The super-detailed change list thread


#1

Okay. HD Remix has been out for a while. We need one of these.

If you’re wondering why, like “Yo Skankin’, there’s a complete changelist on Sirlin.net!” To that I say:

  1. It details what is changed, but not necessarily HOW it was changed, and

  2. It’s not exactly complete. There are definitely some changes not detailed in the Sirlin.net changelist. Some of them are more common knowledge (Chun-Li’s Air SBK has no minimum height requirement, several of Akuma’s normals/hadouken have different hitboxes from his original ST incarnation), while some of them are things I’ve never heard anyone mention before (Sagat’s vulnerable hitbox for his low tiger is different from either O.Sagat or N.Sagat).

I’m not suggesting we’ll learn anything groundbreaking from this thread. But, for people who are not specialists with certain characters (or people who spent lots and lots of time with ST), this can be a good resource for understanding all the subtle differences, how they’re implemented into their game, and even the possible implications of the changes.

So, if anyone wants to take a stab, go for it. I’ll make a post for Chun-Li soon.


#2

If you can, try to post the info over on the HDR wiki http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_II_Turbo_HD_Remix.

I think we should start filling in blanks… kinda depressing. I’m extra lazy, but if more people start adding crap I’d probably feel guilty so I would have to add on.


#3

Phew, it took me a while to compile these changes and state everything in the most concise manner I could come up with. But now, we have an example to work with for what I’m trying to accomplish.

Without further ado…

Chun-Li changes, and how! Any comment which is based on speculation will be italicized.

  1. Backflip (D/F+Mk)

A. Removed from the game.

Implications

  • It’s now easier to rush down with C.Mk, without fear of accidentally using a move with no particular purpose.
  1. Lightning Legs

A. Now easier to perform. In ST, you of course had the 8-16 frame window to input a kick button five times. Now, you always have 16 frames to do three inputs of a kick.

B. Priority is lowered; this is accomplished by moving her body hitbox much farther forward (to line up with the hitboxes for her head and feet), whereas before it didn’t move foward at all from her standing position (with her body hitbox way far back).

C. Damage is lowered; in ST, one hit of Lightning Legs would do slightly more than a Hard attack (it would do the equivalent of two of her far S.Lps, if you want to see for yourself). Now, one hit of Lightning Legs does damage about equal to a Hard attack.

D. Stun damage has been lowered, too; although, based on my unscientific testing, it must have been lowered very slightly. Three hits of Lightning Legs, followed by a throw or any Hard/Medium attack will dizzy in both games (and sometimes, just three hits of Lightning Legs).

Implications

  • The combo S.Hp XX Hk Lightning Legs is feasible from a standing position now. However, I don’t think this is practical; a lot of times, it’s too hard to get in and punish with that combo. It’s also unsafe against most any opponent with their Super, because Lightning Legs always stays out for two hits, no matter how little you mash. Thus, if you attempt the combo against someone with Super, they can punish it with a reversal super.

  • The lower priority makes it more plausible to hit Chun-Li out of Lightning Legs with certain moves. Since playing HDR, I’ve been hit out of Lightning Legs plenty of times by Psycho Crusher, Scissor Kicks, and even Vega’s Rolling Attack. It’s not common, but the fact is that it’s a much riskier defensive maneuver than it was previously.

  1. Ground Spinning Bird Kick

A. Now travels in a parabolic arc, rather than moving horizontally.

B. According to the Remix Frame Data, the startup invulnerability of the Lk SBK has been lowered. I’m a bit skeptical, I’d like to see that tested again because it’s still the same number of startup frames. It seems like a weird change to make.

C. The landing animation times have been significantly reduced; the invulnerability times have changed proportionately.

D. The number of hits per SBK has changed slightly; The LK version has five potential times it can hit during the move, up from four. The HK version has been reduced to six from its original nine.

E. There seems to be an error with the distances traveled; the MK version travels the shortest distance, while the LK version moves the median distance. However, the LK version still is the quickest version of the move, totaling at 79 frames compared to the MK version’s 84.

F. Ground SBK now has a juggle limit of five. It is perhaps the only move in the game that does.

Implications:

  • If the frame data is correct, it’s much easier to hit Chun out of the startup of LK SBK.

  • The Ground SBK is unsafe on hit and block. I’m not entirely sure if it was to begin with in ST, but that’s because it was a defensive maneuver in ST. As an offensive maneuver, it’s not effective at moving through most fireballs, and it’s extremely unsafe whether it connects with the opponent or not.

  • The Ground SBK is no longer effective as a defensive maneuver. In ST, you could use SBK if someone was doing a meaty crossup, and they’d whiff and have to block (or duck under) the first hit of the SBK. If the opponent had a fireball, they’d probably hit you anyways, but you would make it farther away, preventing them from trying a second crossup after knocking you down.

Now, it no longer hits a grounded opponent at the beginning of the attack, most characters can just land, walk up and hit you for free. If your opponent is keen on what you’re trying to do, he’ll probably peg you with a move that knocks down so he can just set up another crossup.

4. Air SBK

A. Now can be executed by charging Down, then Up+Kick.

B. No minimum height requirement needed to execute the move. Now, Chun can do ‘break dance’ SBKs.

C. Now travels in a horizontal arc, instead of a parabolic arc modified from her jump.

D. The Air SBK can not finish prematurely in the air. In ST, if the Air SBK was performed early in the jump, Chun would finish before she landed. This allowed her to supersede the landing animation and take any action immediately upon landing. Now Chun continues the SBK until she hits the ground, ensuring that she always has her landing animation.

E. The landing animation of the Air SBK now has invulnerable frames similar to the landing animation of her Ground SBK.

Implications:

  • The execution change, coupled with the lack of a height requirement causes this move to happen on accident frequently. It usually occurs when zoning an opponent with a crouching move, just before attempting to anti-air them with a jumping attack.

  • The new horizontal arc, coupled with the ‘always has a landing animation’ change, makes it much less effective against fireball corner traps. Consider this match of [media=youtube]qL1nqpbSjK0"[/media] (skip to 1:07). When Chun is cornered by someone with a fireball trap, it is extremely hard to make an escape without super meter. Chun’s only really safe option to build meter is the Air SBK, which allows her to dodge fireballs and immediately block as she lands. Now, doing this is virtually impossible.

  • Performing a headstomp followed by an Air SBK at the peak height of her jump can be used to avoid getting counter-attacked by Dragon-Punch type moves sometimes.

  1. Neckbreaker (D/F+HK)

A. This move no longer can cross up in any situation. This is accomplished by causing the move to travel a shorter distance forward.

B. Thie move can no longer hit low in any circumstance.I’m not sure how this is done, but my first guess would be that the hitbox was made to be taller.

Implications:

  • Well, the move is definitely a lot weaker now that it can’t cross up or hit low in any situation. Personally, though, I don’t think this harms the move’s effectiveness in the way that most people do. The move is worse because it’s now easier to reversal. When it traveled farther forward, it could cause many reversal attacks to whiff completely. Now, many things that could whiff before (Dee Jay Upkicks, Guile’s Flash Kick) can beat it cleanly.
  1. Super

A. The damage of each individual hit has been lowered.

B. The move now initiates a juggle hit on the third attack (out of six) instead of the last hit. This causes Upkicks to juggle for one hit only (although SBK can juggle for three hits still, because of the five hit limit on the move), and it causes the super itself to whiff at part against most of the cast:

  • No one is hit by all six hits of the super anymore except - ironically - Chun-Li. She can not be hit by Upkicks afterwards.

  • Everyone else only gets hit by 5/6 hits. The sixth hit whiffs, because the hitbox is too low.

  • Guile, Dhalsim, Sagat, and Fei-Long sometimes only take 4/6 hits; In addition to the sixty hit which whiffs everyone but Chun, the third hit whiffs due to the hitbox being far out from Chun’s body, combined with these four characters having narrow vulnerable hitboxes. Because of this, one would think that they could juggle these characters for two hits of Upkicks, but I’ve never been able to.

C. Because the opponent is juggled earlier, they fly farther away, making it much harder to juggle the Upkicks afterwards. In particular, Blanka is extremely hard to hit with Upkicks afterwards.

Implications:

  • The damage nerf obviously hurts Chun; but, as a move which threatens and controls space, nothing is worse about it.

  • The real problem here is that the Super does inconsistent damage. Chun is the only person who gets hit by the entire Super, and the damage dealt to her is roughly equal to the 5+1 hits that the rest of the cast takes. However, the difficulty in landing Upkicks on some characters, combined with the fact that certain characters might only get hit by four hits, can cause this Super to do extremely low amounts of damage - much lower than it probably should.


#4

This is yet another thread of veiled complaining about changes isn’t it.


#5

Not slightly. For one, I frequently argue that Chun is a lot better than most people think (see the consensus matchup chart), and for two, I’ve described exactly what my purpose for making this thread is in my original post. The opinions I wrote in the ‘implications’ section are my honest opinions on how her gameplay is affected by the changes; I have no intention of trolling David Sirlin, and I find it obnoxious that I even have to say this.

In any case, if you don’t believe me and don’t want to contribute, you can protest by not posting. Otherwise, you’re a pretty good player, so why not help? The current change list doesn’t say everything that was changed, and it doesn’t always explain how. I want to know the ‘hows’, and for every character.


#6

Your honest opinions of how her gamplay is affected by changes could be considered complaining about changes.
Especially considering 90% of your “implications” talk about how much worse the move is now.
I have no idea how you constitute complaining about changes as being related to trolling Sirlin though.

Actually it does.

And the “hows” you can find if click the little portraits on this page:

http://www.sirlin.net/sf

I guess changing the number of hits chun’s super does and changing the raw damage of it are in a way separate things but it’s the same end result.


#7

Who cares, i’m for a thread that gets discussion going over a semi lifeless forum that the HDR forums are slowly becoming.


#8

Balrog Detailed Change List:

  1. Jab Headbutt no longer safe on block.

Implications:

-In most cases in ST, the Jab Headbutt was safe on block. Now in HDR, it is reaaaaly unsafe on block (allowing for throws, sweeps, etc). Also, from extensive playing time (can’t really verify without comparing frame data) I’ve deduced that the actual recovery of the move is also worse, which really hurts Rog when playing against fireball throwers (standard tactic of using jab headbutt to go through fireballs is easier to counter due to the extra recovery frames).

  1. Super does less damage.

Implications: Self-explanatory. Reduced from 60% to around 40-45% (Sirlin claims 50% which may be true if you hit someone with 100% life). The bug where Rogs super will sometimes slow down during the 2nd or 3rd hit still exists in HDR, allowing for reversals mid super regardless of whether the opponent is being hit or blocking.

  1. Reduced super meter building for headbutts and turn around punch (TAP).

Implications: Self-Explanatory. Slightly harder for Rog to build meter, but doesn’t really change too much (i.e. you’re getting full meter every round).

  1. New way to charge TAP.

Implications:

The actual change was to only require holding down 2 kicks and/or 2 punches for TAP charging. You can also do it the old way by holding down all 3. This change does take away a rarely used option for interrupting a kick TAP charge for a negative edge rush uppercut. Quite honestly, I find the ability to use my thumb and pinky for holding down kick TAP well worth the trade off. Others do not.

  1. Throw range reduced.

Implications: Rog’s throw range was slightly reduced. The extent is unknown, but since his MP throw had more range than his HP throw, I would presume it to be safe to say the MP throw has the same shorter range as the HP throw now.


#9

Honda Detailed Change List:

  1. Honda “Trip-Guard”:

Implications: Essentially Sirlin gave Honda a slightly better hitbox for Honda’s jumping LK buttsmash. What this was supposed to accomplish was allowing Honda to hit or trade with Shoto sweeps when jumping over fireballs. Shotos can still hit Honda’s jumping LK clean with a sweep if they do it near the tip where Honda lands. In theory this is nice, but it doesn’t help Honda at all. Most shotos did that max range sweep anyway in ST, so no one is fooled here. Ironically, this new hitbox on the jumping LK does manage to hit Deejay and Dhalsim’s slide very very well, which is actually pretty nice (especially for Deejay, since that match is one of Hondas’ worst).

  1. Better “Floating Fierce”.

Implications: Self-Explanatory. The Floating HP Honda had in ST is slightly more steer-able left or right. Fairly helpful against zoners.

  1. Jab headbutt goes through fireballs.

Implications: The jab headbutt (when fully extended, i.e. can’t burn through fireballs on startup) can go through one fireball and still hit an opponent. In theory this is nice, but in practice it rarely can be set up. Most likely useful against Sagat since his arms extend his vulnerable hitbox when throwing tiger shots. Jab headbutt also travels slightly less compared to ST.

  1. Hundred Hand Slap Changes

Implications: The HHS now takes less button taps to activate compared to ST. Also the strength and “priority” of the move has been decreased (hands move slightly slower and have less red hitbox area). Does less dizzy. This is an interesting tradeoff. For me, being able to use MP/HP HHS at will more than makes up for the downgrade of strength/priority. For others with quick fingers that didn’t have much issue with it probably didn’t care for the change. Still Honda’s most important asset.

  1. Ochio Command Throw Changes:

Implications: The Ochio throw now jumps back after hit, disallowing the infamous “Ochio Loop”. Dizzy is also reduced. On the plus side, where you land you are in a perfect position to counter fireballs and SRKs with a MP Sumo Smash if your opponent does them on wakeup.

  1. Super Change:

Implications: Honda’s super loses its storing ability (do the super motion, hold forward at the end of the motion, press punch while walking forward at any time), but gains an actually useful super. The super can still be used to go through fireballs (but, like the jab headbutt, cannot go through fireballs on wakeup). Will hit twice from out of sweep range for around 25-30% damage and will hit 3 times up close or anti-air for around 60%. If the super is safe-jumped, honda’s second hit will go through the blocking opponent leaving him vulnerable. Honda’s super is also still unsafe if blocked (after the first hit and after both hits). It is unknown if ether of these are unintended bugs or were placed purposely. Probably one of Honda’s biggest buffs, as it can be used as one of the best anti-airs in the game or as a way to get in on zoners.


#10

Fei Long Detailed Change List:

  1. Jab Flamkick has shitty recovery

Implications:

-In ST it had the same recovery as Ken’s jab srk. Now it has closer recovery to his mk flamekick which is kind of stupid. It means he can’t build meter as efficiently. It also tends to be more unsafe against characters sitting on charge, and characters with fast moves.

  1. Super is fast and goes farther.

Implications:

Much better than his ST super. It is a good anti fireball tool from near half screen range, and its more consistent on block.

  1. Reduced super meter building

Implications: He builds meter at a slower rate, making his super less valuable if he can’t get offense started so he can build it.

  1. LK CW has more startup and more recovery, but more invinicibility

Implications:

Good for going thru fireballs and sometimes escaping crossups. Can’t combo after it.

  1. MK CW and HK CW have more recovery.

Implications:

Not only do they not go thru fireballs but, the worse recovery prevents comboing. This makes their use very limited.

  1. Improved rekkas.

Implications:

It appears the stun on some rekkas was improved so they combo more consistently, when mixed together. They go farther and they are supposed to be easier on input. Simply put they are better all around. (Although I still feel the blue hitbox on the bottom of them should stop at the foot instead of extending past.)

  1. MK/HK Flamekick and All CWs now juggle

Implications: Good for damage and catching jumpers except for 8.

  1. CW has worse hitboxes.

Implications: CW isn’t that great air to air, which hurts the whole point of giving it juggle properties in the first place. Often juggles will be started on neutral or jump backs in the corner, assuming they don’t stick out an attack that flat out beats it.

  1. CW motion now QCF

Implications: Easier motion, which apparently justified shitting on the MK and HK versions of the move.

Yeah I inserted some whining in some places, but some things are kind of stupid. If fei long is getting zoned, his flamekick nerf and super meter nerf, make it much harder to build super, which is extremely good for anti zoning. Also, he didn’t get that much help for the characters that simply outstrip him, by defense(honda) or zoning(claw).


#11

Very nice thread Skankin Garbage.

I agree, I definitely want to see all SBKs captured again. In practice, it doesn’t feel like there is any difference in startup invincibility, and a difference of 4 frames can be easily noticed by a practiced player.

Wow, I never knew that. I’mma test that as soon as I get home.

Definitely agreed with this. I haven’t played Classic ST in a long time, but 2 days ago I got into a Classic game on ranked (not my choice, but I was doing quick match, which gives you any available match, Classic or Remixed). Anyways, my opponent was Chun Li and I was Ryu, and I had her knocked down and almost KO’d, so I did a meaty Fierce Shoryuken which should have KO’d her. Instead, my opponent does a reversal SBK on wakeup, and the Fierce Shoryuken completely whiffed!! I was friggin’ stunned! Cuz I’ve never seen that happen in ST before. If I had done a Jab Shoryuken instead, I’d have been hit by the SBK on the way down.

My point is, that would never happen in HDR, but I think it has more to do with the SBK’s new arc rather than any changes to invincibility. The new arc goes vertically, which raises her vulnerable hitboxes higher into ther air and she would be hit by a Shoryuken easier. But I have also seen the Remix SBK escape meaty fireballs and Chicken Wings sometimes, very inconsistently tho. Whenever I pick Chun Li and try to escape meaty fireballs or attacks using a reversal SBK, I get stuffed. = L

I’m pretty sure the hitboxes were not changed at all. I think the reason it doesn’t hit low anymore is cuz in ST, it goes so far forward that maybe the offensive hitbox crossed up briefly…? So maybe the defender thought that he was blocking low, but got hit anyway cuz it crossed up at the last second or something? IDK for sure, but is it a confirmed thing that hitting low is possible in ST? I mean, is there any empirical evidence or a youtube vid explaining it or something? Cuz it happens very rarely, so I’m not sure if it’s a consistent thing or not. ST Knee Drop definitely needs to be studied more IMO.

This is the change I disagree with the most, this and stored Oichio being left in. Only the damage should have been nerfed and not the juggling properties of the Super. If it did 80% in ST (with Upkicks), then that should have been nerfed to 50% in HDR (still with Upkicks). Now, you’re lucky to get 40% with Upkicks. Really friggin sucks, but whatever, she’s still a strong character but it would have been nice if her Super was not nerfed so much.

Sometimes calling people out for complaining will stifle honest discussion about the game. We should be able to discuss everything about the game, the good with the bad, but in a responsible, intelligent manner (ie without crying about changes). Skankin Garbage is definitely an intelligent poster and I think this thread is an honest discussion about the game. Nothing wrong with that IMO. = J


#12

Anyways. Like I said. If you think I’m just whining, feel free to not post. The fact of the matter is that there are virtually no positive changes for Chun. That’s the truth, and I’m merely explaining it. I never once said in my post “Man, why is it like this? Especially when __________ can do ________?”

Wow, so basically you’re coming in and talking crap about my thread but you didn’t even read the first post? Here, try reading it:

Yes, so we know plenty of important things by looking at Sirlin’s changelist, but we don’t know the nitty gritty. There’s a ton of things I mention that are not mentioned in Sirlin’s articles:

  1. It doesn’t say HOW the priority of Lightning Legs were lowered. Was it the active hitboxes or the vulnerable hit boxes that were changed? Or both? Well, now you can read my post and see.

  2. The only place I know which documents Ground SBK having a 5 hit juggle limit is a frickin’ combo video. It’s certainly not in the Sirlin.net article.

  3. The Sirlin article doesn’t explain that the Ground SBKs are goofed up, and that the Lk version goes farther than the Mk version, even though the Lk version recovers faster than the Mk version. That would certainly be nice to know.

  4. While it may be obvious to people who play Chun that her Air SBK always has a landing animation, this is a surprisingly important change to her gameplay and it isn’t documented in the changelist or Sirlin’s article.

  5. Likewise, no mention of how the Air SBK has invulnerable landing frames, even though it never did in ST.

  6. No mention of the fact that Neckbreaker can’t hit low anymore.

  7. Yes, we know that “Super damage was nerfed” and “Can only juggle one hit of Upkicks afterward.” But did you honestly know why before that? Did you honestly know that the Super started juggling in the middle and not at the end? Did you honestly know that the entire cast except Chun-Li does not get hit by the entire super, and THAT’S the main why the damage was nerfed?

And if you’re thinking “I honestly don’t care”, then you’re exactly the kind of person who I wish would not come in here and argue with me. If you don’t understand the purpose of my thread after reading this, please go away. I just showed you a bunch of things that you can not find in Sirlin’s article about Chun-Li - both things that explain HOW he made changes, as well as changes that are not documented.


#13

I am thinking about removing the “implications” section from my list entirely. Mostly because, looking at other people writing the changes, they now think that the “implications” is the most important part, when it was supposed to be the changes. I spent two hours on the change section and like ten minutes on the implications, not the other way around.

So, for the people trying to contribute (and the people who’ve contributed already), I know that there are “Hundred Hand Slap Changes” and “CW has shittier hitboxes” but like, HOW? Is it the red hitboxes that are smaller? The blue hitboxes that are bigger? Do you have any comparisons for how much damage a hit of HHS does now compared to ST? THAT is what I want to know. Everyone knows what’s changed; not everyone knows how.

If that keeps up, I’ll probably delete the “implications” from my list, so as to make an example.


#14

If you look at the hitboxes and frame data, MK SBK could still avoid Ryu’s SRKs because it has so many invincibility frames. I actually use MK SBK to avoid Flame Kicks from Fei after a Chicken Wing and hit him a couple times, to boot. You have to do it just after they start theirs, though, or you’ll get hit instead.


#15

Why even have the implications section to begin with ?

Without it there would be no question about what the intent of the thread is.


#16

Because, aside from the changes themselves, someone who doesn’t play a character might not understand the affects the changes have on their gameplay. It’s also worth discussing the implications of changes not mentioned. For example, the ‘always has a landing animation’ change on Chun’s Air SBK is, imo, her worst nerf of all, and it’s not even mentioned in the official changelist. If I don’t explain why is matters, someone who doesn’t play Chun will be like “yeah so she always has a landing animation, who cares?” Now, people can read why it’s important.


#17

If you’re talking about ST SBK, all 3 have the same amount of invincibility as per YBH. However, I’ve never seen an SBK evade a Fierce Shoryuken. I’ve seen an SBK avoid fireballs, crossups even Head Stomps, but never a rising DP. And I even did the SRK really late so that it was still in its invincible frames so that there would be no chance of a whiff due to doing it too early and having the offensive hitbox too high in the air. But whatever, I was just pointing out that I’ve never seen that before. ST SBK is really good yo. = J

Because some changes have implications beyond what the designers originally intended. Fake Hadoken is a prime example. I’m sure that Sirlin did not intend for it to shave recovery frames off Ryu’s sweep. If a Ryu’s sweep is ever blocked, and the Ryu player does not want to cancel it into a Hadoken or Tatsu, there is never any reason to just do it by itself. Doing a Fake Hadoken helps Ryu recover faster from a sweep.

Claw for example, one of the implications of his new Back Flip shortcut (P+K) is that accidental Back Flips come out when doing his cr Strong, cr Forward combo (for some people, not all). I’m sure the designers did not intend this, and personally, as an ex-pad player myself, I don’t think pad players needed this shortcut. The only shortcuts that actually benefit pad players IMO is PP or KK, even if they are only playing on a default XBOX or PS3 pad.

But whatever, what’s done is done, no point in whining about changes or hating on the game cuz of changes. I think this thread is simply seeking to inform other players of possible situations that they weren’t aware of, and I’m all for that.


#18

I’m referring to the HDR SBK. By frame 14 of the fierce SRK, you are too high to hit Chun’s initial hit box. So you would have to do your SRK 3 frames after she starts hers.


#19

Zangief’s Changes

  1. Kick lariat has 22 frames of lower body invulnerability making it much better for footsies and as a reversal. Basically for the first 22 frames of the attack, only his head is hittable. It also now makes a new sound to let the opponent know which lariat you did. Extra optional input of lp+lk also added for pad players.

  2. Jab green hand has 4 frames less recovery, making it safer on hit/block and more useful in getting through fireballs. The new qcf motion is also much better than the old backwards qcf motion (walk forward cr. punch being green hands). Strong and fierce green hands are unchanged even though Sirlin’s changelist implies otherwise.

  3. Crouching fierce’s hitbox size increased vertically by a pixel to let it beat Vega’s walldives.

  4. Diagonal jumping strong’s hitbox size now matches up with his arm. The extra reach is helpful for air to air combat since the move has great priority.

  5. Punch lariat’s initial hitbox now extends all the way to the ground. Now it can trade with low forwards and sweeps when timed correctly. A few obscure combos are possible involving punch lariat that the lower hitbox makes possible (xup splash, cr. mk xx punch lariat on Bison). New optional inputs of mp+mk and hp+hk added for pad players.

  6. Running bear grab now runs faster and as a result goes farther. The new speed and distance they travel can catch turtles offguard (lol running under air fireballs is too good vs akuma scrubs). Old motion no longer works and is replaced by hcf/b+k. The new motion is harder to combo from cr. mk but easier to do.

  7. Hop is now only done by f+hp instead of f/b+mp/hp and revamped. The refined input scheme means you can use standing mp while moving and that missed mp throws aren’t hops anymore. It now has 11 startup frames, 10 active frames, and 11 recovery frames (5 from landing). The old fierce hop had 15 startup frames, 10 active frames, and 18 recovery frames (strong version had 8 active frames and 17 recovery frames). It also goes higher and farther than it used to which opens up new tricks like hop to spd and using hop to go over downed opponents. It even combos at certain distances into pretty much whatever you want.

  8. Super motion is now hcf/b x2, f/b+punch instead of the old 720+punch motion. The super will still come out if you replace the last input of f/b with any upwards direction. Walking super is much easier to do. Old motion no longer works, but some ways of inputting 720’s overlap with the new inputs anyway.

  9. New optional input of hcf/b +f/b added for spd. New motion is slower than the old motion but easier for new players who can’t spd without jumping. Old spd motion is also more lenient (hcf,uf+punch and db,d,df,f,uf+punch both register as spd’s)


#20

^^It would be nice if there was something new in your post. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good post and thanks for taking the time to do it, but the point of this thread is to not just tell us about the Remixed changes. The point of this thread IMO is to tell us about the good or bad implications in actual matches or to inform people of something new that they might not have been aware of.

I verified that Chun Li’s SBK does indeed juggle for a total of 5 hits. Don’t get me wrong Skankin, it’s not like I didn’t believe you, but it’s just that I’m anal for verifing things myself. I went into training mode, picked Chun Li and the Zangief dummy, set the dummy to jump and infinite meter, pushed the dummy to about a quarter distance from the corner, and did 2 Short SBKs:

-Chun Li can actually get max 4 hits off just 1 SBK, no other single attack in the game juggles for 4 hits apart from Supers
-I tried adding a Super after the 2 SBKs to see if the juggle limit could be expanded, but by the time Chun Li recovers from the 2nd SBK, the dummy is too close to the ground for the Super to catch it
-Upkicks whiff after a 4-hit SBK, meaning only a Super or another SBK can juggle after an SBK, Upkicks also whiff after a 3-hit SBK but not after a 2-hit SBK, so the 3-hit juggle universal limit still does apply to Upkicks
-I tried to do Upkicks followed by 2 SBKs, but the spacing/range is prohibitive for my limited testing, I’m not sure if SBKs will continue to juggle for a 5-hit limit after an Upkick, probably not since the reverse is not true, probably the same for SBKs after a Super

This is really huge. This means that Chun Li has a new record for the juggle limit in the game (surpassing Fei’s 4-hit limit). Of course most characters can juggle for more than 3 hits, but only using a Super (example: Ryu’s juggle Strong for 3, Super for 2), but no character in the game can juggle for more than 3 hits without Super, except for Fei (Chicken Wing, Flame Kick) and Chun Li (SBK x 2).

It’s weird why this is part of the game, especially considering it was not a part of Sirlin’s balance changes for Chun Li, or at least, it wasn’t documented in his balance articles. And on top of that, it’s not 3 hits for the 1st SBK and 2 hits for the 2nd SBK (altho that could happen), but it’s actually 4 hits for just one SBK. That’s just weird, and that tells me that Chun Li was not playtested very thoroughly. I’m not a game designer or even a programmer, but I think that this is a bug associated with the changes to her new SBK. I’m guessing that when her new SBK was coded to juggle, the 3 hit limit was not implemented for the new SBK, especially considering that Upkicks will not juggle after 3 hits of the SBK, but will after 2 hits, whereas the SBK will continue to juggle. If somebody could test the Super after 2 SBKs or get 3 SBKs to juggle, I’d be very interested in finding out what happens.

This is all just **speculation **on my part and by no means is any of this fact, and I apologize if I’m stepping on any toes, but things like this are important to me.

Also, Chun Li’s Knee Drop’s offensive hitbox was not changed from ST:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7118/chunlikneedrop.jpg

The red hitbox does actually seem a little bigger in the pic, but I think it’s just the new art causing an illusion. The blue hitbox does seem different tho. Is it just me, or does her upper arm have an extra vulnerable area in the Remix pic? If so, that means Chun has more vulnerability on her Remix Knee Drop. I could be wrong tho, especially considering the YBH pic is so blurry. But the important thing is, the offensive hitbox is still the same size IMO.