Tick throw question


#1

Hey guy, I have a question about tick throws.

Lets say bison versus bison, ticking with stand short. If it is just one stand short, who has the advantage here? Some people say the person on offense has advantage, and some people say that the defender does, or that it is random who wins in that situation.

I always thought that perfectly timed counter throw by the defender should win every time, but I dunno! It seems some tick throw traps are harder to get out of than others


#2

Reversal throw will always win if your throw is in range of the attacker.

http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=175504

The first one.
And the fourth one.


#3

That seems weird to me, that is says that the defender has the advantage, when it really seems like the person on offense does?


#4


#5

If one Dictator does a perfect tick throw, and other player using Dictator does a perfectly timed reversal throw, meaning that they both throw each other on the same frame, the game rolls the dice with who gets the normal attack and who gets the throw. There is no special property to normal throws when done as a reversal off of hit or block stun. So if Honda ticks someone, then does his command throw within his opponent’s normal throw range, and his opponent does a reversal throw, it’s a 50/50 for who will get a throw as long as they both perform the throw command on the same frame.

The only time normal throws have a special property when done as reversals is when they are done after recovery, because after you get knocked down you have an invincible standing frame that you can throw on.


#6

VF4 ladies and gentlemen.

Shattering conventional wisdom.


#7

So you have hard proof that reversal normal throws always beat perfect tick throws?


#8

Beyond it happening whenever you do it in the game ?
No.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?


#9

This issue has been going around and around for so long now, I don’t think anyone can say with any authority whether the defender has an advantage or whether it’s 50-50. I think the only thing the community can agree on saying, is that the attacker does not have the advantage. And unless there is definitive proof or empirical evidence (which I haven’t seen), then the issue of defender having advantage or being 50-50 is not settled yet. When the defender is knocked down, yes, he has an advantage on wakeup, that I agree with. But I’m not so sure about standing tick throws or after a reset. I think it is 50-50, but I could be wrong without empirical proof.

@OP: either the defender has advantage or it’s 50-50, but in either case, the best thing to always do in that situation is to always go for the reversal throw.

And even when it comes to Special throws vs Normal throws, that issue has not been completely settled yet either. I know Thelo did some tests a while back, and proved that Honda’s Ochio can be beat by Dictator’s normal throw. But I would like to see more tests being done, especially vs the other Command throws like SPD and Typhoon. As well as testing all characters’ Normal throws vs the 3 Special throws. Maybe Dictator is the only one that can beat Special throws, who knows? :razzy:


#10

There is no real issue there.
Command throws function the same way any other throw does.
If dictator is in range he will throw you.
The reason Gief and other grapplers have more success throwing you is because good grappler players throw you from outside your throw range.


#11

:wasted::wasted::wasted::wasted:

You really think that people have been playing ST for the last 15 years without knowing this? LOL

A perfect tick normal throw, against a reversal normal throw, in a mirror match, is always 50/50. This has been known for years and years long before HDR came out.


#12

Sure it has.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?


#13

The problem is you watch high level matches, where guys like afrolegends tic you with balrog, it seems he is overwhelmingly at advantage, and even top guys can’t get out.

I understand reversals are hard sure, but they do get it a lot, so I dunno!


#14

LO! Keep changing the subject when you were wrong about tick throws. “Reversal throw always beats a tick throw” LOL! You could attend a million gatherings but you’ll still make stuff up about tick throws? LOL what amazing logic! Can’t argue with that!


#15

You are totally right.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

(Hint: it is pointless to have any argument with VF4. He is simply one of those people who can never own up to being wrong and will simply ignore anything that would challenge his position or show him in a negative light. For you own consideration don’t bother with him.)


#16

Mark it here everyone:

‘reversal throws beat perfect tick throws’ - Shari

Keep the personal attacks up. It means that you are really frustrated that you’ve been called out for making things up about ST’s system when you had no idea what you were talking about. I guess personal attacks mean that you refuse to acknowledge that you just made stuff up about throw properties.

Remember, the Japanese have explored ST pretty thoroughly, they even look at cross ups down to pixels and frames. It’s been known for years that reversal throws against perfect tick throws are 50/50. But I guess Shari gets to rewrite the rules and go as he pleases because he is so amazing.

Gatherings =/= game knowledge by the way.


#17

You are so right VF4 like you always are.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?


#18

Shari there is a reason why the defenders throw after a tick is called a counterthrow and a throw on wakeup a reversal throw.

They are different in nature I believe. On wakeup the game grants you a specific frame where you can do something while still being invulnerable to attacks.

Coming out of blockstun or hitstun however is different. The only way a counterthrow would be able to beat a perfect tickthrow is if the counterthrow is active before the attackers throw. But I believe that in these situation the reversal frame (and message) refers to the very first frame where you come out of block or hitstun and can do stuff again, but are of course also throwable again. But there is no invulnerability connected to it. You recover and are able to do things again on the same frame where your opponent can throw you. So if you counterthrow a perfect tick your throws are active on the same frame meaning a 50/50 chance of the counterthrow winning.

The only way this is true is if there is a single frame of throw immunity after coming out of hit or blockstun. I don’t think that’s the case.

VF4 you have been proven wrong about something too. Don’t be so quick to point the “you don’t know what you’re talking about” finger at people you disagree with. I’ve met and played ridiculously strong arcade players of multiple games who were not free from mistakes in their knowledge, something they made up for with superior skills.


#19

What possible qualifications do you have? How many gatherings have you been to? Don’t you know how to argue in this thread?

Shari quick, someone is disagreeing with you, better start asking him about his gathering attendance.


#20

He has an A+ in biting.