Tiers for obscure games


#2041

I have seen some Japan matches wch are pretty crazy. Balrog and Akuma seem pretty strong, specially Rog wich seems to dominate with 2 or 3 moves alone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwNyVulUI6c

Man you are hyping me with all this info! ilove obscure fighters damn.


#2042

Tiers for Mighty Morphin’ Power Rangers on the Genesis. I’ve been sitting on these for a while, and it shows. I’ll probably edit this at some point.

Here’s the general overview: this is a two-button fighter. Light normals can be canceled, but combos aren’t a given. There are no throws, so taking out a down-backing opponent is down to chip damage. Conveniently, many normals and specials are plus on block. Every character can backdash, but more importantly, they can run, aiding in pressure. Everyone has a 6AB ‘deflect’ move to counter projectiles.
Characters are divided between Ranger-sized and Monster-sized (which includes the Megazords). If a Zord is picked, the Rangers can’t be selected, and if a Ranger is selected the Megazords are similarly locked out–which limits the number of potential matchups in a cast of 12. The secret 13th character, Evil Green Ranger, can be used at either size class, but Green/Evil Green lock each other out. There are no mirror matches.
For now, I’ll split the tiers between size classes to reduce the headache in determining individual matchups:

Ranger Tiers
A-Jason, Tommy
B-Kimberly, Zack
C-Trini, Billy

[details=Spoiler]These tiers are really close together since they share the same template–every Ranger has a universal 236A/B gunshot, but it sucks. Otherwise, their only differences are in special moves and jump height. Chip damage, safety, and combo ability are the only things that really can separate them.

Jason has a plus-on-block Jaguar Kick with great speed and screen coverage. Combined with a comboable power sword, he covers the bases nicely. Tommy has a low-to-high-profiling Tiger Knee-alike with similar benefits on block. His version of Honda’s hands offers decent chip and pushback on block, but Tommy has to make do with chip–not much in the way of combos. Evil Green Ranger is slightly weaker, trading a special for a crappy DP.

Kimberly is arguably equal to Tommy–her arrows are high-risk/reward, and her Jaguar Kick is a fast high-profiling combo tool similar to Jason’s. Sadly, her jump is just ridiculously high, reducing her ability to get over certain attacks without eating damage. Zack has chip and plus frames on Hurricane Tackle, but is easily swept out of his spin attack.

Trini’s Tiger Crasher is an astoundingly strong cross-up–especially against the Monsters–but against the Rangers it totally fails to hit them crouching. Her Psycho Crusher is awkward and difficult to combo with, lacking a hitbox up close. Huge recovery, too. Billy has a rudimentary Flash Kick and poking game with his lance specials, but his charge times and long recovery limit his potential.[/details]

Monster Tiers
A-Madam Woe, Cyclopsis
B-Minotaur, Megazord
C-Dragonzord, Goldar

[details=Spoiler]The Monsters are, fittingly, a more eclectic bunch.

Madam Woe is really interesting. She has a good run, but a terrible backdash. An air fireball with instant recovery and loose height restrictions–but an agonizingly slow jump. Long range attacks–often with excruciating recovery. She’s capable of a tricky zoning game, synergizing with her ice breath (which pushes back really far on block). Her 5A has great speed and reach, so she’s not a one-trick pony. I’m probably overrating her, but I think in the right hands she could be a real handful. Cyclopsis is a lot simpler: [4]6B all day long to get in for free and deal chip. His other specials are really unsafe projectiles, but his decent normals and easy approach make him miles ahead of the other Zords.

Minotaur’s not bad. He’s alarmingly fast, but his approach is pants–unlike Cyclopsis, [4]6B is hilariously unsafe. [2]8A/B is like Honda’s Sumo Smash combined with FFS Raiden’s tackle–slow, with mucho invincibility. The two versions can allow for cross-up shenanigans on wakeup, but it’s otherwise easy to dodge or punish. If he gets a life lead, he’s a lot better. His anti-air is decent, and Yoga Flame keeps the pressure on. Megazord is basically only here because it can combo stuff into 46A and has a great aa on 28A. Megazord’s movement and blockstun seem somehow…fatter? It fights more like a SamSho character or something.

Dragonzord is slow and awkward, but its missiles cover a really interesting angle that’s hard to get in on. Its version of TAP lacks invulnerability, but makes for a good counterpoke. Goldar has essentially zero useful specials besides his DP, limiting his ability to chip, and his hitboxes suck royally–cl.A doesn’t hit a croucher for shit. He basically has to fish for 5B all day long.[/details]

As always, I’ll be needing to investigate these more closely–since I haven’t put much time into crossing the streams there’s almost nothing but theory here.

EDIT: Damage is really low in this game–chip is important, but when it’s this low matches really drag. I like setting Game Level to 8 in config to speed things up by a shitload.


#2043

Karnov has a move I’ve seen in some videose where he does his d+HK (ground body slide), but he also teleports to the enemy. Do you know how to do this?


#2044

EDIT: The mechanics are detailed here, but the tiers are outdated. Read further on for a clearer analysis.

So now I’m working on some tiers for Cosmic Carnage. This game is fascinating. From the weird pre-Rumble Fish animations, to crouch-walking, to the armour system, it’s shockingly intricate. Plays pretty well, too, if you can deal with its trademark slowdown. Standard mixups, throws, juggles, fireball/DP and cancels are here in full force (though they must be done rather late–it’s a strange sensation).

Characters come in two flavours: Soldier, or Fugitive. Soldiers can select different pieces of armour to mix up normals/specials and reduce chip–but if damaged enough, lose the armour (and their specials with them). Fugitives have no armour, so they always take chip, but can’t lose any moves.

A word on mechanics: there are no overheads, but there is a way to hit crouchers with standing normals. When you crouch in this game, there’s a brief pre-crouch period (and while-standing); this applies to crouch-walking as well. During this period, you can’t block–if you were blocking low and stay blocking low, you’ll recover from blockstun immediately into pre-crouch and become momentarily vulnerable. This, in effect, allows any high attack to operate as an overhead. One can avoid this by switching to high guard during blockstun, but this of course leaves you open to lows. Pretty swank stuff for the time.
EDIT: This quirk applies to standing guard as well, but the timing for this vulerable gap changes slightly depending on the normal and the characters in question. It’s not 100% guaranteed, as far as I can tell, but it sure does make corner pressure scarier.
EDIT II: This quirk also applies to landing from an air reset. Anti-airs hurt a lot.
EDIT III: This game has ‘sticky’ recovery: trying to attack too fast when switching from crouching to standing (or vice-versa) will cause a normal of your current elevation to come out instead. This can affect punishes, and is probably a side effect of the quirk mentioned above.

Cosmic Carnage Tiers
A-Naruto, Cylic, Zena-Lan
B-Deamon, Tyr
C-Yug, Talmac, Naja

For the sake of notation, I’ll define Arm/Body/Leg options with Light/Heavy shorthand, like HHL or LLH.

[details=Spoiler]Naruto: If every character were like Naruto this game would be wild. He’s the only character who can dash, but it operates in an unorthodox manner: he can do it forward and backward, in the air and diagonally upward. He can’t do it into normals, but it recovers instantly if he reaches the opponent. It also counts as a special move! This means he can pressure with normals, cancel them into the instant dash for more pressure, the upward dash for sorta-instant overheads, or extend combos by dashing out of recovery. It gives him outrageous corner potential, huge mobility, and all sorts of nasty stuff. He’s a blast. Currently, I find his best configuration to be HHL–Heavy Arm DP rounds him out more nicely than Light Body’s spin kick, and more armour is a plus. Light Legs give him good ground combo potential. LHL is okay, too, as 6326P fills out his otherwise-vacant zoning options.
EDIT: Heavy Body gives him 646C/Z, which is essentially an unblockable that knocks the opponent fullscreen. If you use Light Arms he can go back to zoning, or you can just dash in and maintain pressure. Light Arms also has an easier time doing combos thanks to his longer jabs–I suspect many possible infinites exist with this character. Naruto is also among the lightweights–he air resets unusually slowly, giving opponents lots of potential juggles against him.
EDIT II: His 646C murders characters on wakeup if they don’t have a decent reversal. RIP Naja.

Cylic: A Ryu clone with an ant head? Word. Like Zena-Lan, LLL seems like the best bet, both for normals and for projectile options. Cylic has good speed and painful combos with his 628K wheel kick. HLL isn’t bad–any combo ending in 623P is bound to be devastating–but you don’t really need the DP when Cylic already has an anti-air projectile and the wheel kick. Might prove a decent zoner, but he’s held back slightly without fireball/DP at the same time.
EDIT: His fireball/wheel kick arrangement is pretty strong. His aa fireball doesn’t cover the best of angles, so the DP helps against attacks located higher above him. Cylic is a lightweight and can get juggled badly against certain characters.
EDIT II: Heavy Legs are really cool against Deamon. cl.LK knocks down, and small midscreen juggles are possible, as well as some possible corner infinites (cl.LK, far HK, repeat & cl.LKxxLegs, [far HKxxLegs]). cl.LK is also unblockable when in close range (I guess it crosses through their hurtbox?)–so if you get a knockdown you don’t even really need combos since you can loop it over and over. The tradeoff is that the Heavy Legs have worse buttons, but that’s a small price to pay. I’ve moved Cylic up to reflect this. For now I consider him slightly weaker than Naruto since he only has one way to land this “infinite”–Naruto may have many more. There may also be wakeup reversals–I’m having difficulty determining whether or not it’s possible, but if it is Cylic has enough good points to stay above Zena-Lan.
EDIT III: Reversals are present, with invuln frames aplenty–but Cylis stays here thanks to another discovery. You can land air throws on grounded opponents, and his does nearly 25% damage. You can also combo into it. His mixup game between Heavy Leg st.LK and iaThrow is brutal.

Zena-Lan: Right now this character is here for two reasons only: her bonkers corner pressure and her footspeed. For all I know it may be all she needs. Her fast speed helps in playing footsies and bullying people to the corner (and stages are quite small in this game), and Light Arms give her the dumbest Hands you’ve ever seen in your life, bar none. Mashing Hands makes a projectile, the speed and power of which increases as you mash. By pressuring with LPxxHands, mashing until the small projectile spawns, and walking forward as it fires, you can blockstring into LPxxHands again. The chip is unreal, and if the opponent eats a ghetto overhead the combo is painful too. I need to check the frames on this–but even if it’s escapable, the potential high/low scenario looks highly unpleasant. Her normals aren’t bad, either, assuming you stick to LLL–her Heavy options seem crappy.
EDIT: LHL is decent–the shoulder block special is great for combos–but she loses her speed advantage with the armour. She’s a lightweight, as well, allowing some characters to juggle her for serious damage. Her Hands stuff is a painful combo, but looks like it can be jumped out of, so she’ll probably go down in future revisions.
EDIT II: Her Heavy options aren’t “crappy”, but they are awkward. Heavy Body’s tackle leads to big damage on Deamon and Cylic, and Heavy Arms give her much more options for anti-air at the loss of Hands. Trick is, she gets crazy slow with them on unless you also take Heavy Legs. If you go for Heavy Body, go all in, otherwise stick to LLL.
EDIT III: Light Body is worth keeping because it gives her a throw–it’s an air throw, but it opens up her options against blockers. In matchups where IOHs aren’t likely, the throw option will net more damage than Heavy Body 66C.

Deamon: Of the Fugitives, Deamon seems the most dangerous thanks to his speed. His normals are really fast and/or long, so he can pressure you into the corner and stop you from jumping really fast. He seems to struggle with crouchers due to his hitboxes–ghetto overheads don’t work well with him–but I think this is a character who thrives on buttons.
EDIT: Deamon’s best features are his speed and throw game. His heavy buttons are kind of ass, but his walkspeed and long throw range equate to ridiculous damage when mashed. Tick throws are really good, and his 66PK can be used as weird sort of poke/aa as well as a combo tool. He crouches very low, so his crouch-walk is more useful than most. His big problems are size and weight: Deamon is probably the easiest character to combo in the game, to the point that a knockdown in the corner can potentially launch him. Corner conversions against him are a lot easier than against anybody else thanks to his size, so he’s relatively frail. He may go up in future revisions to these tiers.

Tyr: Not sure what to say. Tyr has Zangief’s Lariat to breeze through zoning, good anti-airs on his chest bumps, and decent normals–though LLL comes highly recommended. His damage is pretty good, actually, but I can’t help but feel like something’s missing here.
EDIT: Here’s what was ‘missing’–his armour choices are pretty solid. Heavy Arms give him very strong juggles against the lightweights and a decent aa in cr.HP (plus an air throw), and both Body options have their uses. His Light Legs are by far superior to Heavy, however, as his Light cr.LK is an infinite in the corner, and he has a few ways to combo into it. Once he gets a dizzy, he can repeat the procedure for the kill. He’s very slow, however, and without cr.LK and Heavy Arms his range isn’t all that great, so bullying an opponent into the corner with him takes some work.

Yug: My favorite–I’ve always wanted to play a gorilla. Yug is a character of extremes–he’s excruciatingly slow, but his claim to fame is 236P (an incredibly long, fast, low command grab). It has several followups, but the only one that matters is 89632K–everyone has 100 HP, and this throw does 31. Painful combos into it are possible. Yug’s lumbering and unsafe, but his anti-air is great. Convince the opponent to stay grounded long enough to land 236P and you’re golden. Yug’s biggest issue is probably characters like Zena-Lan, since he lacks GTFO moves and has a gap in 236P right in front of him where it won’t connect.
EDIT: Being able to ‘reversal’ with normals helps Yug quite a bit, since his cr.LK is a very fast sweep. He can combo into it against an air reset opponent, giving him time to move in. He has good range–cancels into 236P can be hard to punish at his good ranges, and the speed of pre-jump can let him snag people who try to jump away instead. Combos against the lightweight are only ‘okay’, but his combos into 236P can be devastating.
EDIT II: Yug, if he corners you, can switch gears into a risky 50/50 machine. His IOH j.LP is difficult to punish, while his cr.LK sweep knocks down. Both are risky, but he can drive you insane (kind of calls to mind SSVS Tam-Tam). He can also try a nj.LP, which hits twice and knocks down, to test for abare. Against Cylis and Deamon he becomes WAY scarier because the sweep starts a ToD combo. Yug’s a high risk/reward monster, and so I’ve decided to put him above Talmac.

Talmac: On paper, Talmac seems pretty good, but for how graceful he looks his normals sure are slow. They also don’t hit especially hard for their sluggish pace. He’s got a complete stable of specials, though–he has an actual fireball/DP combo, though I can’t say for sure if this character is a very solid zoner. His range is okay, and his anti-airs are many, so he might be in a similar boat to Deamon.
EDIT: Talmac’s jabs are pretty good. His midscreen juggle/combo game with them is strong, especially against Naruto. He doesn’t have throws, though, and his chip game is weak. Without that scary option, he’s not really in the same league as Deamon, so I’ve moved him down a touch to reflect this.
EDIT: Talmac’s DP really helps him out compared to the other Fugitives on wakeup. It’s got some generous invincibility, so he can avoid nonsense like Naruto’s 646C more easily. Nothing is really “safe” in this game, so cancelling jab pressure into his DP will keep opponents honest. His IOH game seems like it would be decent, but he jumps too fast and opponents duck too low for it to work at all. Opening up opponents with Talmac seems like a very tall order.

Naja: This character is probably fine, but she fights like a bigger, slower Dhalsim. Naja’s a huge target, and lacks the explosive damage potential of Yug or the buttons of Deamon or the pressure from Naruto. I’ll need to put some more work in here.
EDIT: Her specials are pants and her normals are generally really slow–very few combo possibilities. Her throw is pretty great, but at that point you may as well pick Deamon.[/details]

EDIT: You can ‘reversal’ out of blockstun with normals–sort of–alongside specials. Good spacing will be required to avoid eating jabs after stuff. This also weakens Zena-Lan a bit, but I’ll need to see how easy it is to escape Hands in the corner. Naruto is really small and can avoid the chip quite easily, it seems.
EDIT II: Hands can be jumped out of, though it can still combo. Zena-Lan can’t throw, either, so this’ll hurt her in the long run.
EDIT III: You can airthrow grounded opponents, so Zena-Lan can choose between painful corner combos or an instant-air throw option. Not bad.


#2045

WOW you are on a streak!

2 things.

Regarding Double Dragon V SNES, man Blade should be at the top, at least A. has GREAT normals like his sweep and C MP, the multipunch dizzies fast, and so does the superman stuff, on block does insane chip, on hit its one of the most damaging multimoves in the game. Bones is kind of decent at range fight, and seems to have a redizzy (J MK, S FK repeat) but I couldnt land it properly.

2, Cosmic Carnage has a code to access the japanese version, wich has some game changing differences. Awesome write up btw.


#2046

Blade is pretty good, but he’s probably even better on the GEN version. Long normals literally go a long way in the GEN version since he can easily parry-and-punish at long range. He can combo into Hands more reliably on GEN, and his Psycho Crusher qualifies as airborne, so it’s essentially the only “overhead” in the game (and also hilariously hard to punish). His chip is definitely strong, but compared to the Lees or Sekka I think he’s a bit incomplete–especially the SNES version, where his anti-air options require him to be pretty far away. GEN Blade can aa parry, which helps him a lot. Moves like Blade’s PC and ballerina kick are worth looking into–adjusting the strength makes it hard to figure out when to punish, even in the GEN version. They don’t seem to combo as well in the SNES version, so the GEN versions may have more strengths there.
Bones is another character who benefits from GEN’s parries, since he can not only do the Dhalsim stuff, but also parry-punish at huge ranges–like characters trying to zone back (slightly lower forward speed helps him on defense, too). That redizzy does indeed work, but it’s a pain to time it right and his slow jump makes a clean jump-in unlikely.

(As for Cosmic Carnage/Cyber Brawl, are there any actual gameplay differences? I only noticed the obvious visual changes)


#2047

So I’ve been thinking about Real Bout Fatal Fury 1 alot lately and what a tier list might look like in this game.

I’d say the tops in this game for sure without a doubt are -

Kim - Bullshit normals, frame traps, can link his overhead into a sweep, easy combo’s and damage output, ridiculous anti-air with lots of invincibility and generally very safe/hard to punish, and probably the best S-Power move in the game. He can easily score ring outs as well. Then he’s also got an infinite combo… Kim is just the most BS character in the game, no question about it.

Geese - Really safe, great damage, really strong set of normals, he can zone very well, powerful counters, and his ability to ring out is also really good. And he’s also got an infinite combo too!

Mary - Very safe, unblockables, amazing range on her command grab P-Power that also does more than a full bars worth of damage. Her counters are really good as well. Probably the strongest Mary’s ever been far as Fatal Fury is concerned. Her only real weakness I think is it’s harder to ring out with her and if you aren’t careful with some of her moves, you could end up ringing yourself out as well.

Billy - Excellent normals, alot of characters have trouble getting in on him when he can poke them out and anti-air so well, his supers are also really good.

Sokaku - This character is ridiculous. He’s got a low hitting projectile move, a teleport that hits overhead, can cross-up and is pretty much safe, really good command grab and a pursuit attack that can be done anywhere. His mirror image attacks are also really good and allow him to mix it up and inflict considerable chip damage. Overall Sokaku is just a beast, really hard to get in on him and he’s also very safe.

Honorable Mentions Go To

Terry - Easy to get a ton of damage with him, his far stand C is really good, it’s pretty much Bison’s standing Roundhouse. Crack Shot is a great move, very safe, Power Geyser hits multiple times on block, inflicting decent chip and hits both the background and foreground, as does Triple Geyser. Rising Tackle is a great anti-air, and Round Wave is another great move that hits both fighting planes.

Andy - He’s got an infinite, very little recovery on alot of his moves, his ring out power is really good in particular. C version of Hishouken hits both planes, and does multi-hits, great for breaking barriers.

Franco - Strong anti-airs, he has really good wake-up attack that’ll discourage meaties, and is capable of doing tons of damage. Very good corner lockdown too, also making him a monster at scoring ring outs.

Joe - Good recovery on many of his moves, Tiger Kick is a great anti-air. His P-Power inflicts tons of chip damage. Overall he’s a really good straightforward character that’s easy to use.

I’m still pretty unsure of characters like Yamazaki since I don’t see him very often, but I’m pretty sure Bob is like the worst character in the game, he’s pretty terrible.


#2048

Trigger Happy KKKKK move (Shocker) cant be blocked high also on snes afaik.

BTW on the SNES with blade it happened to me a lot, that I cant be charging down-back and press a button, because the character will execute the STANDING version of the move. This happens more at sweep distance (?)

Cosmic Carnage: Im really cloudy about that, it was really a long time ago. Wow I must revisit some games.

EDIT: Love the music on Cosmic Carnage, so Story of Thor/Crusader of Centy style.


#2049

I’m having trouble replicating scenarios where the opponent is in a position to try and block Shocker high–trying to link into it on SNES is a lost cause, and going for a blockstring pushes him really far away. Could you elaborate on how set that up?

I was totally saying “yeah right” to the mysterious down-back highs on Blade. Then I tried it myself. It’s finicky, but it’s doable. Interesting find–friggin’ bizarre. This definitely isn’t in the GEN version. It’s not a deal breaker, but it’s another thing in GEN Blade’s favour.


#2050

Oh yes, I just simply back one player to the corner holding back or down back. I tested it on the Lees. Just jumped mashing K and when I fell, it hits them (Shocker) while blocking backwards), not while crouching.

Actually I think it is for SNES Blade, cause you cant Sweep while charging down back (or at least its not 100% safe).

EDIT:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand just found that you can STORE multi input attacks, just mash them (buffer them) while in a jump then walk a bit and press the desired attack button. VOILA! (SNES only)

EDIT 2: LOL at Jaguar missing Trigger Happy and Blade.


#2051

Just tested this (I wasn’t mashing nearly fast enough before; it’s easier on GEN). It certainly does hit low. This is…rather inexplicable, considering it loses to sweeps like Blanka’s electricity (not that Blade can sweep it at some distances lol). Not sure how practical this is, though–reliable combos into multi-hit attacks seem rare in the SNES version, storing or no storing.


#2052

OK, Kasumi Ninja, Atari Jaguar (experimental)
**
UPDATED 19-06-2016**

Played emulated, 60fps. Only apparent difference vs real hardware seems to be cosmetic (missing floor texture).

I labeled it as experimental because I have to play vs another human being that knows what he/she is doing on vs mode, or at least willingfull enough to bear this game, which after playing it a lot, DOESN’T feels that bad or ugly. There are worse games out there. I liked how cheesy it is, and the graphics for its time were photo realistic (at least the backgrounds).

To follow I’m_Amazon template, which I liked, here is a note about basic stuff and game engine.

This game blocks holding backwards. SF Rules of high/low DOT APPLY, everything can be blocked LOW.

Throws can be crouched apparently but it doesn’t seems consistence. UPATE: confirmed and there is even a whiff throw animation if you crouch under a throw attempt. UPDATE 2: All throws CAN be blocked holding back. So they suck MORE. Throw input varies by character.

A button is punch, if you press it repeatedly, you get “flurry MK style jabs” and this is VERY interesting, because there seems to be a (soft) JAB BLOCK cancel in this game, lol. If you press foward and A, you get a High Punch variant. D+A are crouched jabs, and DF+A are uppercuts, wich are the best AA in the game. F+A is a varied punch, either Elbow or something else.

B button is kick, Towards + B is a High Kick, and Backwards + B is a Roundhouse. D+B is a Sweep Kick (block low) but some chars don’ t have one, but a Low Kick. F+B is a Knee, mostly.

Both buttons while jumping, offers the usual punches and kicks while jumping (doh).

C buttons is the “hold and do special move input like primal rage” button. Its worst sin is that you CANT buffer moves, even from a jump, or cancel normal’s with specials. You CAN attack standing while holding C but you CANT block. if you buffer something during another move, lets say a move that involves UP, when the normal ends, your character JUMPS. WEIRDLY, you can buffer inputs while holding C, like for example, Danjas projectile: Hold C, BBBF, and keep taping.

There are NO COMBOS NOR JUGGLES (until now) in this game. Hit stun after one attacks makes your rival invulnerable to any next attack until he/she recovers. SO the game revolves around pokes, MAYBE throws and projectile zoning. Getting in close is VERY hard for some match ups due to the punch flurry and Block stun is definitely FIXED.

As mentioned, zoning is win in this game, and projectile zoning is the way to go. Some chars have better fireball than others and that helps them to climb to the top (or fall to the bottom) of this experimental tier list. As jumping in this game is HARD, its harder to avoid some projectiles, but some can be crouched with no damage at all. Those with the crouchable projectiles seem weaker at zoning IMO.

There is a weird system that if you receive a closed knee or elbow, the second or third, will cause a knockdown. I have to experiment more on this. There exists chip damage as well, from normal’s and specials. This applies to AA or air to air situations.

There is a kind of guard crush mechanic that so far I have triggered by making the rival block 3 successive uppercuts.

Trade with moves that, well… trade, does no damage to both players and just push them back, a bit. UPDATE: You can nullify proyectiles if you punch/kick/air attack them on the same frame they hit, kind of like AOF1 FIreball jab nullifying.

Update on JUMPS: They Suck, cause you CANT press the buttons more or less before or after your jump maximum heights. This is char dependent, so ones can press their attacks earlier then others. So if you want to Jump Attack, mash that thing as you jump to hope to something comes out.

S

Thundra

Fastest Uppercut in the game and good AA. Sadly has no forward range. Coupled with a Superman/Psycho Crusher LIGHTNING FAST ALL SCREEN move, is all she needs. Just spam it. Brain dead. When she does it FULL screen, she passes by the opponent sprite till she gets to the other corner. Kind of safe on block, but if the opponent is cornered, its punishable by an uppercut, wich BTW I feels the more agile and responsive damaging punish option by now. Also to top it off, has a damn Teleport which is fast and the foe doesn’t recovers in time. You can win via timeout with this.

UPDATE: For some reason, some characters RANDOMLY cant block the Superman move.

Alaric

Maybe the BEST uppercut in the game, 2nd fastest to AA and hits forward nicely, recovers VERY quick on block, a command throw which does lots of damage but hard to land. Decent projectile which cant be crouched. His Slide is very fast and good, on block is punishable, Fast Uppercut chars can punish him. I could setup cross up Slides on Wakeup. Blocked has some recovery to it. He and Angus can LAME Thundra, cause their projectiles stop her Superman BS, and she has no projectile. If she teleport behind, try to get put of here (she will fall like outside of sweep range anyway). Excelent reach on command normals like F+A, or DB+B.

A

Danja.

She is here for his fireball and teleport game alone. Her teleport is ridiculously broken, as Thundra, and her fireball cant be crouched. Decent range normal kicks. Decent Uppercut.

Pakawa

Best Jump Kick in the game, due to angle, duration of the move BUT his small jump compromises some of this due to not being able to JK all fireballs. Its hard to uppercut him as AA. AWESOME fireball which some characters can crouch, and has a Ground Shake at all distance that MUST be jumped, and as we said, jumping is CLUMSY in this game. Has a VERY damaging command throw and a very gory fatality ha ha. His uppercut SUCKS.

Angus

LITERAL FIREBALLS! Cant be crouched, and are fast with a huge hit box and good recovery! Can be the Sagat here. Decent uppercut but lacks a sweep. Has a command throw. He has 2 kicks that are decent speed to use as an AA. Cool char.

B

(Working on it, but I’ m pretty sure these 4 are the worst. Their fireball are slow and can be crouched, their uppercuts are ultra slow, and their kick specials useless, as Chagi Overhead kick (is not an overhead), he has a VERY good and “pointy” JK, or Ninjas Triple Kick, just block and uppercut, only good thing about the ninjas is their Teleport)

Chagi
Habaki
Senzo
Gyaku

Not tiered: Demon Gyaku

I hope to have someone to record some matches for this.

Note: A long time ago, by luck I talked to one of the programmers, which I contacted via YOUTUBE , he told me that the game works with an “empty” polygon on which the sprites and animations were loaded, and that is why the game feels so sluggish and the collision off.


#2053

Good shit, Hanzo. I had considered Kasumi Ninja when I was v̶o̶m̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶f̶u̶s̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ testing Double Dragon V on the Jag, but my toaster wasn’t able to emulate it smoothly.

Is Thundra’s kind-of-unblockable superman a result of quirky hitboxes? Over in Cosmic Carnage, Cylic’s Heavy Leg s.LK causes a similar situation because of the weird boxes, so it can “sometimes” be blocked. Maybe Thundra’s changes based on distance traveled?
How fast is the teleport’s recovery? Would it be possible for, say, Angus to play the lame game and prevent her from abusing her superman and uppercuts?

Speaking of Angus, if there’s no combos, are there any plus on block attacks or tick throws? If command grabs are any good that could prove a decent substitute for an actual combo game. Do the MK-style jab strings combo the same way as MKII or whatever, or do they push away faster? What happens if they’re used in the corner?

Are juggles possible, or do characters air reset like in Street Fighter?

EDIT: This is a long shot, but since the C button works like Primal Rage, maybe there’s a way to hold C during other actions to buffer specials? Hope springs eternal.


#2054

Funny, when she does it FULL screen, she passes by the opponent sprite till she gets to the other corner. Kind of safe on block, but if the opponent is cornered, its punishable by an uppercut, wich BTW I feels the more agile and responsive damaging punish option by now.

All Teleports are broken, because the rival DONT turn around inmediately and they are position based, so if you teleport with the screen CLOSE to one corner, you will get out of pressure inmediately. You CAN hit them on their teleports, buts its HARD to do. Danja may keep up with her too, the thing is that the full screen Superman is too damn cheap and hard to punish.

Actually I feel he CAN lame her out. He has 2 kicks that are decent speed to use as an AA.

Comman trows SUCK almost as much as regular throws, and I will update now that, NORMAL THROWS ARE TOTALLY BLOCKABLE while pushing Back or DB. That is maybe why there is chip damage everywhere. I dont recall combo jabs in MKII, in the corner they push you back, and cause low block/hit stun. I have to update that too.

No man, sadly no juggles. Every AA attack just trips/knockdowns the opponent. And also the “3 hit before knockdown” by normal hits, is carried to air to air, or anti air situations. Again, gonna update now.

There is a guard crush that so far I have triggered by making the rival block 3 sucessive uppercuts.

No, sadly no. Not even while jumping you can buffer specials. In fact, if you buffer something during another move, lets say a move that involves UP, when the normal ends, your character JUMPS. BTW when you hold C, you cant move, attack or block.

Jumps Im gonna update that, there is some weird stuff too.


#2055

You deserve some props for being able to stomach Kasumi Ninja long enough to actually put together a tier list.


#2056

Haha, Kasumi Ninja its not THAT bad, I mean, Brutal Paws of Fury, Ballz, things like that are way worse.

I may not get into Ultra Vortek tough.


#2057

I tried stomaching Brutal Unleashed: Above the Claw. Didn’t take.

I also tried Ballz. I believe there’s a list somewhere to the tune of “F-Everyone”, and it sure seems that way.


#2058

I may play Clayfighter 2 a bit more, the game is mad fun and has kind of a SF feeling. In youtube, @wingedyoshi (idk if he posts in here) has a SICK combovid and some speedruns, and in their youtube comments, he discusses some competitive info about char tiers etc. Kind of interesting and a very knowledgeable guy on CF.


#2059

Cosmic Carnage Tier List, version 2.0

I finally had the chance to play a lengthy offline set for this game. It’s a blast (switching armour for matchups is surprisingly compelling), but I definitely had some things wrong. To make a long story short, the way blockstun and reversals work makes certain characters much different than I initially thought.

S-Deamon, Cylic
A-Tyr
B-Naruto, Zena-Lan
C-Naja, Yug
D-Talmac

[details=Spoiler]
Deamon: Stupid, straight up. His 66PK is alright, but his throw game is bonkers thanks to both his blistering walkspeed and cr.LK. Block anything = reversal cr.LK, then walk up throw ad nauseum. The way reversals work prevents this from being escaped, and to top it off knockdowns let Deamon walk your corpse to the corner with ease. He barely has to do anything–he walks so fast as to make zoning almost trivial, and if he blocks you once, you die. Maybe this is overreacting, but he’s practically ban-worthy unless you’re playing for shits and giggles.
He’s vulnerable to deadly combos in the corner, but it’s incredibly unlikely he’ll get hit by these.

Cylic: A very complete character, fitting for the shotoclone. Also pretty stupid, since he can imitate Deamon’s throw game in Light armour. His Arm and Leg options are both useful (though the unblockable cl.LK is not as reliable as I once thought), with good options to control ground and air space–he can’t equip a DP and a fireball at the same time, but LLL gives him an anti-air fireball, a wheel kick, an air-throw that can hit grounded opponents for big damage (and can be used in combos), and a standard hadouken. He can zone well, and has some solid poking normals (especially Heavy farHP and farHK). He also has a standard throw (which is oddly rare), so he can pressure with some efficacy, even in Heavy gear.
His flaws are that he’s kind of small–his range is on the short side–and that he’s lightweight. Big combos are possible on this character, which limits how recklessly he can abuse his good shit.

Tyr: I seriously underestimated how strong this guy’s infinite was. My friend primarily played Tyr, and discovered the ease of which this character can zone, counter-zone, anti-air and corner pressure. His armour options are well-rounded–Light Arm’s Earthquake Punch serves as a great anti-air/zoning tool with active frames for days (and knocks down!), while Heavy Arms give him great pokes, anti-airs and juggle possibilities. Light Body is meh, but Heavy Body gives him a projectile, to help round out his anti-zoning features. Light Legs are god. One mistake in or near the corner is almost certain defeat unless you’re incredibly lucky. He also has some throw options to frustrate players hoping to reversal punish a blocked cr.LK.
Tyr’s main faults stem from his size–even with LLL he’s fat as all get out, with slow speed and a slow, low jump. Characters with projectiles and strong anti-airs on deck make getting in arduous, and a single mistake can cost him the round if he gets knocked down by zoning.

Naruto: I definitely overrated him. His cancellable dashes are incredible–but only on hit. On block, reversals eat him clean, and the large amount of active frames in this game makes his 646C easy to stuff. His combos are less practical midscreen, and his stun gauge seems small. He’s short, with less range than you might expect.
The upshot is that his combos and throws are still good, and his Heavy Arm DP is decent (entering it as 236236HP grants awesome reach). If you land a hit with this character, he’s still good–646C is downright abusive on some characters’ wakeup–but the really scary stuff is shaping up to be combo video fodder. He also techs faster than other characters, which can save your bacon. He’s still good, but he’s fragile. As such, I think putting him in the middle of the road is suitable.

Zena-Lan: I overrated her, too. The reversals make pressure with Hands all but impossible. Zoning is a no-go since it takes ages to build up the fireball and release it safely. However, everything else I mentioned remains valuable: her walkspeed and normals are above-average, and her aa options are fleshed out with Heavy Arms. I had surprising success with Heavy Body’s tackle as an anti-air, but her Light Body air throw isn’t to be ignored–without it, she can’t really mix up, making it difficult to force damage since she can’t really chip with her projectile either.
Basically, play it cool and just press buttons. Against Cylic and Deamon she can really turn up the jets, but she’ll have to work for it.

Naja: I couldn’t have been happier when I found that Naja is much more effective in practice than theory. Reversals are a problem in footsies, but Naja’s LK and HK look extremely similar. They hit at different speeds and ranges, making it tricky to reversal her on reaction. Her ability to avoid zoning with cr.LK/HK slides is remarkably stable, and after a knockdown she can mix up slides or IOH j.LK to agitate you. 214P can circumvent zoning and punish stuff well, and [2]8K can low crush. She has lots of anti-airs, but they’re all flaky in some way or another. Her throw is practically equal to Deamon’s–landing it, sliding up, and doing it again is possible.
However, her gameplan is way less simple than Deamon’s. She’s really slow, and her other normals are lacking in speed and/or range. Her throw range and slow speed make it way harder to engage than Deamon’s, and she lacks his cr.LK to easily sweep and quickly get in range–she essentially has to get in and throw you first before she can loop it, which is no easy feat for her (and is way easier in the corner, which can be hard for her to do). She definitely does play out like Dhalsim–you can be keeping someone out all day with well-placed pokes and anti-airs, but one mistake and the house of cards comes crashing down.

Yug: Poor baby. His normals are actually solid, but his agonizingly slow speed and difficulties concerning his command throw make him a lot of effort to get in with. It’s theoretically possible to distance someone near the corner such that his command throw lands them at the perfect distance to time another one on their wakeup, but the distancing and ease of setup isn’t in Yug’s favour like it is with Deamon. His damage is still very good, though, so maybe I’m underrating him a bit and just need to focus on buttons and punishes.
His 50/50 game in the corner is also quite good, but getting there? Sheesh. His other big issue is that, thanks to his girth and waddle, even bad zoning works fine on him. If moving in with Tyr was arduous, Yug’s is a form of torture.

Talmac: Honestly, Talmac’s not even all that bad. His DP is very good (though its horizontal range is pants), his 646HP is wicked fast, and his pokes on farHP, farHK and cr.HP mix up reversal timings. His anti-airs are solid, and his jabs make for good midscreen hit-confirms. I’m probably underrating him.
The problem is his total lack of throws. His ground-shaving projectile is pretty easy to avoid, so he can’t rely on it to chip, especially against the armoured characters (they won’t take chip until he actually breaks them first). His matchups are looking really screwy, is what I’m saying. A patient Tyr or Cylic is a total nightmare, though he probably does fine against Yug.[/details]

Throws are strong. Generally speaking, characters with throws have the ability to repeat them in the corner if they’re fast. Deamon and Cylic can set this up fairly easily midscreen, which is a huge boon. Tyr can manage it in the corner. Naruto can’t, for some reason, but 646C works similarly.


#2060

@IM_Amazon my friend, didnt you recorded some matches?