This game would be better without HD/NeoMax Combos


#1

Let me first say that I’ve been loving KoFXIII since I started playing it not too long ago (beginning of May.) I’ve been trying to learn as much as I can and have been working on putting together the best team I can.

 But after playing a couple months, the one thing I can say I still really dislike about the game are the HD/NeoMax combos. They take a title with an amazing footsies game, perfect pace, and a well balanced roster and turn it into some Marvel-ized version of KoF where everyone can do a ToD or near ToD combo if they have enough meter and can set it up with the right move should their opponent make a single mistake. I think it's stupid that if I come in with a fresh character and get caught ONCE by the opponent, that character is as good as dead, and all I can do is watch while they juggle, cancel, and NeoMax them across the screen. Sure the combos take skill to perform, but wouldn't it take MORE skill to actually have to, you know, beat my character WHILE I CAN STILL CONTROL THEM?

It's also a matter of pretty much HAVING to utilize them if you want to be any good at the game. Even if I want to just play without them, the game pretty much makes it clear that there is a best way to do things and that way is by using HD/NeoMax Cancel combos. The fact that the timer moves as fast as it does makes that perfectly clear. Which is disappointing because as I said, the footsies game here is probably the best of any of the titles of this generation of fighters IMO. To me it's more fun to win with fast paced footsies going than it is to juggle/cancel/Max my opponent to death.

And before anyone comes in saying "You only hate them because you can't do them," I can do them. It's not an issue of not being able to do them, it's an issue of, why would a game that does SO many things well feel the need to add in such a silly mechanic.

I'm sure that another rebuttal will be something along the lines of, "Well, every character can do it, so..." Every character can X-Factor, but does that make it a good mechanic?

 I guess what I'm asking is, am I the only one who feels like KoFXIII would be a better game without HD/NeoMax combos? I'm not trying to sound like a scrub, like I said, I genuinely love this game, but I wish they would keep Marvel outta my KoF.

UMvC3 Stream & Commentary Thread v2
#2

There’s only one way to be sure. Play the game and make sure both players never use HD combos or Neomaxes for an entire set.


#3

They’re a double-edged sword. Sure, you can land a ton of damage if you get an HD combo, but you run the risk of dropping the combo. It’s even risky to activate because you might drop the tight link that’s involved in starting the combo in the first place. I have trouble doing them and I’ve been practicing for a while, but I’m not going to hate on them because I can’t do them yet. It’s really hard to say if the game would be better without them. At my level I can’t say they would be because I don’t ever land them, and I don’t play against people that can do it yet either, so to me it’s a game without them.


#4

didn’t KOF2002 have something similar?


#5

I do feel using them is of great benefit and depending on team composition and who you’re up against, yeah, you should be looking to use them. But I disagree with the line about ‘having to use them.’ Take this last EVO for example. A lot of the top 8 were burning drive meter to extend normal combos. Or using lots of meter for EX moves so that when they did activate HD they wouldn’t even have 2-3 meters for their Neo Max.

I actually love the dynamic they bring. Do I save for HD? Are they saving for HD? Ok they’re fully loaded, time to change up how I’m playing.

To me, they’re like the proper way to do “Ultras”. They require hit confirms, execution (Though some HD/Neo Max combos are pretty dang easy). They’re so satisfying to land and fun for others to watch. And since it is a team based game, it’s really only going to be used once, mayyybe twice in an actual match.


#6

Couldn’t have said it better. For ToD combos, most characters require 4-5 bars and there are many where the situation will not even allow 100% (activating off lows for example, the more common way of catching players in an HD, usually does not give 100%). If you really want to utilize that you have to play 2 rounds sacrificing your EX tools, DMs, GC Rolls/GC CDs and drive cancels. Your meter is an investment and you can burn it evenly throughout matches or save it all for the end. If you HD you’d better not fuck up because if you do that’s your entire drive bar gone plus whatever meter you spent in the HD.

Comparing HD to X-Factor is silly. One takes hitconfirms and high levels of execution to utilize and the other doesn’t.


#7

You shouldn’t have been hit then. If you were determined enough to win by using the game engine you would also be using HD and NeoMax to beat your opponent. There has to be some point where you aren’t in control of the fight, you had ample opportunity to be in control of the fight before you were hit.

Laban would most likely agree with you, at least to some degree.

This isn’t Turbo, fighting games are no longer based entirely on footsies, zoning and mixups, this also isn’t Marvel because X-Factor is a comeback mechanic, it is a mechanic BEYOND using meter management. By that definition KOF doesn’t really have a comeback mechanic

The whole purpose of HD and NeoMax is to make the combos and fighting even more FUN.


#8

This. People are putting to much importance or emphasis on saving meter and drive for that “big HD combo”.


#9

I understand what you’re saying and to a certain point I agree, especially with the “How should I spend my meter” part of it. I guess I feel like they bring in an aspect of risk that doesn’t (at least in my mind) make the game any better. It’s basically like Tekken 5 or Marvel where you just sit there and watch your character get juggled across the screen until they die. I like that they require execution and that HD mode allows for things you can’t do in “normal mode” but watching a fresh character die because they got tagged once by an opponent with a lot of meter seems excessive.

They’re a comeback mechanic in a way, albeit one that takes a bit of skill, but you could outplay your opponent and still get tagged once with an HD/Max combo and lose just like you can with an Ultra in SF4.


#10

neomax combos are dope


#11

So “don’t get hit” is the answer? Bullshit. This is a fighting game, and no one playing is a machine that will be able to see where things are going 100% of the time. I can accept that there will be times when you aren’t in control of the fight, but again, to see a FRESH character get juggled and Maxed to death just because they made one mistake? Even ST wasn’t that brutal. Again, I’m not whining, I’m just questioning whether this is a good mechanic or not.

I realize that there’s more to fighting games than basics these days, but it seems like part of KoFXIII’s appeal is that it’s a little more “retro” (maybe that’s not the right word) than most of the other fighting games this generation. Would the game be any worse WITHOUT the inclusion of of HD/Max combos? Would the game be any less deep even without those options? Even without, I could say it’s still deeper than Marvel or SF4.

And in a sense, HD/Max combos ARE a comeback mechanic. Granted one you have to purposely save meter for, that you don’t get for free, and that takes some skill, but again, you could be down to your last character with little to no life left, against your opponent’s last (but fresh) character, and rather than having to win your way out with footsies, combos, etc, you can just fish for a hit-confirm for big (ToD) damage and win. I think that dumbs the game down to a certain degree even if it DOES take skill and planning to execute.

I don’t really find HD/Max combos fun, but then I don’t really take Marvel that seriously, and while I love Guilty Gear, there are at least Bursts so you have some way of getting out of the combo (to your own cost of course.)


#12

You’re a Marvel player though, so I can see why you’d like them because they cater more to the type of game you play. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but has there been a KoF game that’s come before that’s had a mechanic like this? I’ve played a bunch of them but never at a high level and I don’t ever remember anything like this being in any of the other KoF games.

Another thing too: I could see the point if the game had atrocious balance and certain characters NEEDED a mechanic like this to be able to compete, but by all accounts, KoFXIII is pretty well balanced and most characters can stand up to each other without needing something like this to win.


#13

I play marvel 2, not 3. and soon to be 1 (yay origins!)

XIII is my first KOF, and I haven’t found HD/Neomax combos to be a broken mechanic. Then again, I suck at the game though :frowning:


#14

I was going to take this seriously until I noticed that the OP barely picked up the game in May, and already think he knows enough about the game to give a valid critic of its system :coffee:
Everything you posted exposes how much you suck at the game. Learn it first, and then come tell us what you think.


#15

KOF 2002/2002UM.

I always said OG98 despite it’s flaws had a certain charm to it. That charm was the fighting without CCs and such. My gripe with CCs is that usually characters end up doing worse damage because CCs become the most powerful combos in the game. Honestly I would have liked to see a modern KOF without HD combos at all. Just keep the drive cancels and EX moves.

Neomax’s are a pain in the ass(shout outs to Mai and Kyo) but them I’m okay with because you don’t get it only from being hit. It’s a properly done Ultra system. They don’t ruin the game but in a way they are the worst part of the game. What I do like is that it’s not too hard for everyone to land HDs and use their NM.


#16

“A bit of skill” is a bit dismissive when comparing double qcf ultras in SF4 to an HD combo that that can multiples of that along with all the cancels required to extend the combo. It isn’t like the game does it for you.

I guess that’s fair, but then again the character has a full life bar, and they really should do whatever it takes to win.

It sounds like you wish you were playing a different game, honestly.


#17

It’s a pretty balanced mechanic. If you drop the combo you lose big ressource, if you succeed it’s only one character out of three, and if it’s not their last, you just gave them all the meter to fight back while you are somewhat empty.


#18

I find HD/Max combos to be fun. And, tricky. This is also part of the reason I enjoy KOF 2002 so much as well because it is the same idea (KOF XIII is a “easier” variant though, but still leaves people room to work). HD/Max combos are a nice game mechanic to me, because it also influences the characters potential more so than it would for their regular state - giving you opportunities to customize your characters combo potential. The drive system (should the drive meter be used individual without Neo Max) reinforces this as well, since you are cancelling specials moves into special moves (or supers). Best of all, using it is an optional choice if your HD meter is already full. You can technically get away with any kind of game play but would behoove others to under the mechanic of KOF first (rolls, short hops, super hops, option select throws/throw techs, Guard cancel series, etc…). The only thing the HD does is add more innovation to the players cause. While HD/Max is easy to use, it is tough to master and it will take a good amount of skill to hit confirm and combo/juggle while using Neo Max. It is probably a good way of giving the players extra options that may revolve around mix-ups, mind-games, finishing the match, a some sort of maneuver.


#19

Point to the part of any post I made where I said I was amazing at the game. I’ve been playing a lot and against some excellent players. I’m still learning, but I’ve played enough to have a grasp on the system and give a thought out reason why I dislike one aspect of it. Depending on the game, if you have to play a game for more than a few months to have at least a decent grasp on the game’s system, maybe you need to go back to Head Start. :coffee:

Here’s an idea. Instead of posting a bullshit reply like the one you did, why not make like, oh, EVERYONE ELSE in this thread and post something constructive. Tell me why do you think I’m wrong instead of “Hahahaa u suk @gayme.”


#20

Its because of quotes like this that I can’t take you seriously.
So you’re saying that you can play Third Strike or CVS2 for 3 months, and already know enough about their systems to have a valid opinion about them?
The KOF learning curve takes just as much time as these games.

Learn the game…