Tiers?

makoto

#1

I thought tier lists took matchups into consideration, if so, then why is makoto consistently ranked so high if she has less 5-5 matchups than 4-6 matchups?


#2

Because Makoto tosses your matchup numbers in the garbage once you get choked.


#3

So basically people rank her higher on tier lists so they don’t feel so bad when they lose to her?


#4

She’s high because she has really scary damage / stun and really good mixups, meaning she can win most matchup with a few reads even if she’s at disadvantage / equal in the neutral game.
It’s really hard to judge makoto per matchups, because she tend to play a 1 player game once she gets going.


#5

What I’m saying (and what pretty much anyone else will say) is that there is an “X factor” when playing both as and against Makoto that is hard to quantify on paper and with hard matchup numbers. Nothing in the game strikes fear into an opponent like a Makoto who has momentum and reads, and a previously unfavorable match can turn on a dime for Mak.


#6

So they base their lists on what COULD happen? Rather than something that is more than likely to happen.


#7

lol so F ing true!!! lol

you always hear ultradavid saying “makoto is never out, she’s never out of it” when he’s commentating a match.

having a pixel of health means nothing for a makoto player when he knows you’re 5 secs from being stunned no matter what the matchup.


#8

I’ve always had Makoto in my top 10. She has everything you need, besides a good wakeup.

I guess you could say Makoto is the only character in the game, who’s numbers change during the match. o.O


#9

People often base match-ups heavily on what happens in the neutral game. Makoto loses in a lot of neutral scenarios, but “lose” is a word with a lot of variables. Makoto has godlike normals… even if she “loses” at neutral her s.MP is an incredible button that is scary even against characters that should beat her at neutral. For example, check out EVO 2013 Haitani vs Gamerbee and watch how Haitani is able to use s.MP to beat a normal that should be utterly dominant against her.

6-4 is also still well within the realm of “skill match-up.” A better player will win a 6-4 match-up. Most of Makoto’s “6-4” match-ups are what a lot of people are calling 5.5-4.5 match-ups, even though IMO 6-4 describes that pretty well.

Realistically Makoto’s match-ups are worse on paper than they are in real life anyway. She is a character that has very stark limitations but it doesn’t matter much because she wins by taking advantage of human tendencies rather than by winning match-ups. Compare her to Cammy who just has tools that are very difficult for many characters to deal with… Makoto’s tools have very clear answers and counters but they aren’t always easy to use in the moment


#10

Every characters “numbers” change in any given situation in SFIV. Dhalsim vs. Yun is virtually 9-1 in Yun’s favor if he gets in. If Dhalsim gets a knockdown in into U1 that situation is in his favor, regardless of the matchup on the whole. Street Fighter has always been about putting your opponent into disadvantageous situations and the matchup may limit your options of creating that. It still doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Hugo can still put Sagat into shitty situations, it’s just hard for him to get there.

Makoto is always high on everyone’s list because her comeback factor is retarded. Hit > Mixup > Correct Read > Stun > Mixup > Correct Read > Death. Also, she is very good at making damage happen in a primarily defensively oriented game.

P.S. When XRD comes out I’m going to be primarily playing that and Dota 2. I’m hoping in Street Fighter 5 they remove absolute guard and reduce the reversal window. It’ll never happen though :frowning:


#11

Time for everyone to switch from Makoto to I-No !


#12

Ha! I-no is really sweet and I played her in accent core. I think I’m going to migrate to Potemkin though, even though he was nerfed in some ways. Still completely viable. So excited though.


#13

So basically she relies on the opponent being bad?

Because SRK beats most of her pressure, and a simple blocked combo can push makoto back into a zoning situation where she can do literally nothing I feel that she is definitely bottom 8 in consistency.

But hey, that’s why people go to casinos right? To win big, or lose your rent check trying.


#14

If you want a clear answer, she’s top tier because she’s a very strong rushdown character with great normals, multiple ways to change her air trajectory, a command grab and excellent damage / stun.
She put people in a very strong guessing game that tend to make her inconsistent in short sets but very strong when she can understand player habits.

You focus too much on the cases where you get shut down of your offence, ignoring the fact that the reward for the opponent guessing right is clearly not as good as when she is the one guessing right.


#15

That’s just it though, it’s much easier for the opponent to guess right. When makoto is on defense, or being zoned she has no options. She has to sit there and block. Take chip. Get zoned.

When her offense gets shut down she is literally just a punching bag for the opponent. That is why I’m saying she’s inconsistent. She requires the opponent to mess up to get in, but she then needs them to mess up AGAIN to do any damage. The opponents have plenty of opportunities to push her away, and chip safely, if not just flat punish her in the case of tsurugi.


#16

That’s just wrong, you’re totally underestimating her options.
She has a tough time on defense, but she has options, backdashing, focus backdashing, EX Karakusa, EX Oroshi, instant axekick are all usable defensive tools in their own rights. Most of them are risky, but a right guess will change the momentum heavily.

Her normals are also amazing to play defense. stMP is a hitbox wall that make people respect your space, crMK is one of the best anti air normal in the game, well timed stHK beat a lot of pressure strings.
If you feel yourself getting zoned badly, you need to vary your approaches, or be more patient. pick your moment.

I don’t see scenarios where she would be defenseless getting chiped to death beside a few matchups and if she was stuck in the corner without any ressources. But all characters would be bad in these scenarios.
And once she’s in, she has plenty of setups that she can run safely to catch people tendencies. Safejumps, safe meaties, axekicks that avoid reversals, option selects, etc…

She isn’t as unsafe as people like to think of her. You might be able to DP her out of pressure more often that some other rushdown characters, but do you really think gambling that will work enough time to kill her before she does ?


#17

It’s just wrong that SRK shuts her down, and puts her on the defensive where she has VERY little options while beating most of her offensive options in the same swoop?

If the opponent zones correctly makoto has no chance of getting in.
If you see her dash, just jab into a blockstring that pushes her back and chips.
If she jumps towards you just SRK anti-air(if you know the spacing.)
If she uses a normal to get close, just jab into that same blockstring for free chip/pushback.
If she went for anything risky during all of this you get free damage, and if not, free chip.

If you mess up, all it takes is one correct read to reset this situation, and you might not even take any damage from a missed read at these distances.

Makoto requires 2-3 reads with meter to get a stun, 3-4 without meter on most characters. If she’s forced to block then the opponent can avoid stun while zoning at the same time.

As long as the opponent plays safe, she cannot win. The opponent has to play risky and misread at least 2 times in a row for makoto to have a chance in most matchups.


#18

I think you just don’t understand how risk reward works in this game, and how rushdown character should be played then.
You’re just way too stubborn about this. Too bad.


#19

Ok then, I guess I’m just a scrub, thanks for the ad hominem.
Really opened my eyes.


#20

I’m seriously not saying this to treat you badly, but you have what is considered a “scrub mentality.” You’re blaming your experiences on the character and not yourself. There are players out there making good use of her tools. Watch videos. Ask questions. Makoto is a very hard character to master.