estimate time should be done assuming we have 3-5 stations.

3-4 Stock. Time limit 4 minutes for 3 stock and 5 minutes for 4 stock.

If people start running away because time is low, so be it. Happens in every other fighting game ever made.

Seriously consider banning all stages with a huge central barrier and Onett. If you’re behind it’s similar to charging an enemy that’s entrenched. 95 percent of the time you will be shot down, and it’s not even difficult for the defender.

Actually, I’d take out all of the stages except for perhaps 8. Game Over rules for stages are good but add Rainbow Cruise in there.

Speaking of Game Over, it was very poorly run. It actually took more than 12 hours to get everything done. If it was run well I estimate it could have been done in under 6 hours, possibly even under 4.

“Bring your own controller” is pretty much mandatory. I think they had spare sticks for people to use at Evo 2003 but why would you want to use a controller you’re unfamiliar with?

As for pools, just run them tight and make exceptions when you can. If I recall correctly (and the details given to me were correct) the top ST player wasn’t going to be allowed back in but he was actually able to find eveyone in his bracket and get every single person to agree to replay it. I’m assuming that if even one person had said no it wouldn’t have been allowed.

Maybe you could even adjust the time based on how many people show up. Also, I bet you could always steal a TV or two from Virtua Fighter. I don’t think they really need more than one.

Oh, and of course I’d really like a 2vs2 tournament. I’d prefer it over 1vs1, but I’d vote for 1vs1 if only one tournament was held. That’s what most of the SSBM community goes to tournaments for. I suppose I’m in the minority on that one.

TA ON, of course.

if there were to be a ssbm sect in evo i would hella go… not just for ssbm though but for marvel too :slight_smile: this way i have more incentive to go

well anyways, 1v1 is good, probably items off 4 lives 8 minute timer
oh right, all stages allowed excluding yoshi64 and hyrule (i also suggest BF/FD only as it shows bare skill, because 3s/cvs2/mvc2 don’t have obstacles on their stages)
i’m also all for bring your own controller

NO ITEMS. Its makes the game more about skill instead of bombs.

1vs1 is where my vote goes, but team sounds cool also. There isnt a stage I wouldnt ban (only consideration would be Game and Watches Stage).

Stock of 3-5 for ?? amount of time.

If this game makes the cut I will have to add another tourny to the list to join.

Here in AZ, tourneys have been run on 5-stock, 1v1, no items, some of the particular stages banned,no timelimit

although i can see why we would need a timelimit here, obviously because there will be leigons of people, things need to get done quickly so the tournaments can get finished in time.

PLZ ITEMs OFF. this really changes the way an epic battle can be changed in the most cheapest way…imo…it should be set in tournamnet mode…1v1…Final Destination…because its a 2D fighting realm with nowhere to hide…just straight up fighting…either that or Hyrule Castle…its huge with plenty of space and NO distractions…just fighting…also it should be stock not time…stock would be ideal…4 is a reasonable number i would assume.

if this does go down count me in…wether its OFFICIAL evo2004 or just a fanmade one during evo…either way ill be there.

3 stock 4 minutes? Might as well turn CvS2’s clock to 45 seconds… sheesh…

I think 3 stock is viable, but add another minute onto scamp’s thought. Given his idea, that’s 48 seconds a stock. The timer will go over even when people aren’t even turtling, a lot. 5 minutes at least will make someone turtle if they wanna go over.

As for items, as much as I like playing in 'em, no-items players do have ONE honest complaint, and that’s the random capsule drop. I’ve seen far too often Isai, for example, rushing someone down with Falcon’s air A’s, and one flying air A right when a nitro capsule drops in his path, he can’t exactly stop in time, and kaboom. That’s no good. I seriously hope that in the next SSB, capsules/crates/barrels have a toggle… but, I digress. I’ll play either way, doesn’t matter too much, but I definitely say Low if items on, Very Low makes them too overpowering, just because that one person that didn’t get an item has to wait for a counter forever or deal with 'em.

As for stages, the guy who said FD only is crazy. FD is indeed a flat level, meaning lopsided results. No platforms means zoning hell. You need to have a couple stages with multiple platforms, like Dreamland, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi’s Story, or Poke Stadium. Outside of these and FD, I think all the other stages need to take a hike.

hyrule castle should be the one stage of cohoice, its huge, lots of place to run and jump, and no distractions…just a flat fighting ground…no level distractions or anything to distract the fight.

Hyrule is a very bad idea. Fast characters like Fox can run circeles around the middle portion of the stage, allowing him to evade slower characters for ever. He doesn’t even need a lead because he can just blaster you while running away. Basicly giving Fox a free win against a lot of characters. Trust me, I’ve seen it happen and it’s definitly not something you want to allow to happen during a tournament. It’s usually banned for this reason.

Stages: FD, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland 64, Battlefield, Corneria, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi Story. Corneria and Yoshi’s are debatable, but the other level are the fairest levels in the game.

Rules:
No items- Like GOST aka Dave said no one wants to go home a loser because a random bomb fell on them in a match. And since the levels selected are very fair, then camping won’t be as big of an issue. Possiblely on Corneria but that levels camping is probably the least troublesome of the campable stages.

4-5 stock, 8 minute time limit- I understand there is a tight time schedule, but 3 stock is nothing. 5 stock is prefered since it’s the most fair, but 4 stock is acceptable. 8 minute time limit is long enough for a decent match and short enough to eliminate time constraints. if the stock is set to 4 then 7 minutes could work too, MAYBE 6.

best of 3, best of 5 for semis, best of 5 double set for finals- Most fair setup, not that bad. Finals would be best of 5. If the winner bracket player wins the first set he wins it all. If the loser bracket player wins the first set then they play a second set to find the winner.

double elimination- best for finding 1st and 2nd. Also eliminates the “well if so and so didn’t use a counter character I would have been the next blah amount of guys”

2 characters per person- Players enter as 2 characters. Must select primary character until they lose a match then have to option to change

slob picks- loser of a match can either pick the next stage (which would be the 7 stages and maybe even a few extra allowed) or change his/her character to the secondary character.

Thats all I have to add. I think banning things like the IC glitch would be dumb, since pulling it off in a REAL match is so hard that it should be a reward. However, I think a stipulations should be added that if you do a freezing glitch and can’t KO the character or remove them from being frozen then you lose the match.

Peace

Yay :). That saves me a lot of arguing.

Team battle is infinitely better than 1vs1. It’s more interesting to watch, more fun to play, and is considerably deeper. The only thing that keeps 2vs2 from becoming the dominant form are the scrubby preconceived notions that 1vs1’s are somehow “better”. It’s plain bullshit to say that people “go for the 1vs1”; people go for the competition. There has been no successful tournament that did not have a 2vs2, and people are generally more enthusiastic about team events.

Not to mention that smash brothers just works better with four players. You don’t have to be near as restrictive with stock/time settings, the items debate is less consequential, a greater variety of characters can be used effectively, and more stages have less problems. 2vs2 is basically superior in every way. It offers the highest level of competitive play, and that’s why I hope Evo will set it as the standard.

The issue of team attack isn’t as complicated as it’s made it out to be: TA OFF = 2vs2, TA ON = cooperative 1vs1’s. Though TA ON players will tell you its better because it requires being aware of your partner, not being able to hit your partner in TA OFF, doesnt mean you have to be any less aware of them. The most significant difference with TA ON is that the inability to attack in conjunction with your partner limits offensive possibilities, and in turn, limits what needs to be responded to defensively. Nearly all the good crews play TA OFF, and I’ve never met anyone outside the online world who plays with it ON.

Neutral staging is very bad idea; there aren’t any neutral stages, and it’s one of the most biasing things you can do to a tournament. The only thing neutral staging serves to do is make the game more manageable for bad players…and (aside from being boring) that isn’t fair to players who can take advantage of the more complex stages. They aren’t less character biased, they aren’t less influential in the match, they aren’t less turtle inducing - they aren’t a good idea. If there really were an accepted fair, players wouldnt have a hard time agreeing on stage instead.

When it comes to banned stages, Yoshi 64, Hyrule Temple, and Great Bay are givens, but Brinstar Depths and (especially) Venom also need to go. Brinstar Depths has obvious problems that make it less than a good tournament stage, and Venom is campable to the point of being broken. People dont consider it an infinite run because theres no visible loop, but its just as difficult to stop as Great Bay. With many characters its possible to always be on the side your opponent is not, and good players simply cant fight each other there. There are others worth debating (pokefloats, big blue, ect.), but those are the most detrimental.

Slob picks should work such that if the winner does have to keep the same character, the loser doesn’t have the option of counterpicking a stage. A lot of people arent going to like a forced random/agree, so the best method is probably: loser picks stage, winner picks char, loser picks char. The important thing is not to give a player the chance to know which character and have the stage choice. Stages play such a huge role that having a rule against double staging is also a good idea.

About items… for one on ones Low works, but if you make it teams (and you should!), Medium is the best setting. The drop frequency stays the same regardless of how many players there are, and there will actually be slightly fewer drops per person with Medium 2vs2, than with Low 1vs1.

Tragic’s item list is good, but with a few exceptions… this post is getting a bit long, though, so I’ll just give my opinions now and save my arguments for later if they’re wanted. Warp Star, Proximity Mine, and Star Rod should definitely be turned on. Red shell and Super Scope(for 2vs2) should be added to the off list. Flippers and Barrel Cannon don’t make much difference either way, so Hammers and Homerun Bats are the only really hard calls. Personally, I’d like to see Hammers stay, especially for teams.

My only problem with TA off is that when it finally gets down to a 2v1 situation, the chances of that one having a prayer of winning is practically zero. The teammates have no qualms about charging through their teammate to stop the final opponent from MOVING, let alone attacking back. If the 1 player does win, and the two opponents weren’t at a ridiculously high percentage on their last stock (100%+), while the 1 was at a low percentage(20%-), then the 2 sucked in comparison to the 1, and the teammate sucked even more. Yes, in TA on, you have to be aware of your teammate. This is way better than the blind charge of defense. In TA off, that’s all you need for defense is a blind charge to stop a teammate from getting beat up, or to instigate a 2v1. The fact that both teams can do this means nothing.

TA on makes you THINK before you act. Especially when trying to save a teammate, or go 2v1. It makes you think about your range, and forces you to communicate with your teammate in order to reach a common goal. Smashy Smashy will just end up hurting yourself more than your opponents. Also, the TA off tactic of “knock one off the platform, and run over and 2v1 someone until he recovers, repeat” isn’t the only plausible tactic in a TA on situation. The reason why NorCal all play TA on? We’ve tried it, and seen what can happen in TA off, and it pretty much boiled down to the teammate that’s off first loses the match. What’s the point of multiple stock? Sure, it wasn’t always like that, but more often than not.

The fact that you can hit your teammate means now you not only need to watch what your opponent is doing, what his teammate’s doing, and what you’re teammate’s done to one of them, but what your teammate is doing at the time as well, and be able to work around each other. You now must put equal, if not more care in your teammate’s well being than your own.

Finally, TA on means that a 2v1 is feasible for the 1 to win. Because the two now only have one target to aim for, and one to avoid, it makes them think twice about bum rushing and raping the one. Now, the 1 can try to dance around 'em, make 'em hit each other, but smarter teams will know better. This makes them play tag team. One’ll come after the 1, and the other will wait for an opportunity to finish, in safe distance, or come in and save the teammate, or distract the opponent so the teammate can survive. Despite it being 2v1, unless the 2 is way beyond the 1 in total stock/percentage, then there’s a hope for the 1 to make a comeback. TA off, comebacks of an equal stock/percentage, the chances of the 1 winning if the teams are remotely equal in skill is around 15%. TA on, it’s about 40%. This means in TA on, the fight’s not over by a long shot when only one’s left standing.

Even in TA off, it’s never a true 2v2. 2v2 in that respect never exists. Even in TA off, it’s 1v1 and 1v1 at first, until one player is seperated from the pack, then it’s 2v1 until the player gets back in. The fact that in TA off, the duration of this moment of 2v1 is a moment of absolute horror instead of minor panic in TA on is significant enough to want to do TA on over off.

Not to take any thing away from Evo 2004, I thought the SSBM players would like to know that there is some type of regional/national tourney going on for the game.

http://www.thevgames.com/site13.php

I really don’t play the game, came across it from a Halo player (which is also on the tourney lists) . None the less, hope this helps for those who did not know about it.

Rules and Items

After reading extensivley here about this topic…I think most people are really losing site of what sets Smash apart from mainstream fighting games now a days…4-PLAYER! One on one is cool as well as 2vs2…but the real deal comes out when its 4 player every man for himself. Items are also a really big part of Smash whereas some characters that cannot fight well straight up; the items can sometimes balance it out. I think dumbing the game down or turning certain items off should not be an option. It all adds to the excitement of the game. We have a pretty large following of Smash here in tha Chi…where as we have tourneys quite often…

we play 4 player…items on(medium)…stock 5 man…and thats it!
each match usually lasts about 7 minutes where as the top two players advance until we have reached the final four…winner always picks his or her board which only includes: Pokemon Stadium- Final Destination- and the OG Kirby Dreamland…character changes are allowed!

Glad to see Smash has such a large following :cool:

Rules and Items

I think someone already spoke for this concept here already, but I should restate it. FFA is fun and all, but when money’s on the line, it becomes broken.

FFA is all about politics. To get a higher spot, people will ally with other people in their current spot, and team up on anyone not in the alliance until that’s all that’s left. This becomes quickly unfair to anyone not part of the “team”. This can even happen in fun time if one player is significantly better than the rest. Gang raped by 3 normally less skilled players is something even the best of people can’t do well.

As far as items go, even if items were on, certain items are bad to the point of being broken simply because of too much of a random factor. It’d be like hitting Fierce w/ Sagat and once in a while getting his taunt, or once in a while doing 3x damage. The random aspect automatically takes out Pokeballs and Party Balls. Next comes the problem of “all advantage/no consequences” items. The heart and tomato, for extremes, are a half/full stock given to the player, with no effort outside of picking it up. To a lesser extent, Stars, SMush’s, and even less Hammer and Cloaking Device, but all enough to be removed from play.
Hammer and Star more falls into the “not worth the time wasted”, because opponents for the most part can avoid an invincible opponent as well as a hammer-weilding one, but can’t stop them, sand the one that could go for the item too knows this, so it’s just a waste of time to both of 'em, so they wait until it dissipates, as that is faster.
Finally, the one that really causes problems to the point where there’s no choice but turning them off entirely to fix it, is the random “ass-fucked” factor. This one goes to Poison Mushrooms, Bob-ombs, capsules, barrels and crates to a lesser exent, and SMush’s too, to a lesser extent. Items drop into play at about 2-3 character’s height. When in the middle of an attack, frequently an item will spawn in that players attack path. If it were a PMush, Bob-omb or capsule, that player goes BOOM without having a chance to deal with it. Similarly, barrels, crates and PMush’s make no sound at all. If you’re both fighting together up close, the camera zooms in a lot, so seeing a rolling barrel/crate/PMush is damn near impossible to see and react in time, and more often than not is impossible to, since you’re probably in hit stun at the time. PMush’s can be turned off, however, Nintendo once again forgot to add the option to turn of the containers, which the only way to fix is to get rid of 'em altogether. Sadly, when it comes down to money, the small chance of this happening becomes enough to give 'em the hike. I know I wouldn’t wanna be in a tourney, get so close to the cash, and then have a nitro capsule be in my path at the wrong time.

I see your point Maelstrom…but those random factors you speak of are what makes Smash so exciting…IMO! I understand about the gang-up…that can get pretty hectic, but the way you limit scrubs is; you lower the stock which is why we have it set to 5…and also top two advance…it really helps out because you cant just go after 1 guy because the top 2 advance…hence there’s always the factor of clawing and fighting for the second spot. But these are just my views of the game. I think thats another good thing about Smash; different people can enjoy it so many different ways! Thanx

I’m sorry, but it’s idiotic to say that TA ON is better because gives you a better chance of winning a 1vs2. No smart players should ever lose a 2vs1, ever. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing ON or OFF, if a single player can take two out, the two are doing something very wrong. And that’s as it should be anyway- it’s TEAM battle, if your teamate is eliminated first, you lose. This doesn’t make comebacks less likely, it just means they happen at a different time.

You say that TA OFF sucks because you’re fucked if you lose your partner, and at the same time claim that TA ON is better because it requires you to look out for your partner. The incentive to be aware of your teamate in TA ON is that you’ll hit them. TA OFF, the match depends on being aware each other.

And then you talk about how 2vs1 is overpowered in TA OFF, but go on to say that 2vs2s don’t truly exist in either mode. I see, so if you’ve got one opponent your team can attack so effectively together that they can’t even “move, let alone attack back”, but if there’s two it somehow becomes 1vs1s?

Team attack ON arguments don’t add up.

Ok I have a really quick question. Let’s say that you accept SSBM. Or if you already have im not sure cause I havent read all of the posts. But whoever the winner is what would they get. Sorry im not familiar with this whole evo tournament.

Sounds like someone’s still disgruntled from TG3.

You and CORY are a prime example that defeats your statement here. I cracked out of a 3 stock teams match before either of you lost one, and Locke damn near beat you two on his own (IIRC, you were out completely, CORY and Locke both above 100% on last stock at the very end, 4 rotations of Rainbow Cruise was it?)

TA On makes a 2v1 not so broken. If the two have no qualms about striking through each other, than the 1 has no chance to get an attack out at all. If they can hit each other as well, it makes them not out-rightly double team so easily. Double-teaming is still very well possible in TA On, but take a bit more teamwork than “smashy smashy smashy smashy” TA Off.
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There’s you’re problem right there. You see those two statements and think they contradict, but they don’t. TA Off allows a teammate to be unconcerned to the point where one player can spam a smash attack, and the other can cover the lag of the smash long enough for the teammate to smash again (Peach loves this). This is nothing short of impossible to stop once it gets going, is dirt easy to do, and quickly seperates an opponent from his teammate, bringing to the final point. If the teammate can be hit by the smash that his teammate does, he can’t completely cover the lag by the smash, giving them free reign to do it again. See virtually any combination of Peach/Fox/Falco/Shiek/Ice Climbers/Marth/Pikachu/Bros./Falcon/Ganondorf for these results.
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You read wrong. 2v2’s don’t exist in TA Off for long. Basically, both sides creep along the stage going “smashy smashy smashy cover lag smashy smashy smashy” until one of the creepy teams hits one another. Now that team is seperated, so it’s time to prey on the one while the other one is coming back. Usually, by the time the one comes back, they’ve beaten the fuck out of the one, knock him away, and switch targets to the one that’s returned. The cycle continues until one dies, and in more cases than not, the first one to get hit is the team that loses because of this cycle. Mind you, this IS the extreme of the crap, but it’s shit like this that really makes 2v2 dull and bullshit.

2v2 TA On can exist, it’s just that a lot of people are too paranoid of their own teammates to actually DO the teamwork. Only the people who can anticipate each other or can communicate to each other can team up without hurting themselves. That’s the essence of teamwork. It’s even MORE important, and more difficult to maintain when it’s 2v1. It’s also the reason why those that prefer to split apart and drag it into two 1v1s lose more easily than those that know each other well enough.