Things you just don't understand about ST

Wait i am fluent in retard allow me to translate:

Humorous bearded men… this has been said by the masters of Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People’s Republic of China for a decade.

The easiest way to demonstrate is with the man who stands at the top of flaming manliness Ken.

I am not surprised that the big bearded men always played with their big sticks as opposed to the small Asian ones. This is due to their inferior intellect.

Ryu was the best man at my wedding.

He got Chun pregnant, Then she said aloud: No i must kill the babies but then the priest said: No Ryu you are the baby.

And then Ryu was a pregnant.

Wait you are fluent in retard? No wonder you were born this way. Your mother take your oxygen and you are handicap.

Hey guess what? I tell you true I AM fluent in ass kick, and yours is dirty. You are comedy.

This conversation hk best man have already talk about many years ago in bible days of SRK. I also tell corrosion this why happen. This is old school news. I am student you are teacher. I have fail you. Plz go back your moms vagina to get your nutrients. :tdown:

I object sir.

You are truly comedy.

It’s not ryu’s fault. It’s just too tempting for ryu.

You dont know who you are fucking with. HK Master is the asia version of the fighting game combo genius Desk. HK Master can find out all the bugs and shits that scrubs can’t.

Summary of cauldrath’s findings/confirmations and stuff I’ve tested:
Dizzytime is how long you have to wait until your stun resets to 0. Dizzytime goes down during anything during the game! Hitstun, blockstun, and knockdown included.
Almost all attacks add dizzytime. The dizzytime just gets accumulated to the current dizzytime you have.
One dizzytime is one simulation frame. However, ST is actually simulated at 75 fps according to sirlin and the drawing is done at 60 fps. Thus, sometimes, the dizzytime counter will go down by more than 1 per frame. The dizzytime immediately starts ticking down as soon as you get it.

Almost all attacks add a random amount of stun between two integers. This stun is simply summed up as you get hit and does not get reduced due to combos. The only way to get rid of stun is for your dizzytime to hit 0 to reset your stun. Stun will not decrease over time like in 3s/sf4.

I haven’t tested, but due to the assembly code snippet cauldrath pointed out, I suspect that it’s easier to get dizzied on faster speeds because the dizzytime probably doesn’t drop down at a faster rate due to the higher speed.

Grabs do not seem to do any dizzy. If you need an excuse to use non-grab throws on a grab char, use it to dizzy.
Chars dizzy at 30 or above. However, characters have some type of modifier that affects how much stun they take per hit. This is either a simple multiplier or there’s a random chance of just subracting/adding 1 to the hit.

Throws do not instantly stun or add to the dizzy timer. Teching does not seem to reduce the stun or dizzy timer.

Dizzytime does not strictly determine how much stun an attack does.
However generally, heavier moves do more dizzy.
Sets of moves with the same dizzy/strength commonly have the same dizzytime. However, you can’t use this when trying to find the optimal stun combos/setups. Moves unintuitively have different stuns that were programmed due to the game designer. For example, n.ryu’s best diagonal jumping stun move is

The stun from a move does not seem to be a uniform distribution. It is harder to get the lower or higher end of the stun a move can do than the middle.

Here are some tests I ran to test how characters receive extra/less stun. As you can see, sim indeed does definitely stun more easily than ryu who stuns more easily than gief.

Note that these tests may be slightly inaccurate since I could only test by repeated trials. I don’t know assembly well enough to figure out the algorithm and numbers from the game.

gief vs sim
nj.8+hp 22-29 100
dj.2+hp 12-18 60
cr.lp 0-7 40
cl.lp 0-7 40
fa.lp 0-7 40 0-7 40 6-13 60 *can be 5? 5-13 60
cl.hp 12-18 80 6-13 130

gief vs ryu
nj.8+hp 22-27 100
dj.2+hp 12-17 60
cr.lp 0-5 40 6-11 60 *can be 5?
cl.hp 11-16 80

gief vs gief
nj.8+hp 21-27 100
dj.2+hp 11-17 60
cr.lp 0-5 40 5-11 60
cl.hp 10-16 80
lariat 9-14 100

ryu vs ryu

*when i got a range of 6 inclusive, i quickly stopped for testing most ranges
moves have the following dizzy properties generally unless otherwise noted:
ground light 0-5 stun 40 time
ground med 5-10 stun 60 time
ground hard 11-15 stun 80 time

dj light 2-7 stun
dj medium/hard 4-9 stun

nj light 2-7 stun 40 time
nj med 6-11 stun 50 time
nj hard 11-16 stun 60 time

move stun time notes

cl.lp 40 60
cl.hp 3-8 40 wierd
cl.hp(2nd part) 11-15 80 2nd hit 40 60 10-14 60+70 2-hit (128) hit) 2-5

cr.lp 40 60
cr.hp 3-8 40 wierd 40 60 5-10 130

fa.lp 40 60
fa.hp 80 40 60 80

dj.lp 40 40 2nd hit has very little stun
dj.hp 40 40 7-11 50 best dj stun 40

nj.lp 40 50
nj.hp 60 40 50 60

6+hp 2-5 70/70 1st hit
6+hp (2nd) 1-6 70/70 2nd hit

6+mp 2-6 70/70 1st hit
6+mp (2nd) 2-6 70/70 2nd hit

p throw 7-13 100
k throw 8-13 100

srk 10-15 100
tatsu 4-9 90
air tatsu 4-9 90
blue fb 8-13 110
red fb 5-11 100

super 5-10 n/a *a bunch of small hits and this is general result

Grabs do some dizzy, sometimes after a SPD, the oponent ends up dizzy and ready for the Knock Out

SPD is a throw, a grab is like Blanka’s bite, Ken’s knee bash, Sim’s noogie, etc.

If anyone wants me to confirm/test something with regards to dizzy just ask. It’s pretty easy to do.

If you want a good idea of the low end of stun for a combo, use the second lowest number since the extremes are rarely rolled. I think you can generally add 1 for sim and subtract 1 for gief for dizzy combos. I think looking at the data really is only good for making sure you don’t press certain buttons that unintuitively have lower stun when you’re going for a dizzy.

Remember that extremes of stun rarely get rolled.

When you sweep someone, you generally have slightly less than 30 display frames to hit them again to keep the dizzy timer going.

If blanka hits you with a combo and you don’t get dizzied, if you just block until the timer wears out you cannot get dizzied. His throw cannot dizzy. This applies to any char who also has only grab throws.

blanka vs ryu

I did some blanka. I don’t expect this data to be very illuminating except to confirm what people have intuitively known for a while. Still, confirmation is nice.
Main things:
Use for maximum dj dizzy.
dj.hp is terrible for stun. for max nj stun.
upballs might be slightly better for stun.
you could use close mp, far hp/hk for maximum dizzy chargeless punish outside point blank range
obviously crossup lk,, 4+mp does a lot of stun but it can actually fail quite a bit

Special move strengths may have slight differences in stun like they do in damage, but it’s way too cumbersome to try to figure it out through running a lot of trials. They seem roughly the same to me.

move		stun		time	notes

ground light	0-6	40
ground med	5-11	60
ground hard	11-16	80

dj light	1-7	40
dj med	5-11	50
dj hp		3-8	40
dj hk		11-17	60

nj light	2-7	40
nj med	6-11	50
nj hp		10-15	80
nj hk		12-17	60		(5-11)x2	60+60	2 hits		6-11		130	sweep

3+hp		5-10		130	slide
cl.4/6+hp	(5-10)x2	60+60	headbutt

ball		9-15		100
up-ball	10-15		100
(4),6+k	4-6		30
elect		10-15		100

super		2-4

Can you please do this for the rest of the cast? Pretty please? :karate::karate:

Instant overhead dizzy set-ups with gief:
close sweep. meaty instant overhead nj.headbutt (world version). meatying this as an overhead is difficult. will usually dizzy. works on guile. may not work on all characters. you can instant overhead if you aren’t close enough for the headbutt. xx lariat (usually due to a punish) and instant overhead meaty w/ or nj.headbutt. will almost always dizzy while nj.headbutt will always dizzy.

far, sweep. instant overhead.

basically any knockdown combo that didn’t stun but usually does should have enough time left over to let you instant overhead for the dizzy. this obviously applies to any character with an instant overhead.

raw lariat or regular throws dont have enough dizzy timer to keep the stun when the opponent gets up.

if you’re close enough to do nj headbutt setups, you can just safe jump though so it’s more of a shenanigan. I was hoping it would work against ken as a legit mixup since you can’t safejump him, but his head is too low to instant overhead with headbutt.

NJ. Headbutt is not an instant overhead. Every character can crouch under it.

I’d love to know if splash does more dizzy than DJ. HP/HK. In my experience Zangief’s best three throws for dizzying are far RBG, MP Piledriver, and LP SPD in decsending order of effectiveness.

When characters get up, they have at least a single “standup” frame if they’re holding crouch and aren’t reversaling. Characters with tall hitboxes can be hit by it. Doing meaty instant overhead nj headbutt is just a gimmick really though b/c it’s always better to just safe jump or safe meaty far lk and it’ s actually pretty hard to time.

There’s some stuff to consider in gief’s dizzy when trying to spd into a dizzy.

Often, the dizzy timer will hit 0 before the throw will add to the dizzy timer because no dizzy is caused until the damage is registered. You have to create really large dizzy before you can cause stun before the timer hits 0. One setup is raw crossup splash, cr.jabx3-4, spd. The spd dizzy will almost always work and will do more damage overall than comboing into sweep. However keep in mind that the timing for cr.jabx3 spd to dizzy is much tighter than cr.jabx4 spd to dizzy and you have to land the splash as deep as possible. Characters that do not have hitboxes forward of their green collision box will not let you cr.jabx4. Sweep into meaty splash, cr.jab x2, spd can dizzy because of the timer from the sweep.

Similarly, raw lariat into any meaty attack will not extend the dizzy from the lariat. xx lariat however will cause enough dizzy to let you meaty and extend. Punishing with xx lariat into safe ambiguous splash for possible dizzy would be a much better punish than spd midscreen if the enemy does a very unsafe move.

If you’re comboing into charge characters w/o charge or sim, going for the spd dizzy is a good idea and will give you more damage and higher chance of dizzy than comboing into sweep.

gief vs ryu

can extend into spd dizzy off of crossup splash, cr.lpx4, spd
only useful vs characters w/ fat hitboxes and can't reversal easily out of (sim)

move		stun	time	notes
ground light	0-5	40
ground med	5-11	60
ground hard	11-16	80		6-10	130	sweep		11-16	80+70	2 hits (2nd hit)	2-6

6+mp/hp	2-7	70	hop

dj light	2-7	40
dj med	6-11	50
dj hard	11-17	60

nj light	1-7	40
nj mp		2-5	40
nj mk		5-10	50
nj hard	11-17	60

nj.8+hp	22-27	100	headbutt
dj.2+hp	12-17	60	splash
dj.2+lk	4-7	40	light knees
dj.2+mk	1-5	40	med knees; yes, med knees seems to do lower dizzy than light knees

normal throws
grab throws don't dizzy
4/6+mp/mk	8-12	100

green hand	0-3	20
p/k lariat	9-14	100	can't extend dizzy after raw lariat
p spd		7-12	100	need to combo to extend into; can't extend out of
close k 360	9-13	100	can't seem to extend into; can extend out of in corner
far k 360	7-13	100	can extend time into/out of in corner

super		8-11	100	can't extend into/out of

I’m on the fence with this one. How useful is this information really? The only useful case would be where there are two normals that have similar properties and yet one causes radically more stun than the other.

Knowing the optimal dizzy normals/specials and making sure you don’t use a suboptimal one is pretty useful, especially against characters that dizzy easily. Some characters need all the help they can get against sim. How many people knew that blanka’s dj.hp did terrible dizzy? Although dj.hp and have much different properties in this matchup, making sure you avoid pressing dj.hp when you’re sure to get a deep jump-in on sim is very useful to know.

Almost all of the time the best jump-in dizzy is just gonna be a jumping hard attack. There might be some attack or throw that has bizarrely high dizzy though that’s been overlooked.

So, my argument is that the properties of moves (hit boxes, attributes such as start up time, number of hitting frames, and recovery) are so much more important than the degree of dizzy, that you would never select a normal based on it’s dizzy properties rather than it’s other attributes. Only in cases where two normals are functionally equivalent but one normal does far more dizzy would knowing the dizzy numbers be useful.

I’m happy to be argued around, but that’s how it seems to me.

i really hate how sim is able to dizzy almost any character with 2 hits, fuck that, fuck it man!, however, ken vs sim is an interesting matchup, i love it, call me masoquist.

that’s why i love to play vs optimo, robbiers and other good sim players.

SPD is a grab, after grabbing the other player, the throw happens, the other grabs you mention are known as “holds” yet both throws and holds are grabs, because you first grab them, then either a hold or a throw happens, depending the button pressed.

You try to be pedantic yet you were wrong.

Yeah you’re right geo. I’ve been testing some other chars while watching streams and there’s some really bizarre stun values set for normals. There’s a lot of hard close/jumping normals that just randomly have really low stun. There might be some overlooked thing w/ really high stun for no good reason who knows.

Sirlin mentioned that LP spd does the least damage and most stun of the different strength spds while HP spd does the opposite on both spectrums. I’m not sure if he validated that through the code but do your tests corroborate that info, CBO? Also, would you happen to have any noticeably strange stun values for claw by any chance?