This feels so wrong

Keeping it short, long time fighting game player, but have avoided capcom fighters like the plague. Tried my hand at SF4 when it came out, didn’t enjoy it and had nobody to play with. Same deal with super, and AE on release. Picking it up for PC about 3 days ago, I took a liking to Makoto, learned some basics, but nothing makes sense during matches. I can’t jab people out of throws, my command grab never seems to connect even if I’m point blank, I don’t feel strong enough when it comes to pressure, and it feels like my only strength is the fact that I can cancel into an overhead, which can even be interrupted if I do it off of any normal that isn’t a H button. What on earth do I do? Or, what do I NOT do? (And I’m serious about jabbing out of throws, that shit seems so stupid right now.)

What other fighting games are you coming from?

Mostly guilty gear and KOF, no particular mains on each, I tend to enjoy playing the whole cast at an average level rather than sticking to one, so I’m familiar with a number of mechanics that are present in SF.

Rock, paper, scissors my friend. Throw beats jab, most definitely when you’re right next to each other. You need to tech it. You could also backdash if you have the space.

As for the command grab thing, I’m not a Makoto player and this isn’t going to be really helpful, but you’ve got to be doing it wrong.

Not really rock paper scissors, then, since throw beats block too. I’m far too used to the style of punching someone in the chest if they go for the grope.

It’s just figuratively speaking. Throws beat blocks, block beat attacks and SOME attacks beat throws. Some moves are unthrowable in their start up. You could attack low knocking them down or pushing them away with a low attack. It will also be dependent on your spacing and the moves start up frame properties.

Well, sometimes it’s Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock…Like when you’re playing vs. Akuma.

Hello, do you know what crouch teching is? If not i reccomend you check it out, try searchibg for crouch tech and vesper arcade on youtube. Makoto can actually kara her command throw, its quite hard for beginners. But its something to practice. Kara is cancelling the starting frames of a normal into a throw or a special, and thus increasing the range. Feel free to keep on asking, if you want to keep a monlouge going. Good luck.

Not understanding why you are wanting to move down to the bad tier of fighting games when you play KOF

You’re right, you can’t jab throws. In SF4, throws hit on the third frame. That is much faster than in Persona. Unlike Guilty Gear, your opponent does not have throw invincibility on wakeup or immediately following a hit or block. Therefore, a well-timed tick throw will beat anything that’s not throw invincible (like a reversal, or a jump, or a backdash). Unlike Guilty Gear, the tech window for SF4 is moderately large, so you can just crouch block and tap :lk: and :lp: to tech throws. This can be punished, but it’s a strong strategy. Seriously, just tech the throw. If it’s a command grab, you can usually neutral jump out and punish with a jump-in combo. Or be safe and backdash.

What happens? They can jump or backdash out of your command grab. You cannot grab someone in blockstun, so you can’t just cancel normals into karakusa to grab them. Your command grab will whiff. Good karakusa setups are -> hk karakusa, s.hp xx hayate feint -> hk karakusa, s.lp -> karakusa, -> karakusa, Tsurugi (air axe kick) -> karakusa, and so on.

EX Karakusa has armor. Makoto’s hk command grab is slow enough to jab her out of it, so you can just use EX karakusa instead to blow them up for it. Or you can take advantage of their button presses by frame trapping with -> Seriously, is one of the best normals in the game.

Just like Guilty Gear, you need to condition an opponent to sit still before you can mix them up. With SF4, that’s usually with frame traps. Makoto’s is her best frame trap option (although s.hp xx hayate feint leads to more damage). Just doing -> instant air (not even Tiger Knee) mk Tsurugi is great, it can catch jumps and backdashes, which lets you follow up with EX Hayate.

Your EX Oroshi (overhead) has massive invincibility, enough to make hp uppercuts whiff right through it sometimes. Your hp overhead is very slow, yes. That’s why you need to know strings to stop people from hitting buttons. Also, the lp overhead is faster.

Just do strings like cr.hp. The cr.hp will combo if the second one counter-hits. If they block the two’s just dash up and karakusa them, or kara karakusa, or tk tsurugi. Or get closer with Or do a focus attack and dash in.

If someone’s hitting you with reversals, learn to block and punish.

[quote=“Kikuichimonji, post:10, topic:162096”]

and unlike Guilty Gear, you can throw someone out of blockstun.

Er. So which is it? I’m honestly confused.

Or are the rules different for normal throws vs command throws?

No. In SF4, as soon as leave blockstun, you’re fair game. In Guilty Gear (and Marvel 3 I believe) there is throw invincibility even later than your blockstun. This allows people to either counter-throw or just do a fast normal to hit you out of a tick throw. However, because this extra throw invincibility isn’t present in SF4, trying to jab someone out of a good tick throw won’t work.

Sorry that wasn’t clear.