This Does Not Suck: Fei Long Command Throw Thread

fei-long

#1

Let me start off by saying Fei long’s normal grab range blows. At .85, it is the third lowest in the game. For the less tech savy, anything after 2 crouching light attacks, and you have to walk foward in order to get your throw to connect. Usually Fei whimpers, and you get punched as your opponent starts his own combo.

For a character so dependant on close range combat, you are seemingly defeated by your opponent simply staying in a crouch blocked position. At first glance, this is a major weakness. But in reality, it keeps Fei’s throw game from being completely broken.

Enter The Command Grab

Stats

input-HCB+K. HCB+2K for EX
Normal command grab-14 frames of start up, 2 active frames, 51 recovery frames
Ex command grab-12 frames of start up, 2 active frames, 51 recovery frames

10+ Frames of Start up!!? WTF?

When stacked up to other command throws in the game, which generally have 5 frames or less of start up, plus additional properties such as being strike invincible, or throw invincible, or just doing damned massive damage, it may seem as though Fei is getting the short end of the throw. But the fact of the matter is quite the contrary.

But Mike, 10+ frames? Yeah, thats a long ass time. Most decent players will be able to to see the noticable break in your movements, and jab, short, or throw you well before the tenshin connects. Which is why you shouldn’t throw it out nakedly unless you have seriously just mind fucked your opponent.

The Goods

Fei Long’s command throw has the unique ability, due to that long ass startup, of still hitting after being cancelled from a normal. What is the normal of choice? Either a close standing jab, or a crouching jab. Both moves offer 10 frames of block stun, and 13 frames of hitstun. Meaning that from a blocked cancelled jab(into an ex tenshin), your opponent has only two frames of freedom. In this situation, the EX Tenshin will beat anything non-invincible, except escape jumps.

A normal tenshin from a block cancelled jab leaves a 4 frame hole. That means most characters can jab you out of it, and all can throw you out of it. Despite its reduced range, and longer start up time, the normal tenshin still has its uses. Namely, you can cancell a connected jab into a tenshin. However, the one frame hole that it leaves sometimes interferes with the active frames of the tenshin if you cancel it too fast. Characters can not be thrown while in hit or block stun, and if the active frames overlap, the throw whiffs.

The real use of of the normal tenshin is to land your super. All of your close standing and crouching normals, except close standing light kick, cancel into super. This is what makes the tenshin really dangerous, and is also why it dosen’t get all the fancy bells and whistles of the games other command throws. 500 damage from a throw that comes out during block strings becomes broken if you don’t give it some weak spots.

When Should I Whip It Out?

The command throw is best used as a mix-up tool in your block strings. You can land much more damage from tenshin resets and the like than any normal tick throw setups in the game. This move is still relatively young in its development cycle, but I and other Fei users who have been implementing can already see how powerful this move can be. You can land it raw from a blocked jump in. Or blocked jump in stand jabxxtenshin. Or in any situation where you know a jab will be blocked. For example, from a hit Mk CW. It only leaves you at a two frame advantage, so a follow up jab will likely be blocked and allow you to tenshin.

The tenshin is a great move, but beware of mash happy opponents. Tenshins are more likely to land on more skilled opponents than scrubs. Tenshin does not have any invincibility, and you can be hit by anything that has invulnerable or non throwable start up. So dont be supprised if you jump on XBL or PSN, and your immediate attempts are thwarted by the genius that is G-1


#2

Tenshin Set Ups

coming soon. inserted as submitted and tested. credit will be given. i will also try to get some vids up of concrete set ups for visual aid examples


#3

so uh yeah. so far i got

blocked jump in, ex tenshin
hit jump in, normal tenshin
blocked stand jab, ex tenshin

hit confirm to bnb or
blocked stand jab, crouch jab, ex tenshin
blocked crouch short, crouch jab, ex tenshin

big characters-blocked crouch short, stand jab, ex tenshin

close mp hit confirmed to bnb, or
blocked close mp, walk foward slightly, crouch jab, ex tenshin
blocked close mp, overhead, crouch jab ex tenshin

hit or blocked mk cw, cr.jab, ex tenshin

blocked close mp, overhead, foward throw, overhead, meaty ex tenshin on wakeup

bnb to rekka 2x, foward throw, overhead, meaty ex tenshin on wake up

hit mk cw, foward throw to above…

thats off the top of my head, but im gonna write down everythng i can come up with, including what to mix it up with, and alternative followups.

discuss


#4

What about FADCing normals mike? Do we get any frame advantage?


#5

im sure you do. but thats what this thread is about. brainstorm some shit, then come run it by everyone


#6

You can FADC close standing MP, and link afterwards…


#7

Why would you FADC cl.s.MP when you can already link after it with low jab into rekka or low strong into super and etc? o_O

The problem is this:

what is the fear of trying to interrupt Fei? You get hit with a BnB into rekka (not very strong and he can hardly oki you at all afterwards sans the corner)

When noting set-ups for Tenshin, I think we should note the risk that the opponent is taking in trying to interrupt it, backdash it, or jump out of it as well. Also, include the risk that Fei is taking by not doing Tenshin to lay bait for something else.

e.g.,

Fei has 2bars. He BnBs someone into a fierce rekka and stops at the 2nd rekka. When he stops, the opponent has to make a choice of course. Their options are governed by their meter and their character of course.

If they choose to block for a short period, they can get thrown.

Question: is Tenshin slow enough to spot and still avoid? I think the regular one is imo.

Question: does Tenshin outrange most regular throws? I believe the answer to this is yes. Has anyone mastered sitting in that range on opponent’s wake-up and making them guess:

block…tenshin…low strong…overhead…falvl1/2? esp after they have already been trained in every other character match-up to look for the wake-up throw?

Another question is: when is it during the match a good time to use Tenshin?

Also, versus certain player types, Tenshin just won’t work. In this instance, they are either giving you free damage by using risky reversals or stealing your momentum with low jab if you decide to block; or getting away from you via backdash or jump-away.

Thinking players are wary of doing stuff when opponents have 2bars and ultra. Shien > FADC > RH CW > Ultra does decent damage for Fei. Enough to take the lead for sure in most matches. I am not even sure of the oki situation you get from it now that I think about it (though I will check now that we’re on the subject). Playing liquidsnake the other day, he caught me with a straight up Ex Tenshin out of nowhere, because

  1. i thought he was going to Shein me given his two bars
  2. who uses ex tenshin at that range? lol gs snake

It is all a matter of conditioning. First, train your opponent to never expect Tenshin. Frametrap them for Tenshin and hit them with a normal instead. Test throwing them first when you decide it is a good idea for a Tenshin, and play on that loop. Other playertypes will sit there and block you all day.

So, you land a Tenshin. You do combo into flame kick for the quick rise into x-up more than likely…or quick rise into meaty. Or you do combo into rekkas and knock them away from you getting nearly no oki outside of risky fierce rekka or RH chickenwing forced block. There is no quickrise vs a normal throw. Weigh the overall risk/reward. What will allow you to loop a guessing game as much as possible?

just thinking out loud for discussion


#8

yeah, thats why i left the set up section blank for now.

i think going for tenshin only poses as much risk as going for a normal throw if the setup is good enough. the difference is that its non techable, and can go for good damage. we should be looking to insert 3 frame blocked jabs, and not looking to land naked 12 frame tenshins

when i do start to actually put the set ups in, i will try to add risk/reward, what your opponent may be thinking, and possible mindgame alternates. a mixup without the ability to go in a different direction is only a gimmick. so good idea judge


#9

Troubles I come across with Tenshin set-ups are against reactionary ‘option-selecters’ (the kind of player that mashes option select at throw range). You can risk a Flame Kick against them, but without 2 bars to cancel, it poses a highly risky and very unrewarding situation.

What I’d like to see is a set-up that utilizes the enhanced range of EX Tenshin to stay out of throw range and deceive the other player. I see some set-ups listed that suggest using two light attacks into Tenshin, but I’d like to see someone really dig deep into getting max range out of this move. I don’t know how effective this might be, but HNIC Mike found one with his Throw> f+MK> Tenshin set-up. I believe that using Tenshin at max range can improve the chances of landing it against certain characters or player types.


#10

Hmmm, Love the move, its what really sold me when I first found out about it I have tried to work it into my game, what I have found is weirdness and unpredictability (which is what we want to get rid off) Here are a couple of things I like and don’t like, no real order just thoughts

  1. Sweet move and it looks good, and resets damage
  2. Know when to use, not a very good random masher
  3. Very good against crouching turtles
  4. Not very good against all out dp mashers
  5. Best move in the game when you are in a super close match an nobody wants to make a mistake
  6. Use it on blocked jump in only after you have Flamekicked them a few times out of there blockstrings (since they get wise to that and stay crouched and blocked)
  7. A little more dangerous…but on wake up if they are waiting for you to Flamekick

I am practicing the rekka interrupt (against Ryu/Ken/Sagat/Akuma it might be more dangerous cause of mashed uppercut )


#11

^^^you will only want to interupt one time in a match. after that, they will be looking for it. so make it count and save it for when its really worth it


#12

Atlast, great thread mike

(hit) cl.mp xx mk cw, (blocked) s.lp xx ex tenshin
[opponent in corner] (blocked) lvl2 fadc, s.lp xx ex tenshin
(blocked) flame kick fadc, s.lp xx ex tenshin

Your able to do (blocked) flame kick fadc, tenshin and theres a very small window for the opponent to hit you with a normal. You could walk up and do cl.lp xx tenshin but still its risky due to option select mashers


#13

What is the fear in trying to interrupt cl.s.jab into Tenshin?

cl.s.jab > cl.s.strong > sweep

cl.s.jab > cl.s.fierce > MK CW

This thread adds strength to Fei’s baits. Good stuff Mike. I want to come back and read the other posts later when I have more time.


#14

iirc it doesnt reset damage… if you combo into it through say a crumple it will add to the multiplier just like any other move… i was pissed when i found that one out.

but yeah i know what you mean by reset… just didnt want people to be confused…

also i DO like cr.lp xx tenshin… but the problem is that if the jab hits it will wiff… plus it has to be done EXTREMELY close to the opponent in order to be effective if doing a normal tenshin… how do you guys deal with that… only use the ex version?

also about fei in general… it seems to me that he has some BIG problems with people that just walk backwards… his sweep has no range, cr.mk is pitiful for trying to take advantage of a high block, rekkas are unsafe, overhead gets blocked, his throw has no range, and tenshin gets walked out of…

my opponents have started to just walk backwards while sometimes throwing out a dp/fireball etc. then air hurricane kicking/whatever get out of jail free card they’ve got and just repeat the process ad infinitum…

how do you guys deal with this shit… i dont have nearly so much problem with any other non fireball character cause of long ranged sweeps /lows that can be canceled out of…

-dime


#15

oh regarding his crouching pokes, c.mk is very handy but if you want to have a better reach use c.mp or c.hp, they can be a dangerous frame trap, shotos are going to need to be extra careful cause reversal srk can hit fei but fei doesn’t always need to poke everytime, once srk whiff, then free combo for you close range i suggest hp, mk flame kick (260 damage) or hp,ex flamekick (300 damage) or you can ultra or combo into super, if far way you can use the bnb to rekkas (this deal less damage but good to put your opponent into the corner plus damaging your opponents moral which can lead to your tenshin setups)

also against non masher or reversal during wake up, you can actually do a lk/lp or c.lp or c.lk just as the opponent waking up and it will whiff then tenshin or ex will caught them as they are back on the ground

so the first attack will miss (this to throw them into guard mode even though they are on the wake up animation) then tenshin will connect (cause they are back on the ground)


#16

Yeah it’s sad…people just need to walk back or jump back to avoid any kind of mixup Fei has. =(


#17

:tup:


#18

true, but good players won’t just do a srk after the air tatsu, cause they know if whiff then its a free combo

also it depends on the air tatsu and your spacing you can actually punish them as they land because most will tend to do a quick air tatsu to escape the corner thus there is no more spin on their way down


#19

That’s the thing: observing what your opponent likes to use as a defensive maneuver and trying to capitalize on it. The toughest match-ups seem to be the players who play turtle and mix up their options while defending:

-if they like to just block, they get thrown or you get to continue your pressure by constantly going into lvl2focus or short walk up jab, etc…

-if they like to jump out and/or if they like to hold back and walk out, you HAVE to link your low shorts and snag your link into low jab for the rekka; if you are out of the rekka range, then just rekka anyway to be back on top of them…frame traps with non-lows work well for hitting out of jump frames, but walking back tackles all non-low frame traps

…also, using strings to push them into x-up range and then going for the x-up is another option: low short x 2/3, x-up; if they don’t try to anti-air you given this short reaction range, the worst case scenario is usually they jump back and into you with an air-2-air, or you have to respond with the air reset

…incorporate RH cw into your strings to get back on top of them; you’re not looking for the combo so you’re not using MK CW…you just want the re-gained distance and the +0 on recovery

-i hate backdash…anti-backdash tactics are MUCH tougher to put into play and usually give you little reward and high risk…thankfully, Fei can do rekka and beat backdash AND get knockdown for it. thing is, reacting to backdash is a pain in the butt. if you don’t catch it fast enough to rekka it, then stay hungry and just purely jump-in given their backdash recovery and re-pressure…if you waited a little too long, then you might not want to given the risk of getting hit with an obvious anti-air


#20

After a stun depending on your opponent you can get away with tenshin x2 to get rid of the scaling.