Someone should definitely take it into their own hands, daunting as it is.
Japanese names seem more suitable, although over there at b64 we use the American ones in all the files and data we have (except for Muscle Bomber/Slam Masters, that’s all Japanese version though). Anyway, you can never mistake with Dictator, Claw and Boxer.
I’m positive that Gouki killed Dictator with SGS at the end of SF2. However, I’m not entirely sure what exactly happened on the tournament itself.
I didn’t notice anything that would hint that, so no, I don’t think so either. Zangief is a typical Russian/Soviet stereotype guy, big wrestler who gives everything for his country, definitely not a gay. Not sure where did that come from.
As for SF4, hopefully Ultra SF4 will make some clear things clear.
Also, I’m supporting the opinion of doing the plot guide from scratch, but it will be very difficult to do for whoever is planning to do that. The previous plot guide contains a lot of useful info which you won’t want to miss. I’ll also be very glad to provide help together with other b64s.
I would stick with jap names too.
The SF2 ending is pure conjecture.
One of the theories is that T. Hawk, Cammy and Guile met Vega (they are the only ones who really need Vega to be defeated for their ending to happen) and their ending happened. Then, Gouki appeared and SGS Vega. From here, two things might have happened:
1 - Gouki SGS Vega and left the dictator lying on the ground. Vega survives and his post SF2 black and white picture happens (even Guile’s ending could have happened after this incident. Just take a look at his JAPANESE SSF2X ending… and remember that AASF3 in 1997 mentions that Shadoloo and Vega are “alive and well”).
2 - Gouki SGS Vega turning his body to flaming powder, only to have his remains found by Ryu (this was mentioned by a Gamest character flowchart when 3rd Strike was launched). Conjectures leads to believe that Vega’s soul entered Seth no 15 before going to vanilla SFIV prologue body.
If memory serves me right, those 4 trailers where just promotional material non canonic material.
What I don’t understand: Why is the way and the moment Akuma appeared up for debate anyway? In the game, the following happens: Just as the final battle is about to happen, Akuma jumps in, kills M. Bison and challenges Bison’s opponent.
If that’s what’s in the game, how is it possible than in canon, Akuma might have appeared after the tournament, killed Bison and then left? Or that Akuma killed Bison with no witnesses so that the dead body could be found later? None of that happens in the game, so how is it possible that this is the official canon? If the game really has top priority in the canon, shouldn’t Akuma’s appearance be like I said above?
I find it ironic that, in this case, a non-canon third party comic (the UDON “Street Fighter” comic) is closer to what actually happens in the game than the officially established canon. So, basically, the official canon contradicts the game itself. How is that even possible?
I’m still fairly sure at this point that Akuma jumping in against Bison never actually happened in SF2.
Yeah, that would be of course the easiest version: Akuma watched the tournament, but found nobody worthy to be challenged by him. So, he never interefered and the part of the game where you don’t encounter Akuma (because you weren’t good enoug) is canon.
This way, we also have no problems with the endings anymore.
That’s another problem by the way: Not only might the official canon contradict the game, but the game itself contradicts itself: Akuma jumps in, kills Bison, but after you defeat Akuma, you still see the regular ending sequence where the people talk with Bison as if they had defeated him.
The difference is in the japanese text. That’s why we can assume that Vega survived/can survive the SGS.
This fact is canon. No one fought Gouki in SF2.
From what I understand, SF2 was a known event to the whole world. We can assume that Gouki heard about Vega being the sponsor and final opponent and decided to test/attack him with his deadliest move…
About the game contradicting itself, just take a look at the Zero 3 conclusion storyline…
But it’s still weird:
In-game, Akuma jumps in, defeats M. Bison and fights Guile. After the battle, Guile grabs Bison who notes that Guile has become stronger.
Or if you play the game with Ryu: Bison still stands on place two of the winners’ podium. “O.k., I cannot fight anymore, so you win by default. But hey, I still go to the ceremony with you.”
Yeah, I know. I was just complaining that the canon and the game don’t match. If they intended Akuma to fight nobody after killing Bison, they shouldn’t have included him into the game. Or, from the other point of view: If there’s a secret opponent in the game who kills the final opponent and then challenges the other finalist, they should have made sure that this is reflected in the storyline as well.
Of course, you could decide that Akuma appearing didn’t canonically happen because it’s just one of two possible outcomes in the game. So, you could say that Akuma watched the fighters and looked out for someone who is worthy. If he had found one, he would have killed Bison and challenged his opponent. Since he didn’t find one, he didn’t jump in, i.e. the scene where you fight M. Bison in the end because you haven’t played well enough for Akuma to appear is canon.
But declaring: “Yes, Akuma did kill Bison like in the game, but no, he didn’t challenge anybody else, nor did the kill happen right when another fighter was about to face Bison”, that’s a huge contradiction.
What exactly are you referring to?
Gouki 's intro where he kills Vega was just a way to introduce him. Bear in mind that we’re talking about a character that wasn’t known to the public right away. People would have questioned “who’s the guy with the weird hair that flashes during the intro?” but they had no idea of who he was or what he was capable of… Then, you play really well, and when you’re about to fight the final boss… this dude appears and kills the final boss with one “single” move… and unless you’re REALLY good to deal with the surprise factor and this dude cheapness… he’ll mop the floor with you. Vega was meant to be the final boss, but since Turbo, his AI became predictable and somewhat easy… (just like in Zero 2 and Zero 3, he’s pretty difficult to defeat in Zero 1)… and then Gouki appears… the first thought is “let’s see if he is a real challenge…” so…
If you play as Gouki, just after he defeats Vega, he mocks him and go away… that’s not conflicting at all. But if you take a look a Cammy and Guile’s ending, you can’t help but ask “yeah, right. but what happened with Vega? Ran away? Died? Was put in jail?” that’s conflicting.
It was said that Vega sponsored SF2 to have his revenge against the one who destroyed the “Psycho Drive”. I don’t see that way. For me, it was to complete his plan from the Zero arc: lure Ryu and possess his body.
The Vega being defeated by Gouki was shown in other games besides SF2 (and they don’t contradict the storyline):
-Gouki’s Zero 1, 2 & 3 ending
-Adon’s Zero 3 ending
You want Zero 3 contradictions?
- Amost every character kills Vega;
- Vega dies after showing Rose who will be the world’s destructor, when in fact, he dies in the Psycho Drive base being held by Nash;
and the list goes on… Zero 3 expanded the storyline really good… but some of it’s content and conclusion… yuck! If memory serves me right, it was made by the same team that did the SF3 storyline.
The things you said are all correct, but it still doesn’t change the fact that the canon and the game don’t match. If they decide to let Akuma appear at the finale where he kills M. Bison, they should reflect this in the storyline. (Or declare that Akuma’s interference didn’t happen and that the regular final battle against Bison himself is the canon outcome.)
I mean, the UDON comics did it after all. There, it’s similar to the game: Ryu is about to face M. Bison, Akuma appears out of nowhere, fights M. Bison and kills him and then fights Ryu.
No, but you don’t want to claim that this is the version that the canon refers to, do you? The story that Akuma killed Bison with the Shun Goku Satsu is obviously based on the game scene that you get when you play very well and Akuma jumps in and kills Bison. It’s not based on the situation where the player himself selects Akuma via a cheat code and then plays through the game as if Akuma was a regular contestant and faces Bison in the finale, where you can’t even use the Shun Goku Satsu.
It might not be very good story telling, but it has nothing to do with it being conflicting. I.e. there are no contradictions in those scenes. It’s just that they don’t show Bison’s final fate on-screen.
Of course they don’t. (Especially since they didn’t happen in canon.) But I wasn’t referring to them. I was referring to the fact that they declare the pre-battle cutscene from “Super Street Fighter II Turbo” as canon, but yet, in canon it doesn’t play out like in the game.
Those are not contradictions, but what-if scenarios:
If Sakura had fought Bison one-on-one like this, then Dark Ryu would have killed Bison.
If Zangief had reached M. Bison, he would have destroyed the Psycho Drive with Honda’s help and killed Bison in the process.
The scenes don’t contradict each other because most of them never happened and are just what would have happened if that specific fighter had reached Bison. And you don’t see two of these contradicting scenes in one and the same play session.
That’s the case in most fighting games:
In “Mortal Kombat” canon, Liu Kang defeated Shang Tsung, Sub-Zero was killed and Scorpion remained a spectre.
Now, if you win the game with Sub-Zero, he retires and lives on the wealth that he earned by assassinating Shang Tsung.
If you win the game with Scorpion, he becomes a living being again.
Those are not contraditictions. If Sub-Zero had won the tournament, he would have retired. SInce he was killed by Scorpion and since Liu Kang was the final winner, neither Scorpion’s nor Sub-Zero’s ending came to pass. Those two what-if scenarios don’t have to line up with each other. They can contradict each other because only one of them is suposed to happen anyway.
But in “Super Street Fighter II Turbo”, the contradiciton isn’t based on different outcomes, but it appears in one and the same play session:
You play with Ryu and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison stands on the winners’ podium. What the…?
You play with Guile and reach the finale, then Bison is killed by Akuma, then Bison comments on Guile having become stronger. What the…?
They should have done a slightly different ending for when you fight Akuma:
Ryu: Still walking into the sunset, but no ceremony scene. And this time he thinks about the fact that Gouken’s death has been avenged and that Akuma was shown that not everybody is corruptable.
Guile: His wife and daughter still appear, but he doesn’t have to decide on what to do with Bison anymore and they go home just like that.
Cammy: She cannot ask Bison about her past anymore, so she has to head for Vega to get some information. Vega, feeling sorry for her for some reason, tells her a lie: That she was a spy trying to infiltrate Bison’s organization. This way, Cammy doesn’t have to live with the memory that she used to be a killer for Bison’s organization.
Dhalsim: Instead of having a picture of him, Bison and Sagat on the winners’ podium, Dhalsim has reached a higher level of consciousness by defeating Akuma and is now a great guru in India.
Somethign like that.
But the way it is now, most endings just don’t fit anymore when you unlock Akuma as an opponent. They only make sense in the context where you defeat Bison, but not where you defeat Akuma.
What’s actually the status of the plot canon guide? Is it still in development? In the moment, it seems like nobody works on it.
At the beginning, there were some active discussions until Vasili showed up and disallowed the use of his material. Then you waited for him to send you Tiamat’s final revision. And that’s basically it.
Some days ago someone posted a scan of a Japanese text that might be useful. And I think there was a post about Adon. But in the moment, there doesn’t seem to be any organized, systematic work.
So, what’s the current status? Is the project dead?
About Gouki using the Shun Goku Satsu on Dictator–I’ve always liked the idea of it being canon, mainly because it makes the story of the World Warrior tournament (which we don’t know much of to begin with) interesting. However, it does seem odd that it wasn’t referenced in any way in SF4, yet it was mentioned in both SNK Vs Capcom Chaos and Street Fighter X Tekken.
Alright, no answer for five days. So, I assume the project is dead. That’s it with the plot guide.
I hope that’s not the case. If true, it would be a pretty crappy end to a once-great resource.
Sorry but I’ve been transitioning to a new job which has taken up a lot of my time along with the fact that I just ran a big airsoft event last weekend which required prepwork.
That’s cool man, just glad to hear that it’s not dead.
Erm, in how far did YagamiFire’s post include the statement that the plot guide is not dead?
Think about it: The new plot guide was originally supposed to be a community project and yet, only one person answered my question at all. And that person said that he doesn’t have time because he’s busy with his job.
Now, don’t get me wrong: I’m not complaining about YagamiFire’s answer. Of course the things he does are much more important than some little internet fan project.
I just want to say: From a purely factual viewpoint, the plot guide is basically dead. From all the original contributors that were willing to work on it, all but one didn’t answer my post at all. And the one who answered said that he cannot work on it in the moment. By definition, this means nobody is working on it and there’s no indication that this will happen anytime soon. I.e.: Dead.
I dunno dude, I think you’re being a bit dramatic. People have different schedules (especially at this time of year) and can work on things behind the scenes. Plus there’ve been some obstacles with choosing/finding a desired version. Just because they didn’t answer your question, it doesn’t mean it’s dead. It’s more realistic to say hiatus…dead implies that everyone’s given up said “to hell with this” and sworn it off. We have no evidence that this is what’s come to pass. Just my thought on the matter.
Sure, if some person secretly writes a new plot guide in private to publish it later, there’s no way I can know this now. But I seriously doubt that a bunch of people from this forum are secretly working on a new plot guide together, especially since the new plot guide was supposed to be a community project after the big dictator was overthrown, so it would go against the new intentions if some small elite group worked on it secretly.
No, but the fact that there was never any real progress to begin with (after Vasili shut it down), that shows that the project is dead.
If you think that this is more realistic, go ahead. For me, the fact that the new plot guide basically stands at 0 % completion makes “dead” more realistic than “hiatus”. I mean, not even the basics are established. It’s literally 0 %.
Not necessarily. Dead can also mean: “We were eager to do this when the controversy with Vasili was still new and relevant. We even had the first ideas. Then Vasili came around, disallowed the use of his material and destroyed our progress. So, we waited for Tiamat’s final version. But in the meantime, everybody slowly lost interest in this project for the most part. And now, the total sum of the motivation of all the potential contributors isn’t enough anymore to get this started again.”
We don’t have any evidence that the work will continue either.
You said it best: People have different schedules. So, unless there’s some single person with enough knowledge and too much time on his hand, it’s unlikely that the plot guide will ever be rewritten.
Imagine, just for the sake of argument, that in two months, YagamiFire will decide to work on it again. Then the other members still have their own things to do. So, he might post something here, some introduction ideas. But since the reboot topic is even older then, even less people will still be interested and/or have the time for it. So, he maybe gets one or two replies in this forum. And then the whole thing will fall asleep again.
Do you really seriously believe that one day the whole community will say: “O.k., now we will do this” and then they’ll work on it again? This is the internet where new trends fade away very quickly. When they kicked Vasili’s ass, everyone was excited: “Wow, finally we shut up that pretentious guy. Now, the plot guide isn’t in the hands of a single person anymore. We finally have the chance to do it as a community project. Let’s go!” But then, Vasili striked again and nullified their progress. So, the work was stopped and they decided to wait for Tiamat’s answer. But in the meantime, the topic lost its novelty. Showing Vasili that they can do it better became less and less interesting. Time went on and the people continued living their lifes. And now, they have better stuff to do than restart that old project that was really just established because of the excitement of having it taken from Vasili’s hands and do it together. Today, nobody really cares anymore for what Vasili said and did. It’s old and done. And after all, we still have an elaborate plot guide. So, why should anybody bring enough motivation to actually recreate a document that already exists, months after the topic was new?
Let’s wait for another year. And then think of my words: Unless a single person took it into his hands by himself, the new plot guide will still be dead. A second plot guide as a community project? Won’t happen. If someone tries to revive it, it won’t go beyond the planning phase and it will quickly die down again before anything useful came out of it.
I will write a note in my calendar for December 6th, 2014. If I haven’t been disproven in the meantime, I will remind you of this post.
I really hope I will be wrong. Because I do want to see the new plot guide. But realistically, I fear that my statements from this post will remain true.
Well at this point, all we can do is wait, honestly, can’t do more than that or speculate. I’m a bit of an optimist from time to time, so I’ll leave it at that.