Thoughts about throws in this game


#1

I found this interesting read on sirlin.net about his thoughts on the game.

I have no beef with David Sirlin or anything but I personally think throwing in this game is fine as it is. Throws can be landed regularly in a match quite easily and is far from a no-throw game. I think the ability to tech throws used within combos was a smart decision because just getting hit by a throw is actually a start for combo for most characters.

I play a good amount of Tager and I feel that his command throws on counter are not that difficult to get off, and his throws are the best damn thing about him because it furthers your options after getting the throw, allowing for a huge combo. I know that there are unthrowable frames in this game but I feel that after playing Tager a while you get the feel of when the throw will hit, sort of like a sixth sense. I feel the backdash bait and collider buffer make the command throw even more dangerous and is Sirlin’s situation of people jumping out of throws sounds like he is going for attempts at a wrong time.

Anyways what are your thoughts on the throwing in this game. I personally think it’s alright for a game at this pace.

p.s. Please no Sirlin flaming. I have no problem with the guy and it’s not about him.


#2

I see where he’s coming from. As the game is out longer, people will begin hitting their throw tech’s properly. But will it become a no throw game? Nah I doubt it

As a Tao player though… I’d absolutely love 0 frame throws and shorter tech windows, and I can bet Taegar would love the same thing.


#3

Yea true a 0 frame throw would be pretty damn cool and sometimes I feel like they have forever to get that tech.

Well Devil’s Advocate would say if throws were way too easy to land than going for a throw will be too good to pass up because throws often leads to combos, which I know Tager can follow up a lot of his throws with something and I think Tao can off her front throw.

But Yea I feel the same way you do PelvicThrust. People just need time to get used to throws to get a tech but they still play a huge part, so it will be far from a no throw game.


#4

Throw counters work surprisingly well in this game too. Guess Sirlin forgot to mention that.


#5

Actually, that’s what his article is about. He feels that it’s too easy to counter throws, not that it’s too hard.

The ending line in the article is “I wouldn’t want to have to play this No Throws game at Evo” after all.


#6

I think what Altergenesis was saying is that when you get a throw on a counter hit (when the opponent is trying to hit you) the throw is actually untechable.


#7

Sirlin also goes on to say that if your argument for these throws is that they don’t prorate, or lead to big damage - the developers could easily prorate the damage after a throw accordingly to make throws easier to land over all.

Furthermore, Throw counters aren’t what makes a throw good in the first place. A counter almost anything in this game is pretty darn good and can lead to huge damage.

He’s absolutely right about hitstun/blockstun throw tho, they are pretty useless (except for carl, and that is using hitstun throws for reasons other than their intended purpose - an infinate loop). the only time this kind of throw is any good is when people are trying to mash out of being frozen by jin.


#8

oh hurf durf I read it as “Throw counters” not counter throws.

And yeah those are awesome, I absolutely love them.


#9

He acts like throwing is the only damn way to do any decent damage in fighting games, if the opponent is jump attack, jump attack, jump attacking, use any one of the several other attacks at you disposal to hit him instead.

It’s like Sirlin wants throws to just be god mode or something (probably because they are easy to execute)

And I shudder to think what Nu would be like if throws were as good as Sirlin wants them lol.


#10

Sirlin wants to play Street Fighter 2, basically. That’s the only way to reconcile his weird obsession with one-button throws.

He has some pretty good ideas about what’s good in fighting games generally, but he also gets tripped up on a lot of stupid stuff and manages to constantly miss the forest for the trees. His review of Street Fighter 4 (snot a review guys!!) managed to nitpick a lot of dumb stuff without actually delving into the gameplay, I’m not surprised he’s focusing on some weird niche of Street Fighter 4. Even his article on World of Warcraft was just bizarre (in short: World of Warcraft is bad because it teaches people that co-operation is the key to completing big tasks as opposed to doing everything as a lone wolf. I don’t even like World of Warcraft but whaaaa? It wasn’t even a criticism of the gameplay, it was that WoW teaches bad life lessons by making people work together.)


#11

I use Bang Shishigami as sort of a sub and him throwing people with his command throw on block and hit stun does feel useless when it I see them having forever to tech it but seeing the damage on that thing if it actually connects in a combo is pretty crazy. The window on that should be smaller to make it better though.

Maybe the hitstun/blockstun tech window is more of a balance issue though. If that window was too hard, then a lot more pressure strings and combos will end in throws.

I feel throw counters a damn good thing for Tager and making it untechable on counter is a good idea. I managed to catch a good number of people with a backdash to buster. I agree anything on counter is great but what I like about throws in this game is that open up for more damage (so do counter-hits but it’s still a viable option).

Also Nu can followup her throw I believe and I shudder at the thought of Nu having easy throws.


#12

Throws as Sirlin wants them are a good counter to super rushdown type characters and keeps your opponent honest. There’s a reason why Super Turbo has lasted so long as a fighting game.

Throws are NOT god mode if they have 0 frame startup. It wouldn’t be hard to add more recovery on nu’s throws so that she can’t follow up after them, or can’t follow up with nearly as much damage.

Throws as they exist in their purest form, and as their basic model, is to break the defense of a turtle - and to pull an overly aggressive and wreckless attacker off you for good damage.

That’s now how throws work in most games anymore, and have been considerably dumbed down to where they’ve morphed into some unnecessary option for damage.

Does it break the game like Sirlin believes? No, but I think he has a very good point about throws.

Yet nearly all of his concerns about Street Fighter 4 are pretty valid. His article about WoW wasn’t that WoW is bad because it teaches players to work together. His argument was that WoW was bad because it taught players to have a sense of entitlement to everything.


#13

Most games don’t allow you to grab out of hitstun/blockstun in the first place. Making it harder to tech would make it too good. Could you imagine the Rachel rape if you get tagged by frog on BLOCK? Or are forced to block Nu’s sword super?


#14

These are all things that can easily be remedied. What was the point of being able to do it in the first place if it’s worthless, is the point.


#15

While he is right, throws are pretty easy to tech in this game, he completely disregarded counter throws and how deadly they can be. I mean, pretty much every character can pull out a 3,000 damage combo coming from a throw. Even more in the cases of Tager, Ragna, Carl, V-13, and Taokaka. So throws may be a little harder to land but they do a lot more damage than in other games.

Oh god, don’t even get me started on that shit :bluu: One of the few things I agree with Sirlin on.


#16

It’s not about throws doing a lot of damage. It’s about being able to have the option to land them. Sirlin’s whole case is that Throws that don’t do as much damage as they do, but are easy to land is a much better throw system, than a throw that does a lot of damage but is easily avoidable.


#17

If the only viable throws are counter-throws, then that’s the same as saying there are no good throws. Because the only ‘good throw’ in the game is the same as any other poke.


#18

It’s not worthless, though.


#19

I see where Sirlin is coming from with having throws being easier to land with less damage, but I wonder if that will skew the game to much toward offense. BB and GG lend itself to provide defensive options to go on the offensive. The throws as is play a huge part of the offense leading to huge damage, but even if the defender gets the tech, they are both at a neural situation (I know that on tech characters are pushed rather far apart, but characters cover the screen quite fast or manipulate each other to get closer quite quickly).


#20

I didn’t say they weren’t valid, I said that he was missing the forest for the trees. Links and 2 button throws are not the biggest problems with Street Fighter 4, but he spends like half the article talking about them. Button configuration is obnoxious, but all these usability issues are pretty shallow from a guy whose blog is supposed to be about game design and is supposed to be focused on fighting games. Anyone could have written that article.

Similarly, you can’t just take throws completely out of context and draw some weird causation effect wherein games with zero frame one button throws are good and two button slowish throws are bad. It’s just shallow, goofy, and overly reductive. He doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that BlazBlue throws do different amounts of damage, or that BlazBlue has more types of mix-ups than a game like Super Turbo where most characters don’t even have an overhead, or that BlazBlue has guard break mechanics. Is Tager’s biggest problem that his throws are slow? Of course not: again, he’s missing the forest for the trees. He doesn’t address magnetism or the impact of invincible throws or any of the real differences in Tager’s design. From the article, you’d think Tager was Zangief with ~8 frame throws.

And no, his article about WoW really is that silly:

According to Sirlin, the game is bad because of what it teaches the children, and what it teaches the children is:

I started to think "What is World of Warcraft teaching all these kids?"
1. Investing a lot of time in something is worth more than actual skill.
2. Time > skill is so fundamentally bad, that I’m still going to go on about it even though I started a new number.
3. Group > Solo.
4. Group > Solo.
5. Guilds
6. The Terms of Service.

World of Warcraft is bad because it teaches kids to value hard work and co-operation. That is literally the central conceit of that article.

Sorry for the derail.