Tiers for obscure games

Damn we should have a thread devoted to matches/combos/gamepkay of obscure/shitty fighters.

I don’t believe in tier list. They are all based on opinion.

Back with a stinker: M.U.S.C.L.E. for the NES. This is another game that’s depressingly easy to figure out.

Movement is okay (movement in all directions, jumping left/right), but there’s only like two attacks. You’re aiming to get a knockdown, since there’s no blocking–guaranteed followups everywhere. It happens to be very easy to get a knockdown, as literally every attack does so. As you get low on health, you begin to walk incredibly slowly, making defeat all but certain. This makes speed critical, since getting behind the opponent or reaching your corner to tag is way easier. The special ball, once thrown, goes in the direction of the underdog–be sure to position for this, whether to maximize your advantage or to turn around a bad match (specials deal a shitload of damage and heal the recipient).

Characters are extremely similar, only differentiated by movement speed (in three tiers), attack damage (in three tiers), and special setup. Specials all deal the same damage (approx. 3 uses will KO, save for one), so any that don’t require maneuvering around the opponent have an advantage. Characters listed in approximate order within their tiers:

S - Warsman, Buffaloman
A - Robin Mask, Ashuraman
B - Ramenman
C - Terryman, Kinnikuman
D - Geronimo

Warsman: With the fastest walkspeed, high damage, and a lightning-fast fullscreen special, Warsman is indisputably the best.
Buffaloman: Third fastest, high damage, and another ranged rush special. Barely a downgrade from Warsman.
Robin Mask: Same speed as Buffaloman. Average damage, and his special requires being behind the opponent. The drop from the S tier to A tier is pretty severe.
Ashuraman: Second fastest to Warsman, but low damage and another special that’s done behind the opponent. Consider him a variant of Robin Mask.
Ramenman: Fourth fastest, low damage. Has a long-range rush special, but it oddly requires jumping first–and in this game, whiffing a jump kick or rope attack deals damage to you. This means a knockdown and potentially losing the whole match, so while Ramenman has decent statistics he puts a lot on the line.
Terryman: Fifth fastest. High damage, but his poor speed and awkward special leave much to be desired.
Kinnikuman: Suguru should have trained harder: the second-slowest character, with average damage and a special done from behind. Definitely shouldn’t be your first choice (how fitting).
Geronimo: I feel bad for Brocken fans. Not only was he replaced by Geronimo in the US version, he’s the worst character in the game by far. The slowest character in the game, with low damage and a terrible special. Even though it gives him a projectile, it can only shoot left or right, and the damage is pitiful. There are so many things going against this character it’s not even funny.[/details]

The funny thing is, despite the paper-thin strategy and borked character balance, it’s still possible for someone like Geronimo to beat Warsman thanks to the outrageously one-sided design of the combat.

  • the longsword hitbox when paired against wise stance weapons is a joke afte the initial strike begins.
  • tony can do everything that the ninjas can do and has better weapon/stance combinations than either red shadow or stalker.
  • talkign about the longsword, highwayman(lotus) has the best moveset in the entire game including the <+O,O backstep lunge which is redicultous.
  • the gun characters are a joke. outrunning their shooting with ninja run is fine but u can also parry bullets…with any character in the game. on top of that, if u swipe the reload arm the match is pretty much over.
  • the game is far from being clear cut since the majority of it revolves around parry retorte system and the hit collision is so busted up. clean hits on anyone with a pulse is very rare / random so the backstabs you describe are unrealistic measure of how good a character is.

Yeah, I realized after a while that anything in this game can be parried, including backstab.

Disregard my tier list. This game is whack.

So I’ve got a couple of obscure games that haven’t been put through their paces…

Maybe someone remembers Battle Capacity, which I put out a few years ago.

It had a very small, but dedicated, playerbase, and a hazy concept of its tiers were developed, but nothing most people could ever agree on. If you like, you might have fun exploring the characters and developing a tier list. There were patches maybe two or three times a year (as new characters were added) and since the final patch in 2013, I’m fairly convinced my test team and I have put together a super differentiated but balanced roster!

Then there’s this more [overtly Pokemon-y game](Leaving this Pokemon fighter on the curb This was more a joke that kind of grew into a hobby. Since BatCap, I’d developed a real addiction to creating fighters and what started as some ironic spritework of the Hitmons became a 20+ character game.

The sounds and stages aren’t really developed, but the characters are fully fleshed out. Unlike Battle Capacity, this one was never put through any competitive rigours. There’s likely a lot of stupid shit since I was just out to make something fun but never got any feedback. Maybe you can sort out a tier list because you’re actually really good at identifying the traits that make or break a fighter in a bubble?

online play exists for both oc…

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Tier list for Dong Dong Never Die?

Tiers for Double Dragon V:

Jaguar Version

SNES Version
A-Sekka, Dominique, Icepick
B-Everyone else

This game doesn’t favour regular projectile use. The name of the game is normals, and in that respect the Lees dominate. MP is an incredible poke, easily among the longest in the game. It’s fast, too, so it’s great for tagging people out of projectile startup and all sorts of other stuff. Their cr.HP is like a Mexican Uppercut on crack, and alongside HK their anti-air game is strong–anyone hoping to jump over MP is sorely mistaken.
Additionally, the SNES version’s dizzy timers work strangely; this greatly benefits the Lees. Their j.HP has a large downward hitbox and is difficult to anti-air, and j.HP, HK is a guaranteed dizzy. This will guarantee another j.HP and will continually redizzy. Some good buttons and the redizzy make the Lees crazy good. Their main downside is their throw, as it takes ages to recover (and this downside is exacerbated in the corner). Throws in general aren’t very good here, and the Lees get the worst of it. They have a projectile and Dragon Spin goes over lows, but they’re not great either.
Sekka and Dominique benefit from fast movement, good anti-air, and guaranteed throws from hit or blockstun (Dominique’s bite throw does craploads). The SNES version’s frame data and air reset system allow Dominique to anti-air with MK directly into cr.HK for a CE Dhalsim-style juggle. Other characters can do this, but Dominique’s is among the stronger examples. Icepick is like a ghetto Lee with worse buttons, better zoning and a possible corner redizzy.
Of the lower tiers, Countdown gets an honourable mention for having a strong throw. It launches the opponent very high, allowing time for easy-peasy meaty j.HK tick throws in the corner.

Genesis Version
Still in flux. Of the three versions, this one’s probably the best. Dizzy timers seem better (no redizzies), frame data is a bit better (some links are easier), controls are smoother (unwieldy inputs aside, it’s easier to use projectiles), and blockstun is…totally screwy. Unlike the other versions, there is no fixed blockstun: any attack can be blocked for just the first active frame of an attack, giving this version a somewhat primitive parry system. Thanks to these ‘parries’, multi-hit attacks are more useful (forcing the opponent to parry each hit), and projectiles are more useful to impede their approach. Throws also become more useful as a result.
Some quirks from the SNES version are absent here, like Countdown’s high-flying corner throw.

Awesome to know the differences between the GEN and SNES versions. They are not like TMNT TF differences different games) but enough to warrant a look. I had lots of vs play when I got it on release but really disliked the Jab shenanigans with Sekka, and yes I remember the Lees re dizzies, and in factm other variation is J.HP, C.HP (2 hits) repeat.

Was the Jaguar one that shitty? Never played it. But the youtube vids give me the impression of a MORE shitty collision detection.

EDIT: NVM about the JAG verson, really LOL


Yeah the Jag version’s a hunk of ass.

Sekka’s jab is good, but her s.LK is just outrageous. If she works you to the corner it’s bad news bears (and she has a special like Raiden’s flight that gets you there fast). As for the Lees, I couldn’t get j.HP, cr.HP to dizzy consistently. Still good.
Countdown may be worth putting higher on a GEN tierlist–the looser windows for specials make his zoning and anti-air 214HP way more effective.

That video reminds me: another thing going for the Genesis version is walkspeeds, or more accurately a reduction to them. The difference between forward and backward walkspeed is much more severe in the SNES version. Forward walkspeed is just stupid fast, making approaches super basic when combined with the crappy zoning. The GEN forward speed is reduced a bit.

(Another quirk in the SNES version: Icepick’s throw has big knockback unless you’re in the corner. But if you connect with an attack first–like cl.MK–the knockback is practically doubled. Zero clue why.)

Just about the only thing going for the SNES version is the soundtrack–but at least it’s not on the Jaguar.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that mixups are a non-factor in determining character strength, on account of the tick throws, zero reversals and near-total lack of overheads. This is one of “those” games, where a late jump-in can hit low and some mids hit low in their early hitboxes or vice-versa. Down-backing mitigates this, as does the GEN version’s parries. Only SNES Countdown has anything going on in that department, and even then only in the corner, particularly against Bones.

Thx for the post, and yes, in fact, the redizzy I did on those days was FIRST J.FP, C.HP then your variant (J.FP, FK). SOrry for that, it as a long time ago.

This game has absolutely no cancles/2 in 1 right? I just booted it up on an emulator and quick compared the 3 versions, I really never knew about the zero block stun on the Gen version. Its really like a different game. Reminded me of Killer Instinct 1 (both arc and snes).

I remember that the charge back f+P Lee proyectiles are weird to get, so you HAVE to go charge back, foward, NEUTRAL then P.

Also only MP/MK are throw buttons?

I love Trigger Happy in this game, his DP looks vicious and CPU does a Flame Punch thing that seems an always sure AA.

EDIT: There was a no dizzy code for this game haha I remember we used it sometimes when playing.

EDIT 2: LoL this game had fatalities XD

Any tier list for Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game arcade version?

Sadly, no. It really puts the kibosh on using specials, especially when they’re so awkward in the first place.

These oddities are more pronounced in the SNES version. The GEN version actually has a remarkable amount of input storing. Try it with Countdown’s 214HP–he can enter 214, walk back nearly half screen, press HP and still get it. You can also buffer 214 in the animation to do them back-to-back. His air coverage is really good thanks to 214HP and 632HK, and the GEN version’s controls make it easier for him to use them.

Character-specific, but yeah. Usually MP, sometimes MK.
EDIT: Icepick can use MP or HP. Why? That’s a good question.

His DP has really good startup (I swear up and down he can link into it in the GEN version), but its value is dependent on the game. In the SNES version it’s worse because air resets end up much closer–depending on button strength and anti-air height he can end up at a disadvantage. In the GEN version, air resets knock you back nearly full screen, which makes his HP version’s damage worth it. His Blanka-style electricity might be a really good way to mess up parry attempts. Trigger Happy is one of the few characters where putting points into Special could actually be useful.

By ‘flame punch’ I’m guessing you mean 214MP–that flaming backfist thing. At the right distances, it’s a great poke and anti-air (and since it’s a special, it can do savage damage), but the best anti-air in the GEN version is probably blocking. Block any aerial for a frame and respond with any attack you choose. Makes the GEN version more interesting, since empty-jump throws are a counter to anti-air parries.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that specials in the SNES version with no difference in button strength are often confined to one button on the GEN version.

I only remember that Akuma is tops because of his infinite(s?) and strong projectile game. In tournament play I see a lot of Honda, Sagat, Blade, and Zangief, so I assume at least one of them is decent.

I have seen some Japan matches wch are pretty crazy. Balrog and Akuma seem pretty strong, specially Rog wich seems to dominate with 2 or 3 moves alone


Man you are hyping me with all this info! ilove obscure fighters damn.

Tiers for Mighty Morphin’ Power Rangers on the Genesis. I’ve been sitting on these for a while, and it shows. I’ll probably edit this at some point.

Here’s the general overview: this is a two-button fighter. Light normals can be canceled, but combos aren’t a given. There are no throws, so taking out a down-backing opponent is down to chip damage. Conveniently, many normals and specials are plus on block. Every character can backdash, but more importantly, they can run, aiding in pressure. Everyone has a 6AB ‘deflect’ move to counter projectiles.
Characters are divided between Ranger-sized and Monster-sized (which includes the Megazords). If a Zord is picked, the Rangers can’t be selected, and if a Ranger is selected the Megazords are similarly locked out–which limits the number of potential matchups in a cast of 12. The secret 13th character, Evil Green Ranger, can be used at either size class, but Green/Evil Green lock each other out. There are no mirror matches.
For now, I’ll split the tiers between size classes to reduce the headache in determining individual matchups:

Ranger Tiers
A-Jason, Tommy
B-Kimberly, Zack
C-Trini, Billy

[details=Spoiler]These tiers are really close together since they share the same template–every Ranger has a universal 236A/B gunshot, but it sucks. Otherwise, their only differences are in special moves and jump height. Chip damage, safety, and combo ability are the only things that really can separate them.

Jason has a plus-on-block Jaguar Kick with great speed and screen coverage. Combined with a comboable power sword, he covers the bases nicely. Tommy has a low-to-high-profiling Tiger Knee-alike with similar benefits on block. His version of Honda’s hands offers decent chip and pushback on block, but Tommy has to make do with chip–not much in the way of combos. Evil Green Ranger is slightly weaker, trading a special for a crappy DP.

Kimberly is arguably equal to Tommy–her arrows are high-risk/reward, and her Jaguar Kick is a fast high-profiling combo tool similar to Jason’s. Sadly, her jump is just ridiculously high, reducing her ability to get over certain attacks without eating damage. Zack has chip and plus frames on Hurricane Tackle, but is easily swept out of his spin attack.

Trini’s Tiger Crasher is an astoundingly strong cross-up–especially against the Monsters–but against the Rangers it totally fails to hit them crouching. Her Psycho Crusher is awkward and difficult to combo with, lacking a hitbox up close. Huge recovery, too. Billy has a rudimentary Flash Kick and poking game with his lance specials, but his charge times and long recovery limit his potential.[/details]

Monster Tiers
A-Madam Woe, Cyclopsis
B-Minotaur, Megazord
C-Dragonzord, Goldar

[details=Spoiler]The Monsters are, fittingly, a more eclectic bunch.

Madam Woe is really interesting. She has a good run, but a terrible backdash. An air fireball with instant recovery and loose height restrictions–but an agonizingly slow jump. Long range attacks–often with excruciating recovery. She’s capable of a tricky zoning game, synergizing with her ice breath (which pushes back really far on block). Her 5A has great speed and reach, so she’s not a one-trick pony. I’m probably overrating her, but I think in the right hands she could be a real handful. Cyclopsis is a lot simpler: [4]6B all day long to get in for free and deal chip. His other specials are really unsafe projectiles, but his decent normals and easy approach make him miles ahead of the other Zords.

Minotaur’s not bad. He’s alarmingly fast, but his approach is pants–unlike Cyclopsis, [4]6B is hilariously unsafe. [2]8A/B is like Honda’s Sumo Smash combined with FFS Raiden’s tackle–slow, with mucho invincibility. The two versions can allow for cross-up shenanigans on wakeup, but it’s otherwise easy to dodge or punish. If he gets a life lead, he’s a lot better. His anti-air is decent, and Yoga Flame keeps the pressure on. Megazord is basically only here because it can combo stuff into 46A and has a great aa on 28A. Megazord’s movement and blockstun seem somehow…fatter? It fights more like a SamSho character or something.

Dragonzord is slow and awkward, but its missiles cover a really interesting angle that’s hard to get in on. Its version of TAP lacks invulnerability, but makes for a good counterpoke. Goldar has essentially zero useful specials besides his DP, limiting his ability to chip, and his hitboxes suck royally–cl.A doesn’t hit a croucher for shit. He basically has to fish for 5B all day long.[/details]

As always, I’ll be needing to investigate these more closely–since I haven’t put much time into crossing the streams there’s almost nothing but theory here.

EDIT: Damage is really low in this game–chip is important, but when it’s this low matches really drag. I like setting Game Level to 8 in config to speed things up by a shitload.

Karnov has a move I’ve seen in some videose where he does his d+HK (ground body slide), but he also teleports to the enemy. Do you know how to do this?

EDIT: The mechanics are detailed here, but the tiers are outdated. Read further on for a clearer analysis.

So now I’m working on some tiers for Cosmic Carnage. This game is fascinating. From the weird pre-Rumble Fish animations, to crouch-walking, to the armour system, it’s shockingly intricate. Plays pretty well, too, if you can deal with its trademark slowdown. Standard mixups, throws, juggles, fireball/DP and cancels are here in full force (though they must be done rather late–it’s a strange sensation).

Characters come in two flavours: Soldier, or Fugitive. Soldiers can select different pieces of armour to mix up normals/specials and reduce chip–but if damaged enough, lose the armour (and their specials with them). Fugitives have no armour, so they always take chip, but can’t lose any moves.

A word on mechanics: there are no overheads, but there is a way to hit crouchers with standing normals. When you crouch in this game, there’s a brief pre-crouch period (and while-standing); this applies to crouch-walking as well. During this period, you can’t block–if you were blocking low and stay blocking low, you’ll recover from blockstun immediately into pre-crouch and become momentarily vulnerable. This, in effect, allows any high attack to operate as an overhead. One can avoid this by switching to high guard during blockstun, but this of course leaves you open to lows. Pretty swank stuff for the time.
EDIT: This quirk applies to standing guard as well, but the timing for this vulerable gap changes slightly depending on the normal and the characters in question. It’s not 100% guaranteed, as far as I can tell, but it sure does make corner pressure scarier.
EDIT II: This quirk also applies to landing from an air reset. Anti-airs hurt a lot.
EDIT III: This game has ‘sticky’ recovery: trying to attack too fast when switching from crouching to standing (or vice-versa) will cause a normal of your current elevation to come out instead. This can affect punishes, and is probably a side effect of the quirk mentioned above.

Cosmic Carnage Tiers
A-Naruto, Cylic, Zena-Lan
B-Deamon, Tyr
C-Yug, Talmac, Naja

For the sake of notation, I’ll define Arm/Body/Leg options with Light/Heavy shorthand, like HHL or LLH.

[details=Spoiler]Naruto: If every character were like Naruto this game would be wild. He’s the only character who can dash, but it operates in an unorthodox manner: he can do it forward and backward, in the air and diagonally upward. He can’t do it into normals, but it recovers instantly if he reaches the opponent. It also counts as a special move! This means he can pressure with normals, cancel them into the instant dash for more pressure, the upward dash for sorta-instant overheads, or extend combos by dashing out of recovery. It gives him outrageous corner potential, huge mobility, and all sorts of nasty stuff. He’s a blast. Currently, I find his best configuration to be HHL–Heavy Arm DP rounds him out more nicely than Light Body’s spin kick, and more armour is a plus. Light Legs give him good ground combo potential. LHL is okay, too, as 6326P fills out his otherwise-vacant zoning options.
EDIT: Heavy Body gives him 646C/Z, which is essentially an unblockable that knocks the opponent fullscreen. If you use Light Arms he can go back to zoning, or you can just dash in and maintain pressure. Light Arms also has an easier time doing combos thanks to his longer jabs–I suspect many possible infinites exist with this character. Naruto is also among the lightweights–he air resets unusually slowly, giving opponents lots of potential juggles against him.
EDIT II: His 646C murders characters on wakeup if they don’t have a decent reversal. RIP Naja.

Cylic: A Ryu clone with an ant head? Word. Like Zena-Lan, LLL seems like the best bet, both for normals and for projectile options. Cylic has good speed and painful combos with his 628K wheel kick. HLL isn’t bad–any combo ending in 623P is bound to be devastating–but you don’t really need the DP when Cylic already has an anti-air projectile and the wheel kick. Might prove a decent zoner, but he’s held back slightly without fireball/DP at the same time.
EDIT: His fireball/wheel kick arrangement is pretty strong. His aa fireball doesn’t cover the best of angles, so the DP helps against attacks located higher above him. Cylic is a lightweight and can get juggled badly against certain characters.
EDIT II: Heavy Legs are really cool against Deamon. cl.LK knocks down, and small midscreen juggles are possible, as well as some possible corner infinites (cl.LK, far HK, repeat & cl.LKxxLegs, [far HKxxLegs]). cl.LK is also unblockable when in close range (I guess it crosses through their hurtbox?)–so if you get a knockdown you don’t even really need combos since you can loop it over and over. The tradeoff is that the Heavy Legs have worse buttons, but that’s a small price to pay. I’ve moved Cylic up to reflect this. For now I consider him slightly weaker than Naruto since he only has one way to land this “infinite”–Naruto may have many more. There may also be wakeup reversals–I’m having difficulty determining whether or not it’s possible, but if it is Cylic has enough good points to stay above Zena-Lan.
EDIT III: Reversals are present, with invuln frames aplenty–but Cylis stays here thanks to another discovery. You can land air throws on grounded opponents, and his does nearly 25% damage. You can also combo into it. His mixup game between Heavy Leg st.LK and iaThrow is brutal.

Zena-Lan: Right now this character is here for two reasons only: her bonkers corner pressure and her footspeed. For all I know it may be all she needs. Her fast speed helps in playing footsies and bullying people to the corner (and stages are quite small in this game), and Light Arms give her the dumbest Hands you’ve ever seen in your life, bar none. Mashing Hands makes a projectile, the speed and power of which increases as you mash. By pressuring with LPxxHands, mashing until the small projectile spawns, and walking forward as it fires, you can blockstring into LPxxHands again. The chip is unreal, and if the opponent eats a ghetto overhead the combo is painful too. I need to check the frames on this–but even if it’s escapable, the potential high/low scenario looks highly unpleasant. Her normals aren’t bad, either, assuming you stick to LLL–her Heavy options seem crappy.
EDIT: LHL is decent–the shoulder block special is great for combos–but she loses her speed advantage with the armour. She’s a lightweight, as well, allowing some characters to juggle her for serious damage. Her Hands stuff is a painful combo, but looks like it can be jumped out of, so she’ll probably go down in future revisions.
EDIT II: Her Heavy options aren’t “crappy”, but they are awkward. Heavy Body’s tackle leads to big damage on Deamon and Cylic, and Heavy Arms give her much more options for anti-air at the loss of Hands. Trick is, she gets crazy slow with them on unless you also take Heavy Legs. If you go for Heavy Body, go all in, otherwise stick to LLL.
EDIT III: Light Body is worth keeping because it gives her a throw–it’s an air throw, but it opens up her options against blockers. In matchups where IOHs aren’t likely, the throw option will net more damage than Heavy Body 66C.

Deamon: Of the Fugitives, Deamon seems the most dangerous thanks to his speed. His normals are really fast and/or long, so he can pressure you into the corner and stop you from jumping really fast. He seems to struggle with crouchers due to his hitboxes–ghetto overheads don’t work well with him–but I think this is a character who thrives on buttons.
EDIT: Deamon’s best features are his speed and throw game. His heavy buttons are kind of ass, but his walkspeed and long throw range equate to ridiculous damage when mashed. Tick throws are really good, and his 66PK can be used as weird sort of poke/aa as well as a combo tool. He crouches very low, so his crouch-walk is more useful than most. His big problems are size and weight: Deamon is probably the easiest character to combo in the game, to the point that a knockdown in the corner can potentially launch him. Corner conversions against him are a lot easier than against anybody else thanks to his size, so he’s relatively frail. He may go up in future revisions to these tiers.

Tyr: Not sure what to say. Tyr has Zangief’s Lariat to breeze through zoning, good anti-airs on his chest bumps, and decent normals–though LLL comes highly recommended. His damage is pretty good, actually, but I can’t help but feel like something’s missing here.
EDIT: Here’s what was ‘missing’–his armour choices are pretty solid. Heavy Arms give him very strong juggles against the lightweights and a decent aa in cr.HP (plus an air throw), and both Body options have their uses. His Light Legs are by far superior to Heavy, however, as his Light cr.LK is an infinite in the corner, and he has a few ways to combo into it. Once he gets a dizzy, he can repeat the procedure for the kill. He’s very slow, however, and without cr.LK and Heavy Arms his range isn’t all that great, so bullying an opponent into the corner with him takes some work.

Yug: My favorite–I’ve always wanted to play a gorilla. Yug is a character of extremes–he’s excruciatingly slow, but his claim to fame is 236P (an incredibly long, fast, low command grab). It has several followups, but the only one that matters is 89632K–everyone has 100 HP, and this throw does 31. Painful combos into it are possible. Yug’s lumbering and unsafe, but his anti-air is great. Convince the opponent to stay grounded long enough to land 236P and you’re golden. Yug’s biggest issue is probably characters like Zena-Lan, since he lacks GTFO moves and has a gap in 236P right in front of him where it won’t connect.
EDIT: Being able to ‘reversal’ with normals helps Yug quite a bit, since his cr.LK is a very fast sweep. He can combo into it against an air reset opponent, giving him time to move in. He has good range–cancels into 236P can be hard to punish at his good ranges, and the speed of pre-jump can let him snag people who try to jump away instead. Combos against the lightweight are only ‘okay’, but his combos into 236P can be devastating.
EDIT II: Yug, if he corners you, can switch gears into a risky 50/50 machine. His IOH j.LP is difficult to punish, while his cr.LK sweep knocks down. Both are risky, but he can drive you insane (kind of calls to mind SSVS Tam-Tam). He can also try a nj.LP, which hits twice and knocks down, to test for abare. Against Cylis and Deamon he becomes WAY scarier because the sweep starts a ToD combo. Yug’s a high risk/reward monster, and so I’ve decided to put him above Talmac.

Talmac: On paper, Talmac seems pretty good, but for how graceful he looks his normals sure are slow. They also don’t hit especially hard for their sluggish pace. He’s got a complete stable of specials, though–he has an actual fireball/DP combo, though I can’t say for sure if this character is a very solid zoner. His range is okay, and his anti-airs are many, so he might be in a similar boat to Deamon.
EDIT: Talmac’s jabs are pretty good. His midscreen juggle/combo game with them is strong, especially against Naruto. He doesn’t have throws, though, and his chip game is weak. Without that scary option, he’s not really in the same league as Deamon, so I’ve moved him down a touch to reflect this.
EDIT: Talmac’s DP really helps him out compared to the other Fugitives on wakeup. It’s got some generous invincibility, so he can avoid nonsense like Naruto’s 646C more easily. Nothing is really “safe” in this game, so cancelling jab pressure into his DP will keep opponents honest. His IOH game seems like it would be decent, but he jumps too fast and opponents duck too low for it to work at all. Opening up opponents with Talmac seems like a very tall order.

Naja: This character is probably fine, but she fights like a bigger, slower Dhalsim. Naja’s a huge target, and lacks the explosive damage potential of Yug or the buttons of Deamon or the pressure from Naruto. I’ll need to put some more work in here.
EDIT: Her specials are pants and her normals are generally really slow–very few combo possibilities. Her throw is pretty great, but at that point you may as well pick Deamon.[/details]

EDIT: You can ‘reversal’ out of blockstun with normals–sort of–alongside specials. Good spacing will be required to avoid eating jabs after stuff. This also weakens Zena-Lan a bit, but I’ll need to see how easy it is to escape Hands in the corner. Naruto is really small and can avoid the chip quite easily, it seems.
EDIT II: Hands can be jumped out of, though it can still combo. Zena-Lan can’t throw, either, so this’ll hurt her in the long run.
EDIT III: You can airthrow grounded opponents, so Zena-Lan can choose between painful corner combos or an instant-air throw option. Not bad.

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WOW you are on a streak!

2 things.

Regarding Double Dragon V SNES, man Blade should be at the top, at least A. has GREAT normals like his sweep and C MP, the multipunch dizzies fast, and so does the superman stuff, on block does insane chip, on hit its one of the most damaging multimoves in the game. Bones is kind of decent at range fight, and seems to have a redizzy (J MK, S FK repeat) but I couldnt land it properly.

2, Cosmic Carnage has a code to access the japanese version, wich has some game changing differences. Awesome write up btw.

Blade is pretty good, but he’s probably even better on the GEN version. Long normals literally go a long way in the GEN version since he can easily parry-and-punish at long range. He can combo into Hands more reliably on GEN, and his Psycho Crusher qualifies as airborne, so it’s essentially the only “overhead” in the game (and also hilariously hard to punish). His chip is definitely strong, but compared to the Lees or Sekka I think he’s a bit incomplete–especially the SNES version, where his anti-air options require him to be pretty far away. GEN Blade can aa parry, which helps him a lot. Moves like Blade’s PC and ballerina kick are worth looking into–adjusting the strength makes it hard to figure out when to punish, even in the GEN version. They don’t seem to combo as well in the SNES version, so the GEN versions may have more strengths there.
Bones is another character who benefits from GEN’s parries, since he can not only do the Dhalsim stuff, but also parry-punish at huge ranges–like characters trying to zone back (slightly lower forward speed helps him on defense, too). That redizzy does indeed work, but it’s a pain to time it right and his slow jump makes a clean jump-in unlikely.

(As for Cosmic Carnage/Cyber Brawl, are there any actual gameplay differences? I only noticed the obvious visual changes)

So I’ve been thinking about Real Bout Fatal Fury 1 alot lately and what a tier list might look like in this game.

I’d say the tops in this game for sure without a doubt are -

Kim - Bullshit normals, frame traps, can link his overhead into a sweep, easy combo’s and damage output, ridiculous anti-air with lots of invincibility and generally very safe/hard to punish, and probably the best S-Power move in the game. He can easily score ring outs as well. Then he’s also got an infinite combo… Kim is just the most BS character in the game, no question about it.

Geese - Really safe, great damage, really strong set of normals, he can zone very well, powerful counters, and his ability to ring out is also really good. And he’s also got an infinite combo too!

Mary - Very safe, unblockables, amazing range on her command grab P-Power that also does more than a full bars worth of damage. Her counters are really good as well. Probably the strongest Mary’s ever been far as Fatal Fury is concerned. Her only real weakness I think is it’s harder to ring out with her and if you aren’t careful with some of her moves, you could end up ringing yourself out as well.

Billy - Excellent normals, alot of characters have trouble getting in on him when he can poke them out and anti-air so well, his supers are also really good.

Sokaku - This character is ridiculous. He’s got a low hitting projectile move, a teleport that hits overhead, can cross-up and is pretty much safe, really good command grab and a pursuit attack that can be done anywhere. His mirror image attacks are also really good and allow him to mix it up and inflict considerable chip damage. Overall Sokaku is just a beast, really hard to get in on him and he’s also very safe.

Honorable Mentions Go To

Terry - Easy to get a ton of damage with him, his far stand C is really good, it’s pretty much Bison’s standing Roundhouse. Crack Shot is a great move, very safe, Power Geyser hits multiple times on block, inflicting decent chip and hits both the background and foreground, as does Triple Geyser. Rising Tackle is a great anti-air, and Round Wave is another great move that hits both fighting planes.

Andy - He’s got an infinite, very little recovery on alot of his moves, his ring out power is really good in particular. C version of Hishouken hits both planes, and does multi-hits, great for breaking barriers.

Franco - Strong anti-airs, he has really good wake-up attack that’ll discourage meaties, and is capable of doing tons of damage. Very good corner lockdown too, also making him a monster at scoring ring outs.

Joe - Good recovery on many of his moves, Tiger Kick is a great anti-air. His P-Power inflicts tons of chip damage. Overall he’s a really good straightforward character that’s easy to use.

I’m still pretty unsure of characters like Yamazaki since I don’t see him very often, but I’m pretty sure Bob is like the worst character in the game, he’s pretty terrible.