Thoughts on Button Mapping. Is giving up A1 UNNECESSARY for a dash button?


#1

so i was just watching the season’s beatings footage of fanatiq playing his button mapped msp, and im sure as you all know by now, he must sacrifice his A1 button into P+P to get that setup to work.

its a kind of genius idea, and kind of cheatingish, and kind of respectable at the same time seeing as he must give up free use of assists in order to gain the perfect tri-jump.

BUT, then the idea just came to me that giving up A1 for PP might be entirely unnecessary.

being a basic and pretty shitty msp player myself, i fuck up ALOT OF TRI JUMPS AND PP DASHES.I SUCK. and when i fuck up, i usually get a fierce, air or stand. so what does that mean?

iirc, the game will register PP dash > PP as a FIERCE. what this would mean is that instead of giving up your A1 for PP, it might also work to get rid of FIERCE for PP. im guessing this change would pretty much give full functionality of a basic 6 button control scheme (most of the time) and the added benefit of 1-button-dash.

example: super jump up > (PP BUTTON) > air dash happens > (PP BUTTON AGAIN) > game registers FIERCE.

example 2: c.short > (PP BUTTON) > game registers FIERCE

can anyone test this out? i dont have a dreamcast/ps3/x360 to test it out myself… i also think that giving up JAB might be a valid alternative to getting rid of A1 as well for msp, as jab isnt used too often compared to the other 3 attack buttons.


#2

you cant button map on ps3

and losing fierce means you cant whiff for meter as easy, or 5 fierce. and mashing dash in an addf? ive never even heard of that. just practice your dashes more


#3

did you read my post? i know for a fact that the game option selects LP+HP during an airdash to just a HP. but more specifics, well, i cant test it myself because i dont have a dreamcast. i dont have ps3 or x360 either to even know that button mapping isnt allowed.

i think you should read my post and test on a dc. what im saying is losing assist 1 might be unnecessary to get the one button air dash BECAUSE the game will option select a FIERCE out of a LP+HP anyways depending on the situation.

but i could be wrong. someone please test it out and let me know.

IN THEORY, five fierce would work like this (i would test it out myself but i dont have means): c.lk xx c. PP (game option selects fierce instead of dash because you are using magic series inputs. it also gives you fierce over magic series medium punch because fierce button has higher input priority than a jab button, again in theory at least) xx super jump > HK xx PP (df direction. game option selects air dash because thats what this button is supposed to do now) > PP (this time fierce comes out because you used up your air dash) xx HK > slide


#4

You can’t button map at all on ps3 or 360. The only way is to have macro’s built into your stick/pad… which is against every tourney rule in the book. If it wasn’t everyone would have 1 button ROM…

You CAN button map on DC obviously but not a lot of people still play on DC and those that do are at least into the game enough to learn how to dash effectively.

I will mention that all fanatiq ever got for his shortcuts… was laughed at by a large cross section of the community. Thinking being that if yipes bodies fanatiq strait outta the building (all day)… and fanatiq is the one trying to shortcut… then practice > than shortcuts. End o’story.

None of this even has a point. Hitting two punch buttons at once is very easy…


#5

youd be double tapping a button which wouldnt register fast enough


#6

i dont like it when people talk like they are bigger than people that have accomplished something. fanatiqs team won seasons beatings. i think you should look at yourself and what youve accomplished as a player much more than saying negative things about X or Y top player.

fanatiq has accomplishments. whether or not you respect that, you cannot deny he has accomplishments. and in fact his innovation almost made it into marvel 3 as seth killian was saying that the dev team was looking at an optional secondary control that sacrificed a button for some other function, JUST LIKE WHAT FANATIQ WAS DOING.

the people that shit on other people for doing something new or odd are the same people that dont do anything at all. they sit safely and laugh when others try and fail, but there is no success without trying and failing.

dont criticize until you take a hard look at yourself in the mirror.


#7

did you TEST it?

i really wish i could test this myself though. i know its kind of bullshit to post some random ass theory and want someone else to test it out, but i dont have the means or else i would myself.


#8

I’m kinda in 2 minds as to wether i should post, i’ll edit this later but i’ll post what i tested on DC.
Mapping Hp to PP will let you do the 5 feirce as you described above. You can just do down PP and get a launcher without needing to do crouching Lk.
You can sj airdash and Hp grab, but not Hp throw on the ground.

EDIT - I messed around with this on DC for about 15 min. - mapped both A1 and Hp to PP
Was able to get down PP, sj Hk, d/f PP, Hp, Hk, land Hk
… in corner - on tron. I can’t use a pad for shit but there you go. It’s possible.
You can also do sj PP dash, PP again to get the Hp to come out.
And you can also tag without problems.

I’ll just add that

  • macros are for assholes.
  • Fanatiq is a douchebag who loves the sound of his voice. I have to turn down the sound on matches were he’s spectating - Wes vs Neo and Khaos vs Neo are 2 examples. Maybe you should read some of his posts and how he instigates shit then tries to brush it off.
    Has he done well - yeah - considering giving up a1 isn’t much of a sacrifice for the most important input in the game. Macros are supposed to be banned yet somehow Seasons Beatings and I presume EVO let him.
    It’s not in any way new or creative, and as for respectable - that’s a lonely opinion.

Lastly, getting into an argument where YOUR’E the one asking for input on something you can’t test isn’t smart.


#9

I never talked anything about fanatiq except to state that a large selection of the community doesn’t respect him b/c of 1 button dash. That’s not talking shit… it’s stating facts.

And I agree with Augmint about fanatiq but that’s not really what this dicussion is about. You see buddy… this game is meant to be played with 6 buttons. That’s how it’s made. Can you use button mapping and macros to reduce that down? Yes. Is it in accordance with tourney rules? No. Do other players respect it? No.


#10

my point is, he innovated. in accordance to evo rules. he played within the rules of the game (it allows button mapping) and the rules of evo (allowed button mapping). you cant hate him for him, but he THOUGHT OUTSIDE THE BOX and VIOLATED NORMS to achieve something. you wouldnt diss rosa parks for not sitting at the back of the bus would you?(no fanatiq is not on level with rosa parks, its just an example of violated social norms) well sometimes you have to have courage to do the unpopular thing.

most people dont have the courage to do the unpopular thing. and i have respect for those that do.

@augmint, thanks for testing this for me. i have only one more question… does lightning attack still work? and btw evo UNBANNED MACROS when the community was getting larger. it was very controversial and most people were against it. this was during the time when most of the players (easily a super majority) were guys that had been playing in arcades their whole lives to that point. not this current generation of console grown.

i believe the reason being is that they were trying to accommodate for a new influx of players (who were also known at the time as “pad monkeys”) into the community.

and lastly the argument is about fanatiq. i couldnt test it but i wanted to know whether it worked or NOT and it DID. so i think it would be LESS smart for people to argue whether or not an input method worked or not when they COULD TEST IT but DIDNT.


#11

& Once again - no he didn’t innovate. Evo at that time clearly stated no macros yet he somehow felt above it. Violating norms ain’t a good thing - esp. when he posts that he can use a MAS stick (and beat good players) and that he’s unbeatable on Psx 2 with pad - no mapping. Accomodating pad players and macros are 2 different things. You just don’t seem to get it.

I’m still unsure wether EVO allows macros - I’ll look into this. And I’ll test lightning attack - not near a DC - I’ll post it in the next few days.
You really are way off on the idea of macros - Fanatiq himself has said that its cheap. I don’t wanna harp on the whole thing but read this thread

EDIT - I looked up the evo rules
"All macros available via the in-game controller configuration menu are allowed."
Not sure when it changed.


#12

wrong. absolutely wrong. i would bet you money that you are wrong.

evo allowed button mapping. i think it was 2006 but i could be wrong. fanatiq never broke any concrete rules in regard to button mapping ever. the reason that one button dash happened was because it was a RESPONSE to evo being more lenient on the rules. this was around the time evo was sponsored by yaris. get your facts straight. dont make up lies just cuz youre a hater.

[media=youtube]xQ4Sg-IpOvE[/media]

fanatiq featured at 1:22 with his PAD, which he uses for IN GAME MACRO.


#13

You know what … your perfectly right - I did find a post about 2k6 aftermath that mentioned button mapping needs to go. I’m quite able to admit I’m wrong. Stupid of EVO to allow it. Doesn’t change my opinion of it as cheap. You wanna think of it as innovative or courageous - fine. Lonely opinion.


#14

[media=youtube]_KR98TOorpI[/media]

5:42 for a history lesson.

as for your thoughts on how it is cheap, here is some reading material:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

“The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by *definition *of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.”

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing.html

At least I have my Code of Honor,” a.k.a. “You are cheap!”
This is by far the most common call of the scrub, and I’ve already described it in detail. The loser usually takes the imagined moral high ground by sticking to his Code of Honor, a made-up set of personal rules that tells him which moves he can and cannot do. Of course, the rules of the game itself dictate which moves a player can and cannot make, so the Code of Honor is superfluous and counterproductive toward winning. This can also take the form of the loser complaining that you have broken his Code of Honor. He will almost always assume the entire world agrees on his Code and that only the most vile social outcasts would ever break his rules. It can be difficult to even reason with the kind of religious fervor some players have toward their Code. This type of player is trying desperately to remain a “winner” any way possible. If you catch him amidst a sea of losses, you’ll notice that his Code will undergo strange contortions so that he may still define himself, somehow, as a “winner.”


#15

macros is innovating?

http://z4.ifrm.com/30153/94/0/e5210203/e5210203.png

someone’s never played mvc1 on ggpo

looks like this is turning into a macro v non macro topic, so i wouldnt be surprised is a lock is incoming


#16

I have nothing against fanatiq, but he is somewhat lazy in certain aspects. He is still doing day one sentinel combos in 3 which is kinda sad considering the higher damaging combos are just basic fly-unfly combos. To each their own I guess. If he does well still, good for him.


#17

You do realise Fanatiq himself has said that it’s cheap.

"I will say for the record that YES having button mapping is cheap"
Exact quote. So keep arguing against what I’m saying when he’s directly saying that.

So don’t throw sirlins articles about scrubs around - maybe you should then realise all the top EC players who said its cheap - you wanna call them scrubs? Please do that.

Btw - I tested the Lightning attack input with PP mapping - it doesn’t work. But then i make up lies cos I’m a hater. Maybe you should get someone to test it for you … oh jeez.


#18

“The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition ofplaying to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.”

fanatiq did just that and thats why he pulled himself ahead of the pack at the time. that cant be denied.

you cant deny what he did worked very well. if it worked well its a good idea.


if i could i’d test lightning attack by HOLDING JAB and then pressing PP+LK while jab is held. maybe someone will want to test that.


#19

Sirlins article about winning refers to tactics and playstyles, it ain’t about macros. Theres a big gulf between people who agree with everything sirlin wrote and the no. of players who hate macros - which is essentially what OBD is. Once again, fanatiq has said its cheap in the thread i linked to earlier.
Good luck with someone testing lightning attack for you.

MODS - give this guy the last post then close/lock this thread.


#20

lmao you want the mods to close this thread cuz u mad?

wow you are so presumptuous. you go into a thread that is talking about a theory of buttons and drop how it is cheap and the mods are supposed to close a thread that I OPENED because YOU DERAILED IT.

read the title of this thread: “Thoughts on Button Mapping. Is giving up A1 UNNECESSARY for a dash button?”

i want to know where whether or not button mapping is cheap figures into the thread topic.

are macros bad? are macros good? i dont care. are macros legal when done in game according to evo and seasons beatings? YES. the. end.