Things you wish you did

gouken

#1

I have a list of things I always forget to do in matches. I know about it, I just never remember to use it in a match. I’m just going to make a list, hopefully others can list their own as well.

Be specific when you make your list (about what it is) so that perhaps we can share tech amongst ourselves.

1: Use st.cl.HK as antiair more. This is incredibly useful for neutral jumps on your wakeup and even more so for those people who like to jump on you where it is almost an ambiguous cross up. Those times when people do the block string that pushes them out to the perfect jump distance to do either the ambiguous cross up or an actual crossup. This stops that nonsense. I just started using this the other day even though I’ve always known about it (Hence the title, things I wish I did) and it greatly improved my win percentage for the day. Was straight stopping that nonsense, whereas usually you are forced to block or kongo. 4 Frame start up anti air over the top of your head? Yes please!

2: Kongo or palm in hit into super: This is pretty self explanatory. I’m pretty bad at watching my bars. I just always assume I have at least one or I only check for super after backthrow.

3: Tatsu FADC Ultra in combos: This one is pretty easy if you have the execution down. If you do a jump in, cr.hp xx tatsu, you will always be at the right distance for the Ultra FADC.

4: Tatsu as antiair: This kind of goes hand in hand with number 3. If I used it as an antiair more I could FADC ultra more, though truth be told, I tried all last night to specifically do this and everytime I FADCed I would up crossing up the other guy so the Ultra wouldn’t work.

EDIT: Elegant solution to the tatsu too close for FADC Ultra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CFT-YPyzzI&t=0m37s

5: Kongo armor cancel Ultra: I need to work on the execution but I want to try to incorporate this into my game as I feel it has uses in footsies and wake up. Sure, it’s a gamble as using kongo always is but the pro can outweight the con. Much like how Mullah will only use kongo when he has a super stocked…

6: j.mp xx tatsu: I’ll be damned if I can ever remember to tatsu after I j.mp or even rejump with dj.hk

7: This is something I discovered for myself and while it isn’t groundbreaking or anything I think it can be useful. I need to use forward dash mp palm more for people neutral jumping fireballs at the opposite side of the screen. I haven’t tested with everyone, but they land on your already palm which is already in active frames. I’m sure you can get hit out of this, but for the unawares who think they are safe over there, it’s a great way to end a round or match. You hit them just as they are about to touch the ground so they are probably thinking they can just block…

8: Another thing I was testing… I need to find a set up (forward throw or tatsu or palm or something) that puts the opponent on the other side of the screen. From full screen away, if you toss a fireball (and this depends on how early or late they jump) and they forward jump you can dash tatsu with lk, mk, or EX. This is actually the PRIME spot to FADC tatsu and Ultra them as well. I was testing it using Oni vs Gouken on record. Depending on the time of my jump Oni would get tatsu’d FADC Ultraed. The dash allows you time to see if they are forward jumping or not. Just need to find a set up where if they choose to forward jump they have committed themselves to a nut punch.

9: Tick throw: Sounds dumb right? Yeah I know. I don’t tick throw enough. I do it plenty off dive kicks, both command and flip ones, but I almost never st.cl.mp kara throw or c.lp>c.lp kara throw. It really would go a long way into improving my game

10: Speaking of which, baiting crouch techs by doing c.lp>c.lp > Kongo

11: Kongoing FA’s: I jump in on people who are focus attacking and will block. Really everyone should be either EX tatsuing (Ideal) or doing a kongo, cause nothing is so sweet as jumping in with a HK or FP or dive kick and then landing and doing Kongo as your opponent is thrilled about the combo they think they are about to land before getting shrugged off to the other side of the screen.

12: Used demon flips to end block strings: I’m a pretty “safe” player as in that I will go with ending a blockstring with a fireball and almost never jump on a shoto unless it is cross up. I wish I used demon flips more at the end of a block string or in footsies (poke cancel into) to apply more pressure.

13: st.cl.mk xx Gohado > cr.mp xx gohado: Pretty self explanatory. This works midscreen as well as corner for pressure, I just don’t use it at all for some reason.


#2

I wish that I didn’t spend 3 years on this Son of a Bitch for them to nerf dive kick, instant air grab whiff, kongo, and lp palm.


#3

Seriously, has any other characters received that many nerfs to their tool set???


#4

Dive Kick over head is not a huge nerf. Sure, seem like a big deal to be a over head but people would just start blocking it anyway. It will catch them off guard but it really is not that much of a different.

Instant air grab whiff…? What exactly is whiffed on this anyway?

Kongo feel like a nerf, sure, but the change does make Tatsu way better. Plus you can still anti-air with mp kongo. It rarely misses. Most jump in, and almost ALL dive kick are MP kongo possible. IF they hit high enough to requires HP kongo it usually won’t combo.

Lp palm make close range zoning harder but it is mostly replaced by simple dash > st HK. Plus it give you a whole new set of jump in c.lk > palm where Gouken didn’t used to be able to do whatsoever.

All I am saying is that the glass is half empty or half full depends on how you look at it. These are not nerf, changes, not nerfs.


#5

Dude, overhead dive kick was a HUGE nerf. You are crazy if you can’t see it.

The fact that they have to stand, making their hitbox bigger for you to DF grab or DF sweep into an untechable knockdown, or even a DF cross up is something huge.

Being overhead is one of the reasons akuma’s DF palm is so good. it makes whiffing it and then going for a quick low an amazing mix-up.

What’s the mix-up on the dive kick now? if they crouch, they make the much throw harder to get and cover all the other options.


#6

dive kick overhead nerf was nothing compared to backthrow nerf!
aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!

reipin, number 3 is only the best choice if you have two bars and have just hit with a df dive kick (knowing they are standing) or know the character is tall enough to do it anyway.
otherwise, with 1 bar or 3 bars, you want an ex palm combo.
tatsu is also the best combo if you have no bars, but that doesn’t apply to what you are saying.
for 2 bars, (df kick > cl.mp > c.mp xx hk.tatsu xx fadc > ultra) gives you 503 damage i believe, the same as backthrow ultra USED to give us.
1 bar (df kick > cl.mp > c.hp xx ex palm > hk. tatsu) = 450
3 bars (df kick > cl.mp > c.hp xx ex palm xx fadc > ultra) = over 600

without tatsu being a guaranteed hit on all 3 crouching conditions of a character (blocking, in hit stun, unaffected) tatsu ends up being a simple damage tool.
if it can hit all three conditions, it becomes a combo/frame trap tool, like against balrog and sagat.
then your number 3 is dead on, do it more.
but most of the characters don’t meet all three of those conditions in crouch, meaning that tatsu can be a chance for you to lose the round if played improperly.

your number 1 is dead on.
i wish i did that more.

number 2 is kind of fucked now that they can fake out aa kongo, but it’s still good after low kongos that bait crouch techs.
i wish i used kongo more for that.
i see bullcat do it all the time.
but, i’m usually backthrowing and that beats crouch techs into ultra, so whatever.

number 4, aa tatsu - since the other tatsus don’t suck them in like ex, i think ex is the only good aa tatsu. i thought that aa lk. tatsu’s ability to trade into ultra would be good, (because the motion for [aa tatsu xx fadc > ultra] also gives you trade > ultra) but unless you hit with it from far out, the ultra whiffs! i don’t know. i’ve been trying aa lk. tatsu, but it has been a little disappointing compared to good old c.hp. c.hp, c.mk, cl.hk and ex tatsu cover all anti airs i think.

(jump in > kongo the fa xx super) is the holy grail of gouken combos.


#7

oh, i have 1 more thing i wish i did, test for fa’s with (c.lk xx lk.df)
if they focus your c.lk, they get killed.


#8

for the MILLIONTH time, flip kick’s overhead awesomesauce wasn’t in the idea of getting free combos because they forgot to block high. It was good because it actually gave the flip a mixup and made the throw easier. Now the flip has no mixup. This is not a “change” this is a nerf.

As for the kongo/tatsu thing. They DID NOT need to nerf kongo just because it moved to all-punches to make tatsu viable. There is no excuse for this nerf. Not to mention the damage nerf as well. WTF. This whole thing is a nerf on top of a change. As for “mp kongo works almost every time.” Ya, tell that to the bison matchup, which already sucked, and now sucks even more.

The change to lp.palm gives us a low-damage option with almost zero follow up. Meanwhile we lost the fireball fadc cr.hp x lp.palm combo, now replaced with a week sweep or a cr.lk x tatsu if you feel like risking a wiff + full punish. Many matchups also depended on that lp palm for punish, like the blanka matchup, which is now much worse. If they had given lp.palm invincibility frames on startup? Ya, maybe could see a use. Verdict: nerf.

Not to mention the backthrow nerf which causes gouken’s big punish to be pathetic.

This is is not a half-full-half-empty situation. They purposefully put gouken in the bottom tier because Ono thinks that it’ll make for tournament-hype-building underdog matchups. They ruined the balance of the game on purpose and Gouken players got the short end of the stick.


#9

quote=“Reipin Pillage, post: 5588124”]
1: Use st.cl.HK as antiair more. This is incredibly useful for neutral jumps on your wakeup and even more so for those people who like to jump on you where it is almost an ambiguous cross up. Those times when people do the block string that pushes them out to the perfect jump distance to do either the ambiguous cross up or an actual crossup. This stops that nonsense. I just started using this the other day even though I’ve always known about it (Hence the title, things I wish I did) and it greatly improved my win percentage for the day. Was straight stopping that nonsense, whereas usually you are forced to block or kongo. 4 Frame start up anti air over the top of your head? Yes please!

[/quote]

This is my #1 wish for me as well. I swear, my mind knows to do it, especially on wakeup neutral jumpers, but my fingers simply refuse to act. It’s great for dhalsim air teleport as well.


#10

the nerfs aside, there have been some decent buffs that we would have wanted regardless and that round him out.
the buffs to his frame data on his normals have been significant.
a 3 frame normal to use after his good focus attack was really good. (cl.mk xx lp. palm) is strong after a level 1 focus tap and is a hit confirm for super.
the new cl.mp gives him the ability to hit confirm ex palm and tatsu combos after ambiguous df kicks. that is great! i lost a lot of damage and a lot of ex (and a lot of rounds) because i didn’t know what side i was going to land on and got (df kick > c.hp xx ex kongo)
the new df parry is very good as well. it lets us throw aa normals, like balrog’s c.hp.
he’s been nerfed, but i don’t think it is as bad as you think.
they keep taking away his deadliness and giving him more options to do lower damage.
it isn’t an auto loss to pick gouken, he just doesn’t have an advantage over many characters.

don’t forget that gouken has some of the best (easiest, inexpensive and highest damage) punishes in the game.
have you ever seen what bison does to a whiffed dp or flash kick? lol.

oh, and to the dude saying df dive kick wasn’t a nerf and that nerfing kongo made tatsu better - anything that makes your character do less damage is a nerf.
they thought it was too good so they took it away.


#11

Gen has, from SF4 to SSF4. His nerfs are -

  • Reduced metergain on all Mantis Stance moves by 70%.
  • Reduced metergain on all Crane Stance moves by 30%.
  • Hands having further pushback resulting in loss of his MK -> Hands loop.
  • EX Oga (Only solid escape option) lost all strike invincibility.
  • Much higher jump arcs with both Stances.
  • Damage reduction on most normals anywhere from 15 - 30%.
  • Range on Mantis S.MK (His best poke) reduced with its hurtbox extending beyond its hitbox.
  • HK Gekiro (Uppercut Kick) having a smaller hitbox.
  • Reduced invincibility frames on his Mantis Super.

All of these nerfs we’re pretty significant, but the biggest nerf of all was the metergain nerf. In Vanilla, Gen had one of the best, if not the best metergain
of all characters in the whole game. In SSF4, his metergain is considered to be the worst in the game. It really hurt his game alot because Gen has very weak meterless combos, and depends on meter to do decent damage. As a result of this, Gen became a High Risk, Low Reward character and it doesn’t help out with him losing his EX Oga invincibility, still having 900 health/stun, making him a very free and frail character.

AE has been good to Gen though. He received ZERO nerfs, and nothing but buffs, most of which is exactly what he needed thankfully. Many Gen Players are happy with the way he turned out, and are convinced he’s a good character again. Hope the next potential balancing for AE will be good to Gouken Players.


#12

Yes! Yes! Oh God Yes!


#13

-Really don’t care about the dive kick nerf, however it did make fighting charge characters a lot easier b/c safe jump totally removed that shit out of the equation. If you were playing Guile, it removed his Flash Kick out of the equation so on so forth. He had to stand, reversal, block, or try to back dash out and pray Gouken didn’t OS Sweep. Now he just sits back if he thinks you are going to dive kick. Also the overhead made it easier to grab opponents with G Flip Grab b/c the were standing, or you could just G-Flip Slide. For what I like to do, that’s a nerf.

-In Vanilla if you did G-Flip and whiffed the grab on purpose you could land behind/in front of the opponent just like Akuma recovers when de does DF Hammer Fist. Rush down/ bait tactic. For what I like to do, that’s a nerf.

-I don’t care about close range zong with palm. We lost the ability to frame trap, beat green hand on reaction, and catch opponents falling out of the air with mp/hp hado > lp palm to get the damage and push them into the corner. All for the sake of things we should have been able to like to the original lp palm anyway??? NERF! And I can’t remember the last time I’ve use hp palm aside from trying to Palm some one full screen through a fireball. HK GF Slide does the same thing and Gouken has other options off of the flip. We don’t need that piece of shit move.

-Dash hard kick either gets you thrown, hit confirmed, jumped on, or you eat a reversal. It’s good to use if you can counter hit, the block, or the jump and you move forward to make them whiff. That’s about it. Other than that, it’s too slow for someone who is trying to be all up in your shit. - NERF!

-If you don’t think Kongo was a nerf then we must be playing 2 different games. Some opponents have attacks that hit you high, but have good enough hit stun to combo you upon landing. And even if they don’t kongo, you have Gouken and they are right next to you, what are you going to do?? Tatsu?? Kongo?? , lp palm, EX Flip??? Or are you going to be a good boy and just block and pray you don’t get thrown??? Only EX Tatsu and EX Flip avoids the grab… of course you could try to jump out, just pray they aren’t spamming jabs for hit confirm and you are golden. You could possibly back dash, but you are only an OS away from being punished or being put on your ass again.

The fact that he has no real reversal suck b/c he can’t do shit but guess right or block and get thrown if some one is up close on him. If his zoning and defense breaks down he’s screwed, unless you can pick the prize between doors 1-3, there’s no all purpose DP… only shit that’s going to get you blown up.

So you take away his rush down, take away what little low game he had, take away his ability to get you the hell of him with HIGH kongo and fireball to lp palm, and I’m supposed to look at this shit at half full???

The glass was full buddy, and Capcom poured half of it out. None of the nerfs that Gouken got in AE were warranted.


#14

Ain’t that some shit, we just got AE and my glimmer of light is to hope that he is made better on the next one. I like Gouken as much as the next man, but if you kick a man in the balls must you spit on him too??


#15

yes it was, that shit was quite possibly his best mixup.

I don’t use cl. st. rh enough for anti air

I don’t blow up crouch techs enough


#16

I’d prefer it if every character in the game was made viable at a competitive level, but for some reason the development team decided to not make Gouken wonderful. It’s not like they didn’t know what they we’re doing, they just did it with certain intentions and with true purpose. I don’t play Gouken, but I can clearly see why the nerfs hurt him so much. In the meantime, you guys just have to adjust, even though right now it’s hard to accept the fact that he’s not solid.


#17

Don’t get me wrong. I didn’t say they are not nerf. I said they are not huge nerfs. I still think they are nerf we can handle. Gouken have always been a low tier character and it didn’t change. A disappointment, but nothing to sneer over.


#18

had i known cr.lk wouldn’t combo into lp palm back when they announced his ‘buffs’ i wouldn’t have started playing ssfvi again. false advertising :slight_smile:

kongo demon flip parry etc are non issues for me, they aren’t why he struggles. needs a 3 frame cr.lk that combos into palm, needs a way to deal with retarded rushdown like akuma vortex and ambigous jump ins that make tatsu, cr.hp and cr.mk whiff. fireballs are weak man can i have afaster charge pls. i’ll be keeping an eye open for the next round of buffs, and see you guys then


#19

1 - Learn how to use Denjin, its combos, its set-ups and really experiment with it. I have this sneaking suspicion that U2 will greatly help my chances against Blanka and Akuma, but I keep selecting U1 like some robot.
2 - Make use of the walk-under stand Fierce as described in ViperRX’s tutorial. I feel this may be better suited for combating close jump-ins than the close standing Roundhouse
3 - Invite strong Ibuki users to Endless for some sparring. I must have played about 20 Ibuki players since AE came out, and I’ve lost to nearly all of them. I could say the same about Abel, but at this point I really don’t care if I win or lose that match, as that fight is bollocks.
4 - More use of far standing Forward during footsies, to discourage jumping, Jag Kick etc.
5 - Have the guts to willfully use the GF parry, especially to draw out air-to-air attacks.
6 - More use of crouching Short to avoid attacks
7 - Use more crouch tech counters. Despite having more start-up than the close Fierce, Gouken’s close standing Fierce seems to connect with a lot more frequency than the close strong after a blocked mid-level GF dive kick, and yet I don’t really experiment with it.


#20

It’s precisely because of the fact that it has more start up that it 'connects", or more precisely, counter hits. It will also get you DP mashed.