Things you just don't understand about ST


#30

VF4, I know every attack has a stun value of x amount with variance, i was talking about a chance dizzy attack on TOP of that, which would explain why TODs and Gief headbutt are consistent, yet people still get dizzied by silly stuff like jumping short.

And also I will have to disagree about the start of the round…just experience tells me that it is easier to get dizzied, and I didnt make that up, i read it somewhere…

About the graphic glitches, it seems like the backgrounds flicker sometimes, especially on Deejay’s stage. Its like the background flickers or corrupts for a brief moment.

And yes pleass keep racist bullshit out of a thread for the best fighter ever.


#31

I didn’t say anything, those morons brought it up, lol. I asked a legitimate question, already got my answer playing around in FBA-RR, I can consistently stop the hop back on blanka’s super. They’re just butt hurt over some nonsense on ggpo. Taking the internet way too seriously.


#32

Yep… mediums generally do the most stun in the game. It is 100% false that it goes littles to hards in terms of how much an attack dizzys. There is random moves that do not follow this pattern. But in general this is how dizzys work. And neutral jump attacks for every character not just geif also generally if not every single character are there highest dizzying attacks. Dizzys also arent quite as random as I think people belive. The thing is you have to remember if a character is knocked down and then they stand back up you have to basically take away around half of the points of the dizzy of the move that knocked them down. Other wise besides a bit of randomness its pretty possible to tell when something will dizzy. Again the problem is really just remembering to subtract the move that knocked down if it didnt dizzy.


#33

Hey what’s up dude? If you are who i think you are, I played you a couple of times when HDR was first released. Good times. Do you still play?

Your theories interesting. It’s definitely a different explanation then I would expect to hear. I’d love to hear more about your theory though. Have you discovered any more moves with unique dizzy properties. Also, I don’t really understand what you said about “taking away half the stun points for an opponent standing up.” For instance, do you mean a move, when performed as a meaty, inflicts approximately half the stun points it would on a standing opponent? If so, that’s pretty cool, I never would have guessed it worked that way.

I’ve got a different theory about how the system works. I’m far from figuring it out though. Does anyone remember the guard bar from the capcom vs snk series? I think the Super Turbo dizzy system has similar, but different properties. I still can’t 100% explain how it works though.


#34

Not really a theory man. Its pretty much 100% you can test it yourself. Again randomness is slightly a factor. But in general there is a rule to when you are going to dizzy and when you are not. I actually posted ryus dizzys rates not to long ago. Lemme copy and paste…

From highest to lowest

Jump normals dizzy

-neutral jump hk, then hp
-neutral jump mp
-diagonal jump mp/mk
-diagonal jump hp
-diagonal jump hk
-everything else.

Ground normals
-close stand hk
-duck mp/mk, close stand mp/mk stand hp/hk/mp/(mk I forget… it might be here),duck hk*
-close stand hp, duck hp
-everything else

So basically if you are going for dizzy its almost always better to do medium jump ins to a medium canceable attack to special. The chance of dizzying is quite a bit higher. A lot of characters actually follow similar patterns. Besides a few here and there sorta things… In general you can sorta think of it like diagonal jumping/close/far/and crouching mediums do more then there hard counter parts. And almost every character in the game can actually just dizzy with a neutral jump attack to a medium or 2.

When I ment knocking down I ment like… Its the same reason think of why ryus red fireball seems to do less stun then his blue fireball. If a character is knocked downed down you gotta take away like half of the stun of that move about. So lets say the move does 3 points of stun. Well if it dizzys its all good. BUT, if the move is going to knock down and not dizzy then once the dude stands back up you gotta take away that point and a half in your brain.

Also(this one im actaully not 100% on, as it could be the random factor coming into play here but…)moves tend to do less stun the more then are used in a row. Examples being say new ryus jump mp. If it hits twice, the following combo tends to have a less dizzying chance as if it only hit once. Same way if you were to say do nothing but one attack over and over trying to dizzy. But if you throw in another attack along the way. Much higher chance of dizzying. I assume this is why in ST unlike real old SF it is much harder to dizzy with rapid fire shorts etc. Beacuse in ST they added if you keep doing the same move over and over again less chance to dizzy thing. Where as if you were to do it in SF2 or some shit. Not that hard.

Anyway nah, I havn’t played much man. I started trying to sign on to play ST randomly towards the end of this(errr last)year. But carpal tunnel, bones growing out of hands all the usual health problems… And well my controller broke to the point of being unplayable ive basically stopped. ha… I do plan on buying a new controler sometime this year though… just hard to force myself to, when I don’t really play so its… not very economical? to say? lol

Maybe if im ever out that way though again and your with nick or something we can play though. Will see.


#35

O.K., everything you just wrote makes perfect sense. Good luck with medical stuff too. We’ll see about playing as well. If not, it’s all good too.

So back to business. I agree with most of your theory but not about everything. Hopefully my post will make sense here. Check this video out.

[media=youtube]8VGTmbQ_tYo[/media]
and go to 2:37. Obviously a completely different game, but hopefully my post will make sense here. Notice how the opponents gaurd bar is flashing, but as the person is getting hit by the custom combo, his guard bar is not going back to full, like it would as if he were not being hit or hitting his opponent. On the other hand, the attackers “gaurd bar” is filling up to normal.

OK, so in ST. I personally think that when you knock your opponent down, the “dizzy” bar remains at the same level throughout the fall and get up. Slightly different than the cvs2 example. My little “theory” doesn’t explain how dizzies start at the beginning of the match though. You know what i’m saying? that’s what i don’t get


#36

Wouldn’t an accurate way to determine attack dizziness be to debug memory before and after hits (I think MAME comes with a debugger nowadays)? After you find the address for handling dizziness and set a counter there, you could directly test how much dizziness each attack averages. I’d do some tests myself but I’ve been busy lately.


#37

theres a good amount of randomness to the dizzy system. one of the advantages of having really bad connect like mine is you see a lot of roll backs. so what happens when i hit someone, i see them dizzy, then it rolls back and when i hit them again with the same move, it doesn’t dizzy. but everything mentioned above about the med strength doing more dizzy does make since. I’m going to spend some time studying this. does anyone know if in training mode the dizzy system works the same? sometimes i feel like in training mode the dummy never gets dizzy or takes a ridiculous amount of hits to dizzy.


#38

I did some messing around with MAME and I’m pretty sure address FF88AB is the dizzy counter for player 2 on World 940223. It gets incremented on every hit, counts down on every frame, and drops to zero on dizzy. It also will not increment when you hit someone that is dizzied or a short time after they recover, whether by mashing or being hit.

EDIT:
Doing some quick tests with Chun against Ken, close and far normals are 40 dizzy for light, 60 for medium, 80 for heavy. (I haven’t tested crouching yet.) Kikkoken is 90 for all strengths. This makes me think that the dizzy point is what is random, rather than what the moves themselves do.

Just tested a couple combos and I dizzied in one of them at 129, but another didn’t dizzy at 139, but then did at 151. Also, Chun’s diagonal jump fierce only does 60 dizzy, instead of 80 like the grounded ones.

LLs: 100 (I’ve gotten some crazy high dizzy numbers on this, like 211, finally dizzying with a 286)
cr. HK: 130
Jump attacks light: 40, medium: 50, heavy: 60
Neutral jump HK: 80

So, from the above, my guess of how the dizzy system works is that each move has a set amount it adds to the counter, but also a random range of values for the counter where it will dizzy. When you hit with a move, it increments the counter, then randomly decides what value will be enough to dizzy.


#39

Interesting about the dizzies. Never knew!


#40

Nice Job, Cauldrath!

What kind of software you used to search for the address? Some kind of cheat editor?
This approach is useful to research these mysterious ST riddles.

So how much dizzy does GMC gief’s neutral jump headbutt do?

It would be cool if we document all these dizzy value and put them into a comprehensive table, but that can be a lot of work.

Or if we can reverse engineer where the table is stored in the rom and just dump the table (like the move list hitbox table).

If we can dump the frame data table out it would be even more awesome.


#41

I used MAME’s cheat search and just did comparisons until it left a single address. Although, I’m starting to think there is something else determining dizzies, because when I make a cheat locking that address to a certain value, it seems to act the same as if I hadn’t done that.


#42

You need to set a breakpoint at the dizzy value address. Find out what reads from it and step through the assembly code, that way you can find the threshold or the flag (whichever it uses) that determines when the dizzy occurs that way. Just looking at the value really won’t do anything unless you find out what is reading the value and how it is interpreted.


#43

Yeah, because I totally want to step through the undoubted mess that is the Street Fighter 2 codebase with the added bonus of having to disassemble it from a ROM instead of having real code. I don’t even know where I could get an arcade ROM disassembler. There’s a HUGE difference between doing a few comparisons of RAM and stepping through disassembled code. Like, I’d-better-be-getting-paid-a-lot-for-this-and-get-a-few-weeks-to-do-it difference, even if someone else provided the disassembler.


#44

Mess? If you just find out what reads the address there is no mess, why would you be disassembling a ROM? You need to debug it…That’s pretty funny that you think it’d be weeks though, it took me 30 minutes to find it.

PRO TIP…“mame.exe -debug” ;).


#45

Interesting stuff guys. Thanks to everyone that’s responded.


#46

Can you list your findings?


#47

I feel like the Dreamcast training mode dizzies like real ST does after the round is past the 10 second mark, it does seem harder and I get less random dizzies than in real matches, but TODs are consistent.


#48

Doesn’t the Yoga Book Hyper already list dizzy averages for every attack?


#49

Nope, only damage averages.