The System Mechanics Thread


#921

It has uses but I think how important it is is overstated. And you have to realize you are giving up other opportunities if you commit to it. Remember all you get is throw if they do nothing. You only get super if they wakeup with crouch tech or mashing low buttons.


#922

well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
^
this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games


#923

for that one, think makoto or charge characters


#924

yeah I was thinking of something more specific than what was actually written I guess. I read SGGK but thought “SGGK w/low parry as an oki attack.” obviously that wasn’t said outright so my mistake.

but yeah I still think SGGK is this weird tidbit of game knowledge that has found it’s way to a lot of people but they don’t know how it works or what beats it. like the original post asked “should I use it after I throw someone?” and I think the answer is “maybe, but there’s probably better stuff to do.”


#925

Where the hell have you been!? Are you still on XBL?


#926

SGGK is sick. You force a 50/50 in a situation where people usually dont do anything apart from blocking or teching throws.


#927

I retired years ago; recently came back. I’m interested in getting back on the 3S horse, but I’m wary about playing online in a game with parries.


#928

How do you get Poison to come on screen when doing Hugo’s taunt in Online Edition? Obviously start just pauses the game.


#929

Up + taunt


#930

Okay, this post is about 3s juggling. So I wrote some stuff that should be mostly correct based on what I’ve messed with and read on the reference site (here: http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html). Hopefully it makes sense.
The juggling mechanics as they’re described are not that complex, but explaining it concisely might be difficult because of how piecemeal it is. The way I see it, first separating the two major issues at play is important: Whether or not a juggle will continue vs. whether or not a juggle COMBO will continue. A continued juggle combo implies a continued juggle, but not the reverse.

In the most immediate sense, juggling (combo or no) is governed by this timer-like device called 追撃可能時間: “Time for Possible Pursuing/Following Strike” or whatever. This is the time window after each juggle hit within which the next move must connect to continue a juggle (otherwise the attack will not make contact at all). The reason juggling ability deteriorates is because with each hit this timer (henceforth “Pursuit Time”) shrinks depending on a counter called 削減値: “Reduction Value,” an indicator of how much the Pursuit Time has been “reduced” thusfar in the juggle. The higher the Reduction Value, the shorter the Pursuit Time, the more difficult further juggling becomes (less time to connect each successive attack).

The site provides the following relationship:
RV – PT (in frames)
1 – 121
2 – 101
3 – 81
4 – 61
5 – 41
6 – 21
7 – 11
8 – 5
9 – 2
10+ – 1

This Reduction Value is the “Juggle Counter” that most of the older posts in this thread make reference to. All of the attacks in 3s have associated values attached to them corresponding to how much RV is added when a player lands them in a juggle; attacks range from RV+1 (potentially “good” juggling tools like Urien’s Chariot Tackle) to RV+15 (virtually ends the juggle right away, e.g. most grounded normals), with some SA hits having RV “reset” properties (connecting with them will reset RV to 0 after which presumably any attack can continue the juggle, e.g. Yun’s attacks under SA3 or the last hit of Makoto SA2).
Starting on the order of seconds, PT for next hit shrinks quite rapidly as juggle RV increases; time windows above RV5 are halved until juggling becomes nearly impossible in practice because the successive attacks must connect within a single frame of those preceding them (no 3s character really has the capability to attack like that). Additionally, when a juggle reaches RV15, the extra condition that the next hit must be a Super Art hit to connect is imposed (at RV15 only one-frame SAs can continue a juggle).

Now, comboing. Note that the above still has nothing to do with whether or not a juggle will combo, only whether or not an attack will actually hit a juggled opponent regardless of whether or not a combo is happening.
Comboing in a juggle depends on RV/PT (naturally, if you can’t juggle at all you obviously can’t combo in a juggle) and also on what state the opponent is in. As far as juggling is concerned there seem to be only two, which the above site refers to as 吹き飛びダウン and 吹き飛び着地: “blown-away down” and “blown-away landing” (I assume that’s their term for the state after being hit in the air, the “blown/knocked flying” phrase).

  • “Down,” the state in which the juggled character “ragdolls” about in the air; player has no agency and is at the mercy of his opponent. Good term for this would be “Air-Reeling.”
  • “Landing,” The state in which the juggle character does a little rolling backflip ending in upright falling posture; player can parry but otherwise has no agency. Good term would be "Air-Reset."
    Most Supers and many specials cause Air-Reeling when hitting an already airborne character (e.g. Gouki’s fireball) and/or even hitting a grounded character (e.g. Gouki’s Tatsu). Most normals (e.g. Ryu’s… anything other than sweep) and some specials (e.g. Ryu’s fireball) cause Air-Reset when hitting an airborne opponent. More than a few sites have reasonably comprehensive information on which kind of juggle state each attack in the game causes.

Combining this airborne state with the Reduction Value/Pursuit Time dictates comboing:

  • If the juggled character is Air-Reeling and PT is not violated, the next attack will combo.
  • If the juggled character is Air-Reset and PT is not violated, the next attack will combo IF it connects before the character begins to “flip out” (i.e. the attack must combo naturally off the hitstun of the move that caused the Air-Reset, and RV/PT mechanics must allow the juggle to continue). If it does not combo off the hitstun of the Air-Resetting move, the combo is finished. Subclause: If PT is not violated and the opponent hasn’t landed, the next attack can still connect and potentially juggle further (starts a new combo) if it is a Super Art hit, though the Air-Reset character can air-parry the SA provided the player is capable of executing.
  • If the character has flipped out in air-reset state, non-SA hits will not connect even if PT hasn’t expired yet. And of course, if PT is violated at any point no further attacks will combo because they won’t even make contact (the juggle itself is done).

So that’s about it. It’s an inscrutable mess, I recognize, but I don’t think I can do any better on a straight-up explanation. I can provide more concise illustrative examples to back all this up in case anyone’s confused or curious, though.


#931

Sanchez!


#932

Perhaps someone can attach a video of the meters that have to do with juggling. It’s a lot easier to understand that way I think.


#933

Yeah, the writing is dense; apologies for that. I posted this above; it’s the video that accompanies the explanation on the site. The relevant mechanisms are illustrated below the 2P health bar: The number to the gauge’s left is Reduction Value while the green, draining material in the gauge is the Pursuit Time for that value.

First example is pretty standard. Yun starts the juggle with EX-nishou (two hits: RV+1 and RV+2 respectively; RV is now 3 and PT ticks down from 81 frames), then just the second hit of another EX-nishou (RV+2; RV is now 5 and PT ticks down from 41 frames), and finally both hits of yet another EX-nishou that just barely connects before the previous PT drains out (RV+1, RV+2; RV is now 8 and PT is a mere 5 frames).

The second example is more interesting. Q hits an airborne Ken with close st.Jab (RV+1) xx SA2 (RV+1, then RV+2). The Jab starts the juggle and, like most grounded normals, causes Air-Reset; however, the Jab is also one of two rare grounded normals in Q’s moveset that isn’t RV+15. So, because RV is only 1 after the Jab (and thus PT draining out to end the juggle is not an issue because it’s like 120 frames) and SA2 starts up in 2 frames (fast enough to combo off the Jab’s hitstun), the whole thing is one combo with the air-reset state caused by the jab immediately set to air-reeling again by the SA before Ken can flip out of hitstun (like he does when hit by most normals in the air).
RV becomes 4 after the whole thing and PT is 61 frames. As illustrated in the video, Q can’t connect with the attempted followup st.Fierce because PT just barely runs out.

To further explore hypotheticals with the mechanics: The above combo doesn’t work with any other normal Q has. Almost all of Q’s other normals are RV+15, so hitting an airborne opponent with them renders comboing with this super impossible (SA2 is not 1-frame startup and thus cannot connect fast enough to combo when RV is 15), and only other one that isn’t RV+15 (b+Strong, RV+1) isn’t cancellable and recovers too slowly for him to combo into super on an air-reset target.
However, with the two non-RV15 normals it’s possible to still juggle with SA2 (just can’t combo with it) after the airborne hit IF you can land the super. E.g. if you do close st.Jab earlier and link the SA2 instead of cancelling, or if you use the upper end of b+Strong when the opponent is at around max jump height and then crank the super out so it hits the air-reset opponent just before he lands on the ground. Note that in this scenario it’s possible to air-parry the SA2 if the parry is inputted properly, but if the super hits the followup st.Fierce after the SA2 will STILL whiff because RV is unchanged from before. Even though the normal didn’t combo into SA2, the juggle counter values are the same.

Eh, maybe it still reads like rambling nonsense. The example with Q is a bit too quirky to be very insightful; probably easier to see the mechanics with a character like Gouki, who uses them a lot in many of his actual juggles.


#934

Scrubby question incoming…but when exactly do you tap down for Quick Rise? I don’t get to play much third strike on my own for practice and when I play at a friends house I can never get the hang of it…mashing it doesn’t work apparently…


#935

Double tap down when you land on the floor.


#936

what the? Mashing does work


#937

a few months ago we talked about characters falling out of Chun SA2. did anyone ever figure out why this happens? I’ve only ever seen it with Chun confirming back fierce on a crouching Makoto. is that the only situation it happens or are there others?

can’t remember where it was posted now.


#938

crouching strongs


#939

at first I thought yeah it’s just a weird counterpoke thing. like you catch the tip of Mak low strong with back fierce and maybe the distance is too far or something? but yesterday I caught someone guessing low with back fierce, this was point blank on top of them, and Mak still fell out of Houyoku after a few hits.

this was on arcade so it definitely happens in all versions of the game.


#940

Sounds like maybe you linked the back fierce. You can usually see the skip on screen when you hit one of the cancels that’s going to drop them into block. So like maybe it’s on a receding frame. I remember mentioning that before in this thread. The 3s chars aren’t like the chars in other games. They breath and their breath is made apparent by a shift in their hurt boxes and push boxes.