Saiki just made my heart grow three times this day!
…which is probably a serious medical problem but I don’t care! I’m walking on friggin’ sunshine!
Saiki just made my heart grow three times this day!
…which is probably a serious medical problem but I don’t care! I’m walking on friggin’ sunshine!
Glad to see you posting Saiki! I’ll be glad to post my findings. Right now, I’m just going through the history of the thread for on going items that were either unresolved or translations that seemed off. I’ll be done in about a week or so and then I’ll make mention soon after that.
Tiamat recently responded and graciously allowed the use of his file found here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/b7vff3
However his first recommendation remains the same as mine: you’re better off starting from scratch. End.
do you know it’s impossible to find that Alpha Movie interview I was credit for in the old guide now? it’s been so long that now it’s gone, so trying to find it on the net would be a waste of effort.
It’s mostly that the translations are only barely readable because of broken English grammar.
Also for a long time Vasili claimed that some of the Japanese quotes were quite explicit in saying that Gouken and Gen were not alive for real, and then Azrael came to this section and said there wasn’t the slightest hint of that. From what I see, that had to do with Vasili wanting to see way too much into those quotes, not because he made a faulty translation of them (other than the broken English as usual).
Indeed. There was also the blatant misrepresentation of the events of Gouken & Gouki’s epilogue’s in SF4 in order to further support the “ghost” argument. There’s also inaccuracies in the guide regarding the Shen Long situation.
The shear illegibility of the translated quotes is what most people talk about though…they make some of SNKs worst engrish look positively Shakespearean.
I was CCed on one of the E-mails so I can confirm that we have been in contact with Tiamat at least. He’s not dead hooray! Lol!
For what it’s worth me and vasili10 will continue the CFE Faq bit by bit. I won’t make a big thing about it on Warrior’s Fate. Just check my sig whenever it changes, probably a month or two from now. Any questions on quote translations feel free to PM me.
A couple of folks have already mentioned items that are important for the new plot guide and I’ll mention a couple too… Are we going to keep the JP names or go with the American names? Personally for posterity alone it’s good to have the JP names. Gouki’s name really defines who he is… Someone with a strong spirit. Akuma? Techincally he isn’t an evil spirit. Powerful yes. But not demonic though.
What is the exact aftermath of SF2? Did dictator get SGS’d by Gouki, was the SF4 C. Viper trailer the end of the tourney, or did both of those things happen? Not aware of anyone asking Ono-san this, so I’ll give it a go.
Any chance of retranslations of Vas work, especially pre SF4? To his credit lots of stuff he had right. But many things he’s put together ain’t that easy to understand.
Is Zangief gay? Personally I don’t think so. Lol
Personally, I really loved Tiamats guide, and I’m not sure you even really CAN start from scratch and still contain a lot of the more interesting information in it, since a lot of it comes from personal sources that you won’t likely be able to find reference for anywhere else on the internet.
That was always my problem with it. Back in the Tiamat days, the guide for me, was how I familiarized myself with the entire SF mythology. And I spent hours reading it and all the translated information was fascinating and informative.
Once Vas took over, all the translated sections suddenly read like they’d been fed through Googletranslate.
Yeah, it was probably a much more literal translation, but it became much worse at it’s intended purpose of informing people about SF because just making sense of it became a complete chore.
Someone should definitely take it into their own hands, daunting as it is.
Japanese names seem more suitable, although over there at b64 we use the American ones in all the files and data we have (except for Muscle Bomber/Slam Masters, that’s all Japanese version though). Anyway, you can never mistake with Dictator, Claw and Boxer.
I’m positive that Gouki killed Dictator with SGS at the end of SF2. However, I’m not entirely sure what exactly happened on the tournament itself.
I didn’t notice anything that would hint that, so no, I don’t think so either. Zangief is a typical Russian/Soviet stereotype guy, big wrestler who gives everything for his country, definitely not a gay. Not sure where did that come from.
As for SF4, hopefully Ultra SF4 will make some clear things clear.
Also, I’m supporting the opinion of doing the plot guide from scratch, but it will be very difficult to do for whoever is planning to do that. The previous plot guide contains a lot of useful info which you won’t want to miss. I’ll also be very glad to provide help together with other b64s.
I would stick with jap names too.
The SF2 ending is pure conjecture.
One of the theories is that T. Hawk, Cammy and Guile met Vega (they are the only ones who really need Vega to be defeated for their ending to happen) and their ending happened. Then, Gouki appeared and SGS Vega. From here, two things might have happened:
1 - Gouki SGS Vega and left the dictator lying on the ground. Vega survives and his post SF2 black and white picture happens (even Guile’s ending could have happened after this incident. Just take a look at his JAPANESE SSF2X ending… and remember that AASF3 in 1997 mentions that Shadoloo and Vega are “alive and well”).
2 - Gouki SGS Vega turning his body to flaming powder, only to have his remains found by Ryu (this was mentioned by a Gamest character flowchart when 3rd Strike was launched). Conjectures leads to believe that Vega’s soul entered Seth no 15 before going to vanilla SFIV prologue body.
If memory serves me right, those 4 trailers where just promotional material non canonic material.
What I don’t understand: Why is the way and the moment Akuma appeared up for debate anyway? In the game, the following happens: Just as the final battle is about to happen, Akuma jumps in, kills M. Bison and challenges Bison’s opponent.
If that’s what’s in the game, how is it possible than in canon, Akuma might have appeared after the tournament, killed Bison and then left? Or that Akuma killed Bison with no witnesses so that the dead body could be found later? None of that happens in the game, so how is it possible that this is the official canon? If the game really has top priority in the canon, shouldn’t Akuma’s appearance be like I said above?
I find it ironic that, in this case, a non-canon third party comic (the UDON “Street Fighter” comic) is closer to what actually happens in the game than the officially established canon. So, basically, the official canon contradicts the game itself. How is that even possible?
I’m still fairly sure at this point that Akuma jumping in against Bison never actually happened in SF2.
Yeah, that would be of course the easiest version: Akuma watched the tournament, but found nobody worthy to be challenged by him. So, he never interefered and the part of the game where you don’t encounter Akuma (because you weren’t good enoug) is canon.
This way, we also have no problems with the endings anymore.
That’s another problem by the way: Not only might the official canon contradict the game, but the game itself contradicts itself: Akuma jumps in, kills Bison, but after you defeat Akuma, you still see the regular ending sequence where the people talk with Bison as if they had defeated him.
The difference is in the japanese text. That’s why we can assume that Vega survived/can survive the SGS.
This fact is canon. No one fought Gouki in SF2.
From what I understand, SF2 was a known event to the whole world. We can assume that Gouki heard about Vega being the sponsor and final opponent and decided to test/attack him with his deadliest move…
About the game contradicting itself, just take a look at the Zero 3 conclusion storyline…
But it’s still weird:
In-game, Akuma jumps in, defeats M. Bison and fights Guile. After the battle, Guile grabs Bison who notes that Guile has become stronger.
Or if you play the game with Ryu: Bison still stands on place two of the winners’ podium. “O.k., I cannot fight anymore, so you win by default. But hey, I still go to the ceremony with you.”
Yeah, I know. I was just complaining that the canon and the game don’t match. If they intended Akuma to fight nobody after killing Bison, they shouldn’t have included him into the game. Or, from the other point of view: If there’s a secret opponent in the game who kills the final opponent and then challenges the other finalist, they should have made sure that this is reflected in the storyline as well.
Of course, you could decide that Akuma appearing didn’t canonically happen because it’s just one of two possible outcomes in the game. So, you could say that Akuma watched the fighters and looked out for someone who is worthy. If he had found one, he would have killed Bison and challenged his opponent. Since he didn’t find one, he didn’t jump in, i.e. the scene where you fight M. Bison in the end because you haven’t played well enough for Akuma to appear is canon.
But declaring: “Yes, Akuma did kill Bison like in the game, but no, he didn’t challenge anybody else, nor did the kill happen right when another fighter was about to face Bison”, that’s a huge contradiction.
What exactly are you referring to?
Gouki 's intro where he kills Vega was just a way to introduce him. Bear in mind that we’re talking about a character that wasn’t known to the public right away. People would have questioned “who’s the guy with the weird hair that flashes during the intro?” but they had no idea of who he was or what he was capable of… Then, you play really well, and when you’re about to fight the final boss… this dude appears and kills the final boss with one “single” move… and unless you’re REALLY good to deal with the surprise factor and this dude cheapness… he’ll mop the floor with you. Vega was meant to be the final boss, but since Turbo, his AI became predictable and somewhat easy… (just like in Zero 2 and Zero 3, he’s pretty difficult to defeat in Zero 1)… and then Gouki appears… the first thought is “let’s see if he is a real challenge…” so…
If you play as Gouki, just after he defeats Vega, he mocks him and go away… that’s not conflicting at all. But if you take a look a Cammy and Guile’s ending, you can’t help but ask “yeah, right. but what happened with Vega? Ran away? Died? Was put in jail?” that’s conflicting.
It was said that Vega sponsored SF2 to have his revenge against the one who destroyed the “Psycho Drive”. I don’t see that way. For me, it was to complete his plan from the Zero arc: lure Ryu and possess his body.
The Vega being defeated by Gouki was shown in other games besides SF2 (and they don’t contradict the storyline):
-Gouki’s Zero 1, 2 & 3 ending
-Adon’s Zero 3 ending
You want Zero 3 contradictions?
and the list goes on… Zero 3 expanded the storyline really good… but some of it’s content and conclusion… yuck! If memory serves me right, it was made by the same team that did the SF3 storyline.
The things you said are all correct, but it still doesn’t change the fact that the canon and the game don’t match. If they decide to let Akuma appear at the finale where he kills M. Bison, they should reflect this in the storyline. (Or declare that Akuma’s interference didn’t happen and that the regular final battle against Bison himself is the canon outcome.)
I mean, the UDON comics did it after all. There, it’s similar to the game: Ryu is about to face M. Bison, Akuma appears out of nowhere, fights M. Bison and kills him and then fights Ryu.
No, but you don’t want to claim that this is the version that the canon refers to, do you? The story that Akuma killed Bison with the Shun Goku Satsu is obviously based on the game scene that you get when you play very well and Akuma jumps in and kills Bison. It’s not based on the situation where the player himself selects Akuma via a cheat code and then plays through the game as if Akuma was a regular contestant and faces Bison in the finale, where you can’t even use the Shun Goku Satsu.
It might not be very good story telling, but it has nothing to do with it being conflicting. I.e. there are no contradictions in those scenes. It’s just that they don’t show Bison’s final fate on-screen.
Of course they don’t. (Especially since they didn’t happen in canon.) But I wasn’t referring to them. I was referring to the fact that they declare the pre-battle cutscene from “Super Street Fighter II Turbo” as canon, but yet, in canon it doesn’t play out like in the game.
Those are not contradictions, but what-if scenarios:
If Sakura had fought Bison one-on-one like this, then Dark Ryu would have killed Bison.
If Zangief had reached M. Bison, he would have destroyed the Psycho Drive with Honda’s help and killed Bison in the process.
The scenes don’t contradict each other because most of them never happened and are just what would have happened if that specific fighter had reached Bison. And you don’t see two of these contradicting scenes in one and the same play session.
That’s the case in most fighting games:
In “Mortal Kombat” canon, Liu Kang defeated Shang Tsung, Sub-Zero was killed and Scorpion remained a spectre.
Now, if you win the game with Sub-Zero, he retires and lives on the wealth that he earned by assassinating Shang Tsung.
If you win the game with Scorpion, he becomes a living being again.
Those are not contraditictions. If Sub-Zero had won the tournament, he would have retired. SInce he was killed by Scorpion and since Liu Kang was the final winner, neither Scorpion’s nor Sub-Zero’s ending came to pass. Those two what-if scenarios don’t have to line up with each other. They can contradict each other because only one of them is suposed to happen anyway.
But in “Super Street Fighter II Turbo”, the contradiciton isn’t based on different outcomes, but it appears in one and the same play session:
You play with Ryu and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison stands on the winners’ podium. What the…?
You play with Guile and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison comments on Guile having become stronger. What the…?
They should have done a slightly different ending for when you fight Akuma:
Ryu: Still walking into the sunset, but no ceremony scene. And this time he thinks about the fact that Gouken’s death has been avenged and that Akuma was shown that not everybody is corruptable.
Guile: His wife and daughter still appear, but he doesn’t have to decide on what to do with Bison anymore and they go home just like that.
Cammy: She cannot ask Bison about her past anymore, so she has to head for Vega to get some information. Vega, feeling sorry for her for some reason, tells her a lie: That she was a spy trying to infiltrate Bison’s organization. This way, Cammy doesn’t have to live with the memory that she used to be a killer for Bison’s organization.
Dhalsim: Instead of having a picture of him, Bison and Sagat on the winners’ podium, Dhalsim has reached a higher level of consciousness by defeating Akuma and is now a great guru in India.
Somethign like that.
But the way it is now, most endings just don’t fit anymore when you unlock Akuma as an opponent. They only make sense in the context where you defeat Bison, but not where you defeat Akuma.
What’s actually the status of the plot canon guide? Is it still in development? In the moment, it seems like nobody works on it.
At the beginning, there were some active discussions until Vasili showed up and disallowed the use of his material. Then you waited for him to send you Tiamat’s final revision. And that’s basically it.
Some days ago someone posted a scan of a Japanese text that might be useful. And I think there was a post about Adon. But in the moment, there doesn’t seem to be any organized, systematic work.
So, what’s the current status? Is the project dead?