In visual standpoint is not just clothes, color and body physique that symbolize the character but also the most important is the facial structure which many modern day artist intentionally disregard even they knew they can keep the face because they just want to imprint their own preference.
I remember 90s editorial caricature in tabloids which everyone is required to be drawn in a deformed proportion in black and white that the character is required to change clothes with the face as the strong significance to identity the character every issues.
I like artist that can draw Ryu art in casual clothes not in red and white colors, without also the headband, but still looks like Ryu.
Actually Arcsys guys have the Dirty Berret team which are part of DS dev. I have no problem future SF becoming cellshaded, My point is it’s not that easy with the current Capcom. Current Capcom is not the Capcom we used to know.
Actually it’s not that easy as it seems, like I said Namco Bandai instead did a partnership in DBFZ case rather than develop of their own. It’s a custom engine which based on GDC was made for a long time it was even scrapped before but restored again for XRD.
They may explain it how it works but it doesn’t exactly explain how it was made.
Companies had strick policies regarding asset in those thing like source code or logic. They cmay openly talk in public about the process in a non-technical jargon but not in how the were construct in a more technical detail. There are complication looking in the structure when implementing those.
SF couldnt exist using the same technique used by ASW. Alternate costumes are a big part of modern SF.
Maybe a smaller scale game like a prequel with young Gouken and pre Satsui Gouki (Street Fighter Legends) could get away with it.
How I wish Capcom can make a consistent Ryu that can wear casual clothes in alt but still Ryu. Very Ryu in facial structure rather than just color and clothing. Something like Goku and Superman(80s-90s) that has more defined facial features that standout.
Yes, the original intention was to use Udon to create a few key frames for various characters, and then outsource the bulk of the work to an overseas studio.
But here again is where Udon’s lack of experience and lack of consistency reared its ugly head. The work Udon created was useless for that purpose. I believe it was David Sirlin that tried to spin it as Udon’s work was simply too highly detailed for the overseas studio to handle. But that was pure PR spin. A lot of the art had already been released publicly, and it was clearly just too inconsistent to be usable as guides. How do you draw Ken when one frame has granted him a brand new muscle group between his bicep and tricep? How do you draw Guile’s camo pattern when you have two guide images that have different patterns?
I’m not even referring to adding additional detail between existing SF2 sprites. I mean that Udon didn’t even bother to be consistent between the images that they created. Even SF2’s limited sprites flow into each other. If your task is to redraw the existing sprites, then you need to keep that in mind throughout the process. But Udon ignored that flow; Udon created frames as if they were stand-alone art.
Which, again, is why the animation was so much worse in the beta. Ryu’s new sprites had been drawn without concern for how they’d animate. After the animation was met with heavy ridicule, they went back and adjusted the art work so that it flowed better. But again that should have been in their minds from the very beginning of the project, even before the outsourcing fell through, not something they only learned after holding a beta test.
And really, that Ryu sprite honestly isn’t that impressive. It is something of a waste of the resolution. I don’t know how others feel, but it really stands out to me that the head was drawn by a different (better) artist and simply pasted (or lightboxed) onto the sprite with newly animated hair. Ryu’s right hand also seems to be in a really uncomfortable position; it isn’t rotated that far in the original SF2 sprites.
The GDC talk gave enough information to recreate the effect, though you’d either have to use an engine that supported bone scaling or add that yourself. If you’ve already got bone scaling support, it doesn’t seem terrible difficult to code for the rest. Other interviews covered other aspects, such as how stages were designed.
That, however, is only part of the equation. The other part is the art and experience of creating the actual characters. Even if ASW flat out gave you all of their tools, you’d still be starting from scratch when it came to actually creating content. You’d have to learn to create concept art around the strengths and weaknesses of the system. You’d have to learn to create meshes designed to work with how the UV/texturing system works. You’d have to learn how to tweak the lighting normals to produce your desired results. Etc. None of that is impossible, but it is going to take time, and time is money.
In the long run, it is simply easier to hire ASW to do it all themselves. Which is what Namco Bandai did. Why spend all that time and money learning to do what someone else with more experience already does better, faster, and cheaper than you? Particularly when it is a process that is built around the idea of being used in a 1v1 2D fighting game, and likely won’t translate as well (if at all) to other genres.
As for Capcom, they outsourced SFV’s model work. Either Capcom did so to save money or save time/work, if not both. Those two things are pretty much the opposite of what you’d need to copy ASW’s process.
Your missing my point here, I was being fair with Udon yes the change of body physique can make animation inconsistent if they were not done exact. So they would just trace it?
It’s not like you think…
It’s not like this : different well know studio = good animation HD remix.
You can point out every mistake in the works of Udon but it doesn’t mean having another studio would make it HD remix better.
So Udon should just trace? Would that be the same solution a different known studio would do?
You can say a different studio can make it more fluid in movement… those were vague comments which is simply known as animation principle.
This is the mistake… thinking that simply enlarging those exact SF2 sprite with outdated animation techniques is the solution and expecting the exact output as it was.
The thing is changing body phyqiue/volumes is the only thing Udon can do and even without touching it or simply giving it to a better studio that would simply trace the sprite frame by frame exactly. It would still be awful without the modern day animation techniques applied. which I said the problem and it cannot be resolve even with the different studio with the same restriction and limitation.
Man I wasn’t saying it was impressive, what I am saying it is better looking and in-motion that what we got in the final result.
You can criticize it for it’s flaws that are undeniable then fantasize and imagine a more fluid movement HD Remix to a different studio but in reality It is impossible in the way you perceive and suggest things because of the engine and restriction imposed in their creativity.
Because the Udon guys need to workaround the limitation of the outdated fighting game engine they used. And also count in the need to keep the technicality of SF2 game from pro that requires a distinct and particular frames as reference to cancel.
Animation Principles important it made everything beautiful in motion even with restriction to frame counts. Like why SF3 is so good in motion and why even a what if HD remix is an exact trace of the original will still look bad in motion. Have you watched SkullGirls GDC?
Going back to the original topic about you question SFV about proportion changes in animation, those techniques are Animation Principles which are essential in method in animating to make if look fluid even with limited frames.
So every time your talking about fluidity and smoothness in a limited frame count that’s Animation Principles. Animation Principles distort and deformed body parts out of proportion and realistic manner to give an illusion of impact.
Because without Animation Principles applied in animation it would require more frames than usual to make it look fluid and the collision strength would be less emphasized.
SF3 tops every fighting game if were talking about Animation Principles, while SFV tops every fighting games if were talking about intuitive animation.
As if your talking in a very comfortable way of a perspective, as if those were usual thing that has been done by many in the past when it isn’t.
So why would BAMCO which had more money and workforce than Capcom or ARCSYS, Didn’t do it like as easy as you think it is?
Why would BAMCO hesitate? they can benefit from it like doing a lot of fighters for there many shonen jump games, like Naruto, Jojo, HNK, Bleach and etc.
Like I said in the previous comment think of this, BAMCO would need to make partnership with ARCSYS, even they probably have more man power and budget than ARCSYS,
because it’s not as simple like this: Budget + Time = Replicate XRD
AN innovation is not simply Money = Replicate work.
What money can do is pay people to give you the instruction how it works and how it is done, sell you rights of the engine or hire them to create to imagine work you desire with their style.
It’s not that easy that money = replicate others. Capcom can do what Namco did with DBFZ but they cannot as of now create their own engine similar to what ARCSYS had even with the budget.
Even within the boundaries of the existing sprites they could have done a much better work keeping the new sprite consistent between frames of animation. Proportions, details and light sources were all over the place in SSFIIXHDR.
Zangief was probably the worst. For example, check this animation and how the light source changes drastically from one frame to the next, especially noticeable on his legs, while the original is consistent. Position of the scars is also much more jumpy in the remake and some even disappear.
Yeah, it might be a SFIV situation when there’s no story mode and we have to link individual stories in order to get the picture of what happened (in this case, before SFVI). It could also be a nice opportunity to retcon some of the SFIII events.
If we’re indeed getting 2nd char stories, I’ll be fine with no 2nd cinematic story, but only if we’re close to the end of the game’s lifecycle.
This may be me mis-remembering, but I want to recall reading that their workflow process involved avoiding looking at the sprite. That they worked from silhouettes.
You keep missing my points. The animation was inconsistent for all the reasons I listed beyond the change in body physique. The Zangief sprites mikros posted are an example. The shading goes all over the place, even reversing itself between frames. Zangief’s scars move around. Zangief’s chest hair expands and contracts randomly.
That is on top of the other issues. Again, the Ryu sprite has Ryu’s right hand in the wrong position. In one of the first T.Hawk images posted, because they didn’t understand T.Hawk’s hand positioning, they drew his foreground hand to be physically much smaller than his background hand. (I also want to recall T.Hawk’s thumbs were reversed at one point in the WIP art.) How is Sagat’s animation supposed to flow right when his leg changes length not even because of intentional body physique changes, but because the artist didn’t look close enough at the original sprite to even tell what kind of kick it was?
As for the copy-pasted Revival heads that they used, they were sometimes used to replace heads that were looking a different way and viewed at a different angle. They even went as far as to redraw the angle that T.Hawk’s body was being viewed from in order to try to get it to match the Revival head they were using.
As I’ve said, the Udon work is so badly suited for the task that you can’t even begin to use it to judge whether the task itself is impossible.
Can you create a convincing art forgery with materials bought at a local craft shop? Perhaps yes and perhaps no. But you don’t say “No, and here is the proof” while holding up a copy of the Mona Lisa that you had a random person on the street create.
Even random people on the internet created “better” versions of Udon’s HD Remix art. Fixing anatomy mistakes. Doing better jobs of bulking up physique. And even producing bits that animated better.
My only point is the importance of Animation Principle in SFV, which involves the exaggeration and morphing of body parts to convey a better visual in motion.
I agree with everyone that HD remix was that bad in terms of animation and even some art, I don’t even said it looks good and I used it as an example that the process of modern day animation which make it bad in motion not just the change of body volumes like you mention and I agree with that also.
Your critique to HD remix animation is valid too, I don’t disagree with it, Yet. I believe it is the lack of Animation Principle in the process is a major factor that it looks so bad along with the technical limitations. I believe it is important specially in modern day animation that is into high resolution.
So guys, is anybody else kind of disappointed Capcom didn’t do a special box set/limited edition for the series’ 30th anniversary?
It’s weird - for the 15th anniversary, they just released a collection with Alpha, SF2 and SF3 on the PS2 and called it a day (although I think that release was pretty near packaging, even if PS2 was garbage for fighting games)
then for the 20th anniversary, they released some merch like an artbook, no collection/games as a celebration
Then for the 25th anniversary, they went ALL FUCKING IN with this amazing thing. It had all the games, original soundtracks and fan remixes, an artbook, all kinds of shit, not to mention the tournament they held with several different games and the branded car. Real effort was put in here
Now, for the 30th anniversary they just outsourced some arcade ROMs to Digital Eclipse with kind of pisspoor online and lacking features, although the collection itself is neat and I’m glad I bought it just recently
Anybody else wishes Capcom also went out like for the 25th anniversary? They could’ve done so much more with it too - in addition to the 12 games in SF30AC, why not also add Ultra since it’s already on PS4, SFVAE with the Season 3 pass, package in additional DLCs like costumes and stages, add more soundtrack discs, supplement the artbook for SFV, etc?
Maybe they just like the non-even years more and will do an ultimate box for the 35th anniversary