Tiger Construction: The *old* Matchup thread [we ran out of space]

sagat

#1

Here’s the new match up thread, if you guys want it, we can use this one since the last one was horribly outdated and/or wrong.

Match-ups

Based on event hubs tier chart

The Matchups:

Abel - 6/4

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[details=Spoiler]
Pro Tip: Do NOT throw Tiger shots or jump in when Abel has his ultra meter full.

From x Z 3 2 x:
I play against Abel the same way I play against Chun-Li. I am writing this, assuming that you have become proficient in performing your moves, techniques, strings, links, etc.

  1. Keep the distance and spacing correct and try to make him pay for his little mistakes even if it’s for some chip damage. Another important thing is to knock Abel down. If you have a Tiger Option available, use TK or TU.

… Abel doesn’t have any good jump-in strikes besides his cross-up.
Just Tiger Uppercut him out of the skies, or use s.:hk:/:r:+:hk: to control the air.
After you make it clear that you control the air, he’s going to be forced to roll. Don’t be afraid to pressure him with Low Tiger Shots. The trick is to distance yourself properly so that if he rolls, you can hit him right at the edge of your s.:lk: (Tiger Option). This is also the distance where he cannot command throw you, or throw you. So even if he rolls past a Tiger Shot, you have the option and correct distance to TK him safely. If he rolls close to you, just throw him or get out of the way.

  1. Once he’s got his Ultra meter. It is a good idea to become aggressive and attack him. The reason why I say this is because Abel has the ability to play Rock, Paper, Scissors with you. If he has the option to Ultra through your Tiger Shots. This, gives him the ability to become VERY aggressive. Abel’s attack options consist of all three CQB (Close Quarter Battle) attacks.

…Strike, Throw, and Command throw. Yes, he is like a mini-gief, except not as predictable because he can FADC out of certain moves. This usually poses as a threat after his :mk: dash-in or cross-up. Abel has way too many options to hurt you if he engages you with EX meter. So keep your eyes on that.

… Your throw will beat his command throw and strikes.
… Your c.:lp: will beat most of his strikes besides his s.:lp: because it’s 3 frames. So it’s even.
… Your TU will beat out everything besides his… block.
… However, if he’s looking for an EX option after his s.:mk: then you’re in trouble. That’s when you should get out of his way and give him the awkward silence. Let him know that he’s going to have to find his point of entry again.

STAY OUT OF THE CORNER!
Abel will mix you up all day with his cross-up, if you get caught in the corner. He can cross-up :mk: and CQB you to death. This is because his Tornado throw will throw you back in the corner. And since you cannot Quick Stand after a throw, he will be given the option to correctly time his cross-up every time he lands it on you.

Your main focus of this match is dependant on how well you can zone him (the obvious), and how well you can profit from hunting him down when he has his Ultra.

The reason why I say you should become more aggressive when he has his Ultra is because of your ability and ease to be more explosive/random with TU FADC. Unless he baits for it. Most Abel players land their Ultra through a poor Tiger Shot, or after c.:hp: to launch you.

Study it, and notice how most of the methods used to land his Ultra are from CQB FADC c.:hp:. While he can still c.:hp: you if you jump-in, it’s risky for Abel because Sagat’s j.:mp: is a good tool to stuff it out, possibly leading to TU FADC Ultra.

Last thoughts:

  1. Find the areas that he uses to play Rock, Paper, Scissors. Stop or avoid it.
  2. If he’s sitting comfortably in front of you, he’s in good rolling or cross-up distance.
  3. If you get caught by his c.:hp: roll c.:hp: roll combo. After the second roll, it’s rock, paper, scissors.
  4. Keep your rhythm, because it’s harder for Abel to keep his. Tiger Uppercut FADC is the best rhythm interrupter tool in the game. Use it wisely[/details]

Akuma - 5/5 [need data]

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Spoiler

Balrog (Boxer)- 6/4

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[details=Spoiler]
From Thegame4ever: This match is about keeping rog away, and if he comes close to make him wish he hadn’t. If a bit farther than midscreen throw low tiger shots and high to catch him when he tries to advance with headbutt, and if around midscreen throw slow and fast tigershots to mess his timing on his turnpunch. Watch out for his EX, you can either s.RH (doesn’t work on all his ex punches for two hits), medium kick tigerknee (breaks focus and hits ground), or my personal favourite backwards grab. Throw them to the other side to get your fireball pressure restarted, and make him work to close in again.

Up-close tigerknee pressure can be used to great effect against rog, his hitbox seems to be perfect, just standing far jab, tigerknee light, repeat. The standing far jab catches them if they try to jump (as opposed to standing light kick), hits them when crouching or standing, and is the correct distance for safe tiger knee. However if he blocks your tigerknee standing i believe you can be punished, so be cautious. In the corner he can be trapped with tiger knees, after each tiger knee or before you perform one, look out for ex headbutt and act accordingly. And don’t forget your TU deep, since it beats any jump-ins rog tends to use. Also word of advice, do not focus, if he is jabbing it will beat you, and many of his attacks break focus. Also when knocked down do not go for a cross, he can headbutt away safely. Simply attack him head on with an overhead, low lightkick, or grab, and watch out for his headbutt reversal.

Rog can also catch you with a dash ultra if you throw a tigershot and he anticipates it, so if he has an ultra do not be predicatable with tigershots and throw them sparsely.[/details]

Blanka - 6/4

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Spoiler

From theplaygroundlegend:
I’ll keep this short and sweet, because honestly, I have no idea why this was ever considered a bad match for sagat.

Like every character, find out of your opponent has a 3 frame move… Blanka does not. That means up close you can spam crouching lp into ts to push him back and there’s nothing he can do about it.

At the start of the match I dash backwards. This is the best way to start the match. Most blanka’s will do a lp blanka ball into grab, or start with a slide. If you back dash he can’t do either and he’s open for punishment. He also can’t jump in on you or do anything really. The reason why you don’t jump back is because on the way down you can be hit by a fierce blanka ball. Dash back is your best option.

During the match spam low ts’s, all day. Make blanka want to jump in - tiger uppercut him. That alone… is enough advice to never lose to blanka.

Punish his blanka balls with tu’s on reaction, the damage adds up. If you see an EX blanka ball coming, block high, punish with low EX ts.

If he does rainbow ball (comes at you in an arc motion) you can focus, dash up and combo him - or block, then raw ultra him. Depending on the distance, the rainbow ball can be a cross up - but can be punished the same. Just block accordingly.

if your tiger uppercut reaction timing is weak, you can focus attack jump ins because blanka jumps high, and his roundhouse puts his long feet out first. By the time you absorb the hit, and he lands, you have already released focus and he’s crumpled.

Like most matches, do not jump. Especially in this matchup.

Do not cross him up on wakeup, the noob will spam punch and shock you or blanka ball with up + kick for a hit.

All you have to do is zone, and when he’s in slide distance, fake tiger shots. As much as you can focus attack and punish a slide, I wouldn’t hold focus at slide distance, too many of blanka’s moves do armor break and he also has that dash move where he hops in your face and can grab you before you can release focus (fwd + 3 punch). Also, depending on the distance of the slide, it’s safe on focus. Only a deep slide can be punished with a focus attack. It’s just not worth focusing in this matchup really when you have so many better options to choose from.

Blanka’s ultra is a joke unless your opponent can do the ambigous cross up ultra on your wakeup. But, then again, I only met 1 person who could do this right. This is how you block the normal ultra.

  1. startup: block low because the ground is shocked - you don’t take damage at this point, but you get stunned and can’t move.

  2. 2nd phase: block high, this is when the blanka ball ultra leaves the ground. If you block low you will get hit.

  3. 3rd phase: block low again

  4. Punish with your ultra right back.

Also - a lot of people get chipped to death from blanka’s ultra. If you have ultra, you can ultra him back for free. Do your ultra so you can hit him when the blanka ball is in the air, go to training mode and practice this. You will never lose to him again.

From Remixnzza:
Blankas love to do River Run (that slide move) so when you’re in that range, use focus to absorb -> free ultra. Smart Blankas will use ball to break your focus, so be prepared to cancel out of it. To land the focus, wait till he hits you with the slide, then wait an extra second before releasing. If you release too early, you will whiff.

Also, Blankas love to do full screen EX-ball hoping to catch you in the middle of a TS. If you block high, then do reversal EX-TS, it is a guarantee hit. The timing is strict, and you MUST block high. Blocking low doesn’t work because you will still be in hit stun. This has something to do with the fact that when you block high your hit box size changes, and Blanka’s ball hits at a different active frame, thus giving you enough time to get the EX-TS off before he recovers.

Also, if Blanka does Ultra at point-blank range, you can use EX-TU to get over it and not take the chip damage. Sometimes you can even trade, but the timing for trading is difficult.

From TheGame4Ever:
For ambiguous cross-up, there’s a Blanka player here that does it nearly every time. After a forward throw, walks up a bit and unleashes ultra. It’s a 50/50 mixup, you can’t tell where it’s going really, you can try guessing, but sometimes what was a cross before at the same distance isn’t now. I was in training with this Blanka trying it out and I couldn’t guess correctly each time no matter how many times we did it, it truly is 50/50. If you’re in that situation and you have an EX bar try ex shoryuken to get out since you don’t want to get caught in guessing, but sometimes the ex shoryuken goes out the direction the ultra was going, and you’ll be hit by his ultra on the way down.

Also for a blocked ultra, to punish with most damage, after you’ve blocked low then high, block low again, and as soon as his last hits finish with the ultra and you’re in a crouching poisition, f+rh twice immediately then ultra for maximum punish. You have to be in a crouching position at the end of his ultra or your f+rh won’t connect. And if no ultra, just f+rh twice ex hado etc.

Cammy - 6/4

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[details=Spoiler]
From r00ster: if she cannon drills from far away do a focus attack and just tiger uppercut her aerials. That should about do it if you get a trade or a focus crumple you can take 30%+ from poor old cammy. Be careful about using to many tiger shots if she focuses one and then does her ultra and catches you it can hurt
From PGL:
HOLD BLOCK

You are probably getting fucked up by jab jab short spiral arrow cannon spike, cancel, cannon spike nonsense. just fucking block!

  1. Throw low tiger shots all day, make her jump, DP her.
  2. Don’t jump in at her, she has a DP move.
  3. Hooligan throw: HOLD DOWN BACK, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO YOU. PROMISE!!!
  4. Bait random cannon spikes.
  5. “The only consistent thing I’ve seen is punishing her Cannon Drill with a tiger uppercut.” no shit, your TU is an anti-air. her cannon drill comes from the sky (might have the terms mixed up, but i think spiral arrow is low, cannon spike is a dp, and cannon drill is that aerial looking spiral arrow).
  6. I assume you’re playing on xbox live and getting whooped up on… That being the case, don’t try to throw her, the kid on the other end of the interwebs is mashing DP whenever you’re close and you keep getting hit… block!
  7. When you block her super and ultra, block low.

From Neemo6: Kara tu (hk version) connects after blocked cannon spike. [/details]

Chun Li - 6/4

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[details=Spoiler]
From Thegame4ever:
You win the fireball war hands down, and ChunLi has a nice high jump giving you plenty of time to react to a TU. Up close chuns after throwing a fireball or seeing you throw one like to do flip kick over hadouken and hit you. If a Chun is up close I keep focusing and backdashing. If they happen to flip kick you can give em your focus combo of choice, even if it’s EX. Just keep zoning for the first part of the match. The second part is when they have ultra, meaning you can’t zone as well as you like. An important thing to pay attention to when they have ultra is if they walk forward. This means they have lost the charge to perform an ultra, so in this case throw your hadouken, most chuns relish the fact the opponents dont throw any hadoukens at all when they have ultra, but show them you know exactly when to throw it and they’ll start to just camp and not walk, meaning it’s time for you to attack. On knockdown if Chun has no meter it’s free pressure, but if she has meter try to bait her EX spinning kick by doing an early empty jump as a cross, jumping neutral MK, or doing a short, then blocking. You can either sweep to continue okizeme pressure, or tiger uppercut.[/details]

Crimson Viper - 5/5

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[details=Spoiler]
From PlayGroundLegend: I start each round off with a jumping fierce punch in her direction. Now, I never start off with a move in a match unless it’s:

I normally just walk back casually and assess the situation.

In this match up it makes sense. I like to stay close to her. If you’re far away she has more options, sorta like Akuma. You can try to fireball her when she seismo’s full screen, but it could be a fake seismo feint into mahvel jump flame kick. So I take the guessing out of the match, and rush her down.

So, if my jumping fierce punch meets her in the air, I’m close and I already did damage, sweet. If she’s on the ground and blocks, it’s st.lk into knee / ts. Or if hits her on the ground, combo her. 99% of vipers walk back off the start or jump in the air trying to get a quick knock down. They usually don’t expect a sagat jump in.

I always approach each match as follows. Does the player have a 3 frame move? http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/...)#Frame_Data no she does not :slight_smile: that means, up close I have the advantage.

Her advantage up close is that she has hella safe block strings and you can’t focus attack her up close for fear of thunder knuckle. Sorta like how you can’t charge focus in front of sagat because you will eat a fat tiger knee to your dome piece. The viper cop out up close is an ex seismo that leaves you invincible - and most scrubs want to punish it, throw out a limb, get caught, get ultra’d.

Her best options are when you are on the ground. This starts the “ambiguous cross-up” flame kick bullshit. Basically, if she does the head shock, and stands still, then flame kicks, it will hit in front of you, block normally. If she takes a step back, or forward, it’s a cross up flame kick. It’s hard to judge it if you try to look at the move because the fire effect makes seeing anything fucking impossible, so you have to study the character in order to know how to beat her, like fuerte, shit is stupid. That’s why when people say I’m lame for playing sagat I tell them to eat a dick because I had to learn matchups, so I know how to play 8 other characters proficiently. There are some things match videos and forum posts won’t teach you. Spacing.

You need to learn her block strings, and you can’t mash DP during them, just don’t do it. If there was ever a match where you don’t want to get caught mashing DP it’s this one, and seth, both characters are stun machines. It’s not worth it. http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=175007 read this thread.

I know you really want to, but you can’t use tiger uppercut in this match, unless it’s a kara dp with meter or a random dp with meter trying to land your ultra. If she jumps in, she can always spam flame kick and move out of the way, you basically have to guess if a DP would work or not, and if you guess wrong you eat a combo for stun damage, and then you’re on the ground, leading to more combos and more stun till you see birdies.

The majority of her combos start low, but viper has an overhead attack, so you can’t just crouch block all day. Thing is, the overhead is slow as shit and you see it coming from a mile away. The match up ends up being sorta like a cammy match where you are crouch blocking strings, and guessing when to tech a throw, guess wrong get combo’d, block wrong get thrown on the floor. So the best bet is to be putting the pressure on yourself, and not letting the skinny skank put pressure on you.

Also, F.rh is amazing in this match, because the hoe always wants to jump, but you can’t DP her - and she knows it. She has properties like rufus, gief, honda that make double f.rh almost a 100% constant if you land the first f.rh. You can just throw out random f.rh and be safe with it, because if you throw out f.rh and you end up close enough to her, you can TU on recovery and cancel to safety or cancel into ultra. I would also avoid laggy normals in this matchup. I prefer cr.mp > cr.mk in this match because it comes out as quickly as standing lk and faster than cr.mk. Normally Im a cr.mk kinda guy.

Her best ultra setup is in the corner. I think it’s ex seismo, flame kick, land, ultra. That’s her version of TU fadc ultra. Always be on the look out for that. Also, if you jump in at her, and she uppercuts you, she can uppercut you clean - then ultra you, or trade - dash up and ultra you - or just DP you 2x in a row. So when you get in the corner people always get caught with an ultra one way or the other. Guys get scared, and want to jump out - DP’d ultra. Others try to TS her back or throw out a mk etc. - ex seismo flame kick ultra. Others hold crouch block all day, get cross up flame kicked into ultra too. Just block, perhaps EX knee out of there and grab her - put her in the corner, then reset the match.

I also like to play like an asshole at full screen. I spam fake kicks, jump around back and forth, hold focus, dash out, hold focus release it. Spam crouch. Just do a bunch of stupid shit with my buttons. Basically, I mimic my opponent who’s spamming seismo feints as if to say “You aren’t fooling me, this is how dumb you look - now come fight me pussy.” Also, I never really TS in this match. If I’m really “feeling myself” against a viper player in a tourney, I’ll stop my pressure and throw 3 tiger shots in a row, the kinda that once your first is finished, the 2nd one comes out. The predictable kind. Once I throw the third, I never throw another for the rest of the match. Also, at full screen, they are used to me doing my stupid shit and not tossing fireballs, sometimes it’s not bad if you have the health lead to throw a low EX ts. If she seismo’s you trade, and the trade is in your favor damage wise - and health wise because she has 900 and you have 1200. It’s a win from both perspectives.

If your opponent keeps doing cr.mk into thunder knuckle, just wait it out, it recovers really quick, and does a shit ton of stun. They can do this 3-4x in a row if they feel like it, just block, don’t mash dp, you will get caught.[/details]

**Dan - 7/3 **

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[details=Spoiler]
From theplaygroundlegend:

Dan isn’t as bad as people make him out to be, he actually owns dhalsim free, whereas it’s a bit harder for sagat haha; but against sagat the battle is hopelessly in sagat’s favor. There are some things you need to know though.

To beat him, just zone him. Nothing else. Dan’s silly looking fireball can’t compete with sagat at all. Punish jump ins with s.rh or tiger uppercut. Do not focus in his face as his hurricane kick breaks focus. Do not jump in at him because he has a DP.

Dan can land ultra from a combo, cr. forward into ex fireball links his ultra. Watch out for that. His ultra goes through fireballs as well. His ultra CAN BE FOCUS ATTACKED which is hilarious! Also, he can ultra cancel his super taunt. That’s when he has full super bar, uses it for a taunt, then goes right into ultra whenever he feels like it because you wanted to punish him.

basically, if he gets in on you, you did something wrong. This match comes down to basics. Fireball, uppercut. If you can fireball and uppercut you will never lose. Just watch out for those unknown ultra tricks I just showed you.

Kinda pointless to mention in a sagat thread as he should never be able to do this on you… but he can do lk hurricane kick, hit you safely with 1 hit from it on block, then go for a grab.[/details]

Dhalsim - 5/5

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[details=Spoiler]
From Thegame4ever:
Ahh this can be a very annoying match. You have to use all your concentration and play very carefully. I tend to turtle and use EX tiger shot when I see a yoga flame for my damage. If he yoga flames only time you should throw tiger shot is with EX. If he jumps do not use TU since he will most likely try to bait and teleport. Your goto anti-air with dhalsim is f+hk. He’ll most likely teleport back to avoid your roundhouse, simply standing roundhouse on his way down, or just block, since at that range his attacks will beat out your f+rh but not s.rh. If he teleports behind you when you f+rh, just standing rh should hit him. Throw dumb uppercuts sometime, but the dhalsim player if good won’t just randomly throw his limbs. S.rh can beat his air-to-ground attack with his limbs clean, but the dhalsim player can catch on and use his air kick later to beat your s.rh clean, so you have to be careful. Also for tigerkneed teleports, standing mp will beat him clean, and allow you to pressure. If he does ultra just jump away and don’t take that shit, and if he teleports behind you jump over that ultra, you do not need to block it. If you block his super at close range you can punish with TU, if not close it’s safe on block for him, so be careful. His ultra has nearly instant recovery, so don’t jump at him when he does it, simply away, wait it out. If he does it close range and you have no option but to block, he’ll go for low high mixup, his high being jumping arms, or low being his low distance arm attack, or simply pressure you upclose. He can’t grab you if you’re blocking ultra don’t forget, so just pay attention to sim and the mixups he’ll do. Also annoying thing is when he throws a yoga fire on your okizeme, then teleports. He can either teleport behind you, or teleport in a way that’s makes you block as if it’s a cross, but the yoga flame pushes you BEHIND dhalsim’s teleport area, making it something you have to block normal again. Be very careful of this move, it can be very annoying to block correctly, but if you start playing the match you’ll adapt to which is the cross or his fake cross.

If you manage to score a knockdown all you need is standing light kick, hard kick hadouken. Dhalsim loves to teleport to escape from pressure, if he teleports he gets hit by hadouken on recovery, if not he gets hadouken chip damage, and more pressure afterwards. Win-Win for you, and mix this up with jump-ins. Dhalsim will tend to stop teleporting on wakeup after you hit him with hadoukens from this setup. And never jump on dhalsim if he’s open, and if you do do it sparsely with jumping fierce. All his anti-air options can beat you clean, and his slide can be really annoying making you whiff entirely then punishing you. And do not do tigerknee pressure a lot, only once then another blockstring ending with low hadouken, since he can escape the pressure and punish you with one of his moves (not exactly sure what it is called, but compare it to ryu’s low middle kick). Play very patiently, hit the combos where it matters most, and EX tiger shot him for every yoga flame he does.[/details]


#2

E. Honda - 7/3

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[details=Spoiler]
From PlayGroundLegend:

  1. Some Honda’s will turtle at the opposite side of the screen, keep their charge, and wait for you to do something, when you do that “something” they just hit 1 button, countered lol. You have to be patient to play Honda. I noticed he would stand in the corner and whif oicho throw, not until the 5th time I played him did I notice that it gives him super meter (yeah I’m slow). When I’d throw a TS, he would focus it, and dash back. And continue to build meter. So basically in 25 seconds he has ultra and close to super. Then he starts to approach me. DANGEROUS!!

1a. Honda’s ultra goes through tiger shots from 3/4 screen. Don’t throw TS from that distance.

1b. Honda’s super goes through tiger shots from 3/4 screen. Don’t throw TS from that distance,

Disclaimer: It could be my imagination but I think either his super or ultra goes farther than the other, again I am saving my write up for after tuesday (have a big test I gotta take) and I’ll do my own research, in the mean time, u guys check that out.

Solution: Oicho throw whiffs have a long recovery. So what I did was this. Go to the other corner of the screen, crouching like I’m gonna throw TS. Instead of throwing TS’s all day and playing into his strategy I did this. I ONLY threw a ts when I saw him whiff oicho for meter, otherwise he just focus absorbed my TS and gains meter and he’s too far away for me to hit him and get that life down.

  1. Honda’s jumping neutral fierce punch looks like he moves a bit forward in the air while doing it. Sorta like gief’s crouching medium kick, or sagats crouching medium kick. He can perform a move, and move at the same time, allowing him to close in safely.

Solution: Although I lost my match in the 3on3 tourney, I did do 1 smart thing so I couldn’t look completely embarrassed. When you throw a low TS, honda can neutral jump fierce punch, when you throw a high tiger shot he will duck. I trained weaksauce to jump everytime I threw a low tiger shot. So I did the following. Low tiger shot, FADC, forward round house, forward round house BUT unfortunantely I couldn’t land the ultra because honda fell in such a way that he was too far away for the ultra to connect so I didn’t execute the ultra combo, I never got another chance to use it and I lost the round and the match but I still got a chance to do 1 smart thing at least.

Tip: FADC’ing low ts’s is crucial in this matchup, if you were looking for an excuse to use this trick for a practical purpose outside of mind games, you now have it.

  1. Honda’s jump in fierce punch seems to beat standing Hark kick, sorta like how giefs jump in fierce beats standing hard kick, however, I am not sure if this is distance specific. Also, a good honda will jump in fierce punch at a safe distance, this is trouble. What do I mean? He jumps in from close enough that F. RH can’t hit him, and standing RH will get stuffed BUT it’s too far away to do a tiger uppercut (if you do you’ll wiff it), honda’s jumping fierce has a long reach. When he lands, he’s in your face, now you have to do the hard battle. You are in range for all of his charge attacks, standing round house (that low far reaching kick) or if you’re in the corner, prepare for slap spam or a take down.

Possible solution?: Tiger knee? someone check that.

  1. When you are knocked down, you have a few things you need to consider:

4a. Will I be grabbed?

Standard counters apply, just tech or TU if you know he is gonna do it for sure. Best bet is option select… BUT! read below.

4b. Will I be jabbed then combo’d with hundred hand slap FADC oicho/hundred hand slap. Or jabbed, blocked, then oicho thrown?

You try to option select but you get hit with his jab since he didn’t go for the throw, after the hit you get oicho thrown. back to the floor again :frowning: Or you get jabbed, hundred hand slapped, FADC more hundred hand slaps / oicho.

You try to ride it out and not do anything, he jabs, you block it, you get oicho thrown after the blocked jab.

4c. Will I be head butted?

If you try to option select tech, your crouching short comes out, and you eat a safe EX head butt from up close. Back to the floor again.

4d. Will I be butt smashed on wake up?

You try to option select tech, your crouching short comes out, you eat butt smash first hit on the way up, then get hit again on the way down. Back to the floor… again :frowning:

4e. Will I be butt smashed with the 2nd hit coming down as I wake up?

He does the butt smash while you are still on the floor, so as you wake up you have to judge if the 2nd hit coming down is going to be a forward hit or a cross up.

Solution: Didn’t test this 100% but you can just focus and dash out. BUT there’s a problem with that, see the next point I make.

4f. You wake up - and try to back dash so you can’t be thrown, jabbed, oicho’d BUT you now eat an EX head butt (possible standard head butt) for free :frowning:

Back to the point I made in 4e. If you focus the 2nd hit of the butt slam, and dash forward or back - we have found out that dashing is not safe and you will eat a head butt (again, not sure if it’s only ex or any head butt that will hit you).

4g. Ok, you’re pissed off, you think to yourself “ok, if I neutral jump I can’t get head butted, grabbed, combo’d, oicho’d, tick thrown… I’m gonna do it!” Guess what? You just got butt slammed. Honda’s butt slam goes up and out at a 45 degree angle, then it comes down for the 2nd hit. The first hit of the butt slam will knock you out of the air.

Solution: I got so frustrated that I took my hands off of the arcade stick, turned my chair so I was facing Kevin, and basically (while the game was still going) ranted on the stuff you just read, but then it hit me. If you want to get away from Honda, you need to jump TOWARDS Honda, weird huh? Kevin smiled as if to say now you get it. What I mean is this, if he is close to you on wake up, cross him up. Not 100 percent safe but it’s the most effective. If you jump over him, he can’t butt slam you, he can’t anti air LP head butt you, he can’t grab you, tick throw you, oicho throw you AND best of ALL, he loses his charge.

4h. You decide to just sit there and block. You then get tossed, oicho tossed, cross up splash, over head. etc.

Solution: Don’t just sit there, do something. I don’t condone doing things for no reason, but turtling when Honda is in your face is gonna get you hurt.

These above problems make the matchup similar to gief, if you get knocked on the ground you gotta ride it out and analyze your opponents tendencies.

  1. Do not jump in at Honda unless you plan on crossing him up. His light punch head butt acts like a DP, it’s great anti air.

  2. You are in a bad spot. You have room behind you to get clear of Honda’s up close game. You decide to jump back. GUESS WHAT? You just ate a head butt.

Solution: If you do decide to jump back, I found that jump back medium kick would safely (with proper timing) stuff the head butt for free, except there is still a problem. Head butt moves Honda forward, so you are still in the same scenario you were in a second ago - except now there is less room to retreat back to AND you are about to get skull fucked by Honda’s corner game (for those who don’t know Honda’s corner game is the equivalent of Sagat’s long range game, you get what I’m saying?).

  1. Tiger knee is your friend from medium range.

  2. Standing light kick into low tiger shot is your friend from closer than medium range, but further than up close footsies game. (Saw mago spamming the above whenever in that situation).

  3. Honda is one of the easiest players to land a forward round house on, if not the easiest. If your opponent decides to jump towards you after a low TS, instead of jumping neutral and fierce punching, do your forward round house (of course he has to be at the right distance).

Tip: Honda, for some reason, once he eats a forward round house you have a 99.9% chance of landing a 2nd forward round house for free, this can follow up into an ultra combo, low EX ts, EX knee.

  1. Honda does a medium punch or fierce punch head butt - you block it. He is not safe! A kara canceled Forward hard kick into TU will hit him, you need to do the kara version because it makes the range of the uppercut bigger. You cannot punish EX head butt - that is safe on block, this does not work for lp head butt either (judge the punch based on the speed that Honda is moving at). Here is a video of Mago doing this.

Video:

Tip: f.lk kara is not the same as f.hk kara TU, you need to use the f.hk kara tu for this to work properly.

#10 is taken from the “punishing Honda’s blocked head butt” thread seen here:

Thread: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=197885[/details]

El Fuerte - 6/4

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From PlayGroundLegend: You want to be close to him, and corner him. he needs space to start his run into splash / grab. If you constantly walk forward, he’s kinda fucked. Then you get him in the corner. You wanna corner him like you corner seth, control the space and keep him contained, but don’t let him jump off the wall to safety.

Your options on wake up are as follows:

  1. Focus attack - if he does splash you can back dash out. if he does grab you’re fucked.
  2. Block, if you block properly you can punish a splash with TU fadc f.rh ultra. If he does grab you’re fucked. I have the most luck with this if it’s a cross up splash and I see it coming, it depends on how close he is to you on wake up, if he’s very close his splash will cross you up, block appropriately, and punish.
  3. Jump back - if he does splash you take less damage because you’re airborne. That, and when you get hit, you get knocked to the other side of the screen, so you can wake up in a proper fashion.

Fuerte is either gonna do a running slide, run up to you and grab you, run up to you and do the infinite, run up and splash, run up and tortilla splash grab or run up to you and mix you up with jabs and shorts - possibly overhead.

If fuerte has ultra. DO NOT:

  1. Throw a fireball close to him
  2. Jump in at him
  3. Press focus for any reason
  4. No fireballs on wake up for chip damage either [/details]

Fei Long - 6/4

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From PlayGroundLegend: Fei long is another easy matchup. Zone him because he does not have fireballs, make sure to block the chicken wing high, do not try to grab after chicken wing as most players do the flame kick after chicken wing… block it and punish with b&b ultra. crouching FP and MP are your best friends. They stuff his rekka combo. standing round house isn’t godlke in this match up (OH NO lol). tiger knee his ass for free. Fei long gets his level 2 focus extremely fast, and he has more range than your focus attack. use your own focus attack sparingly. DO not mash TU during the rekka combo as some players are smart enough to stop the rekka, block your TU, and land an ultra or some other combo. Know your frame data! Sagat’s crouching LP comes out in 3 frames, crouching lk comes out in 4 frames. Start your footsies with crouching lp, then cancel into low tiger shot. This will push him away from you (what you want). You can follow up with standing round house, then tiger knee to push him back even further, then jump back and start fireballing him again. I try not to footsie fei long much because of his frame data. Fei has no reliable way to land an ultra, so when you see he has revenge meter, do not be concerned with it. His only viable way to land it is through focus attack or a combo in the corner (and he’s lucky if he gets to land every hit of the ultra at that!).[/details]

Gen - 6/4 [need data]

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Gouken - 6/4

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From Thegame4ever:
Gouken is not to be messed with. His hadoukens can keep pace with your Hard Punch tiger shots, he has great speed and recovery. His downfall in that case however, is that he can only throw one hadouken at you at a time and not EX, so take advantage of that to EX him for damage or chip. Imo I’ve won the match when I have a lead and I’m throwing hadoukens full screen. Most likely they’ll EX demon flip, watch out for it and TU, if trade hit F+RH ultra etc. Be careful when crossing him up since Gouken’s like to parry. Try to cross over with an attack that won’t hit cross (like Sagat’s j.mk) and when Gouken parries and whiffs go for a short short combo or TU that whiff. Watch out for that throw Gouken players always go for, you do not want to eat that damage. And if he does Shoryuken punch or shoryuken EX punch and it hits close, you can punish with TU each time. Most Goukens use this to go through your tigershots, so if he’s kind of close pay attention and throw them sparsely. Also if you performed a shoruyken close (say in a focus combo) and dash cancel forward+rh it will whiff, so simply dash cancel ultra.

From EmblemLord:He can’t keep up with High shots at all. Sagat throws them faster AND recovers faster. TK absolutely wrecks his Demon flip as well. On knockdown you can dominate if you play smart. Meaty TK will wreck counter and empty cross-ups really mess with his game. Also F+hk has a different timing vs every character. Gouken is one of the harder characters to hit with it, but it can be done.

Guile - 7/3 [need data]

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From PlayGroundLegend: Tiger shots all day. Way quicker than guile’s sonic boom.

Guile has to charge to fire, sagat doesn’t GG SCRUB hehe.

Anyway. If you’re losing it’s probably because he’s jumping over your fireballs. which means you need to work on your BASICS.

  1. There is a safe distance to throw a TS, and an unsafe distance where an opponent can jump in for free. Throw tiger shots from a safe distance. Also, standing tiger shots recover faster than crouching tiger shots, throw high shots when you’re in a fireball war - with any character. So if he’s tossing sonic booms - use fierce punch tiger shots, your next tiger shot should be a round house (hard kick) tiger shot aka low tiger shot. This is because guile’s will charge while holding down, and in order for guile to sonic boom he will need time to charge, if you throw a high tiger shot at this point it won’t hit him because he’s ducking and charging.

  2. Guile’s crouching fierce (anti air where he punches up while crouching) is one of the best moves in the game, it stuffs everything. Do not jump in at him. Also, he can air grab you. stay on the ground.

  3. Guile’s ultra blows kak - do not fear it. ever. for any reason. it’s awful.

  4. Guile will throw slow booms, walk behind them, expect you to focus attack his boom - and then do that backhand swing punch. i think it’s F. Fierce but im not sure - doesn’t matter, it’s the punch where he pivots his foot and swings his torso - arm at you - long range punch. Do not focus his slow booms, it’s like the chun-li matchup. They want you to do that.

  5. keep your eye on his super meter. EX booms are decent. Don’t get caught in a fireball fight predictably throwing shot after shot if he has 2 meters, you will get caught. When you see he has 2 meters “feint” fireballs. which means fake out like you’re gonna throw a tiger shot. You can do this by crouching or throwing out random normals like jab or crouching short etc. When sagat throws a low TS he crouches first. So if you just crouch and hit short or jab it can fake out your opponent, and you can just block the boom. Now, he can obviously ex boom off of 1 meter, but I say two because if he has an extra to burn, and one in the bank - for sure he’s gonna throw one out.

  6. Guile, like most of the cast has no answer for tiger knee. if he’s at close distance, and there’s no sonic boom in front of him, just knee the shit out of him.

  7. Guile’s flash kick blows - you can cross him up all day if you’re up close and tic throw him.

  8. Guile’s crouching round house is the worsttttttttttt moveeeeeeeeeeee in the game. It’s the one where he spins around on the ground and hits you twice. If you see a guile do this move - and you DO NOT have ultra, just focus attack the first hit and release / dash back. OR If your reaction is slow, block the first kick, Focus attack the 2nd kick, release, dash back. IF YOU HAVE ULTRA, just ultra his stupid ass. either before / during the first kick or if you block the first kick, do it while his slow ass is going for the 2nd kick.

ADDED BY NEMSYS_SYNDROME:
Guile’s crouching HK is the worst move. When he pulls that first kick out, you have almost endless possibilities as to what you can do before he connects with the second kick. You can…

  1. Tiger Upper out.
  2. lk. Tiger Knee
  3. Special
  4. Ultra
  5. Focus Attack (Not more than Level 2)
  6. FA > Backdash to keep safe

Ken - 6/4 [need data]

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M. Bison (Dictator) - 6/4 [need data]

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Rose - 6/4

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From Tiberious:
If she’s a slide-happy player (alot online are, since they think it’s free blockstring into cr.MP xx Soul Spiral), turn punishing badly-placed slides into a religion. cr.MP xx LTS will either hit if they tried to follow up, or make them block low and push them back. Tiger Knee will not hit fully on the slide, so this isn’t an option.

When she has Ultra, stay grounded, and don’t throw any naked fireballs without having the ability to FADC. A competent Rose will Shamwow you every time.

If they jump in with FP (the circular scarf motion in the air), TU that for the trade. It will hurt her alot more than it will you, especially if it gave you Ultra or have it stored. Rose’s funky hitboxes strike again, and in the corner, you will not be able to get the full Ultra juggle, so factor that into consideration.

Most Roses I run into won’t try to reflect or absorb fireballs, and for good reason. Your Tiger Shot game > her Soul Reflect game. She not only has to time hers to your strength, but also your height.

From Emblemlord:She loses badly from far away and if you have your spacing down you can double f+hk her jump ins on pure reaction, making her take a huge chunk of damage and stun. She has better footsies though thanks to st. forward, f+ hk, cr. strong and st. hk. Slide is used to get in but dies to FA. Don’t whore FA’s though because she can fish for them and then Spiral you. Well spaced slides will give her frame advantage on block or let her combo if they hit. So don’t do anything dumb if you block a well spaced slide like try to jump because more then likely you will just eat cr. strong into spiral.

Spirals themselves are pretty unsafe, but hard to punish when well spaced. Usually if they are mis spaced just go for cr. jab into fierce TU or low shot if you just wanna be safe. If they did it really really close then you can do cr. strong > fierce TU FADC > w/e.

Rose has good grab range and that’s where she gets about 90% of her damage so make sure you have mastered your option select techs.

BTW Rose is damn near free on her wake-up.


#3

Rose - 6/4

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From Tiberious:
If she’s a slide-happy player (alot online are, since they think it’s free blockstring into cr.MP xx Soul Spiral), turn punishing badly-placed slides into a religion. cr.MP xx LTS will either hit if they tried to follow up, or make them block low and push them back. Tiger Knee will not hit fully on the slide, so this isn’t an option.

When she has Ultra, stay grounded, and don’t throw any naked fireballs without having the ability to FADC. A competent Rose will Shamwow you every time.

If they jump in with FP (the circular scarf motion in the air), TU that for the trade. It will hurt her alot more than it will you, especially if it gave you Ultra or have it stored. Rose’s funky hitboxes strike again, and in the corner, you will not be able to get the full Ultra juggle, so factor that into consideration.

Most Roses I run into won’t try to reflect or absorb fireballs, and for good reason. Your Tiger Shot game > her Soul Reflect game. She not only has to time hers to your strength, but also your height.

From Emblemlord:She loses badly from far away and if you have your spacing down you can double f+hk her jump ins on pure reaction, making her take a huge chunk of damage and stun. She has better footsies though thanks to st. forward, f+ hk, cr. strong and st. hk. Slide is used to get in but dies to FA. Don’t whore FA’s though because she can fish for them and then Spiral you. Well spaced slides will give her frame advantage on block or let her combo if they hit. So don’t do anything dumb if you block a well spaced slide like try to jump because more then likely you will just eat cr. strong into spiral.

Spirals themselves are pretty unsafe, but hard to punish when well spaced. Usually if they are mis spaced just go for cr. jab into fierce TU or low shot if you just wanna be safe. If they did it really really close then you can do cr. strong > fierce TU FADC > w/e.

Rose has good grab range and that’s where she gets about 90% of her damage so make sure you have mastered your option select techs.

BTW Rose is damn near free on her wake-up.

Rufus - 6/4

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From Death By Nines:
Sagat has a very easy time against Rufus, provided he shuts him out and is always aware of Rufus’ dive-kick range. As a Sagat player, you want Rufus full screen away from you the whole match, where most of his shenanigans are completely ineffective. When zoned, a good Rufus will try the following options to get in your grill:

  • Evade your TS with well spaced dive-kicks. This is pretty much all he can do at full screen range to close the distance. Mix up HP and HK TS with LP and LK TS to keep him on his toes. Also, you can kara TK (with f.HK of course) when he does neutral jump dive-kicks.

-At mid-screen range, he’ll most likely try to A) use cr.HP to interrupt your TS’ sequence, B) use HP Galactic Tornado to absorb your fireball and hopefully get some damage in, or get close enough to start his dive-kick mix-ups, C) jump over your fireball and land with j.HP.

-In response to A) just block. His recovery on cr.HP (dunno frames) is too much for you to worry about him trying an immediate follow-up. As for B) If you notice he absorbs your fireball with Galactic Tornado, block immediately. After you block successfully, jump back HP. It stops the dive-kick mix-up attempt, evades random ultra, and puts you in a relatively safe position. Do NOT try to TU him after a blocked Galactic Tornado… his recovery is almost instant and he can just block it and have you at his mercy when you land. In response to C) TU or st.HK. Knock him out of the air clean. TU is much safer, because even if it trades it’s in your favour. Trading with st.HK is more beneficial for him.

At mid-screen, well timed TKs can effectively crush his ground game as well. It stuffs his Galactic Tornado, as well as his d/f.MK.

If Rufus manages to get a knockdown on you, things can get a bit trickier… ESPECIALLY if it’s in the corner. He has a wealth of options here and if he’s got EX meter and Ultra, he’s even more dangerous. It’s all about keeping a level head when he’s trying to rush your shit down. What you wanna do is block. Block block block block, and block some more till you find an opening to exploit. Escaping Rufus’ rushdown is a case of playing a reactionary game, the second you see a gap in the attack, you have to punish.

[media=youtube]Bvh7ReU9-pQ[/media] vid is a very good example of how to shut Rufus down. Mago does an exemplary job here.

From PlayGroundLegend:

  • did this at a tournament. If you are raping some fool with ts’s all day, they will get impatient and guess with galactic tornado to close the gap.
  1. no ultra: tiger uppercut him - or knee him to get him on the other side of the stage whereas TU is raw damage.

  2. you have ultra… raw ultra his stupid ass.

Ryu - 5/5 [need data]

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Sagat - 5/5

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From djKun:
Sagat vs. Sagat

There’s 2 kinds of fight you’ll end up having in here. The full screen range fights and the medium-close screen fights as compared to the other fireball character mirror matches, Sagat mirror match fire ball wars is litterally its own dynamic game.


Full Screen range fights:

Ideally you want to gain the life lead (even if its chip damage) and match the other Sagat's fireball with yours to negate the fireballs thus leaving no harm to both sides (while you still have the life lead of course). You'll need the stradegy, mindtricks (to some extent) plus ultimately, the patients.

Consider 2 things: the speed of the fireball and whether its a HTS or a LTS.

Most people usually do Fierce/Roundhouse fireballs as its fast and stuff. However once you start changing the speed of the fireballs (that isn't fierce/roundhouse) it actually changes the flow and pace of the game.

== With a fixed speed (using 1 set of fireballs with roundhouse and fierce only) ==

-Point 1: HTS usually beats out LTS. HTS has faster recovery (making it the best fireball actually) then LTs thus you can recover fast enough to block and take a small chip damage.

-Point 2: LTS doesn't have as fast of a recovery like HTS (same recovery speed of a hadouken actually) and your hitbox increases during your recovery frame so you will eat a fireball.

Point 1 and 2 is true ONLY if both Sagats are throwing fireballs at the same time.

Depending on the frame difference, when you throw it etc, both Sagats may throw a fireball at the same time and they will both eat the fireballs regardless of which fireball you pick.

However

LTS can beat HTS if it is done correctly. not a hard thing to do really, you just need good timing. You can LTS against a HTS and completely avoid eating a HTS but you may or may not hit the other person.

To do this, you must wait for the HTS to come to you for a little bit then do a LTS when it is somewhat close to you. The reason being is when you do an LTS, the hitbox during the startup and active frames of the LTS is actually small enough to completely avoid the HTS while shooting out a LTS. Its only when you do a LTS too early you'll eat a fireball due to the hitbox during the recovery frames (see point 2).

== With a mixed speed (any speed) ==

This is where things gets interesting.

You can throw Sagat off just for a bit by changing up speeds. however usually in fullscreen fights, changing speed is usually used to keep Sagat in check (do a slow HTS and Sagat may just crouch all the time.

A jab HTS can't be avoid by a timed LTS so that basically kills that method (I'll test this further but I'm pretty sure you can't). A strong HTS may throw off Sagat in terms of judgement of speed and distance thus making Sagat misjudge and does a LTS too early.

The closer you are to Sagat makes slower TS slightly stronger. If your actually up close a slow HTS can keep Sagat in check.

There isn't much to talk here but changing speeds can change the fireball war.

Medium-close screen fights:

Your not going to be doing fireball wars here. This part is almost rock paper scissors but with Jumpins, Uppercuts, tiger knees, fireballs and throws.

Actually when your up close, one Sagat is the defensive one throwing fireballs, uppercuts, Hk and tech throws while the other is the aggressive one throwing physic DP, TK pressure, jump ins and throws.

=Aggressive Sagat=

Let’s discuss some viable options.

Fireball:

This is your pressure and zoning tool. You can apply pressure by doing LTs and occasional HTS (don’t get caught by a uppercut though when doing HTS) This will keep Sagat in check by negating your fireball with his or take chip damage. Beware not to do this up close as they can uppercut you clean if they see another predictable TS coming in. Becareful not to get jumped when you do a LTS at the same time cause its a free combo for them and that’ll hurt. Plus its back to zoning you back.

Tiger uppercut:

Usually when they try to jump in on you or against a close predictable TS. You can also use it to interrupt a blockstring.

Tiger knee:

TK is actually a very useful tool against jump ins, pressure tool (s.lk~short tk) and close in distance very quickly. Usually you want to sort of spam TK up close to apply ALOT of pressure so they don’t do any mistake and since TK is a really strong special, it can actually beat out some things. Don’t spam so much though or you’ll get tiger knee’d to the face as a counter (this happened once) or uppercut to the face.

Overhead:

Use this out of the blue up close when they’re going to block. Not great but useful.

Jumping in:

Be EXTRA careful with this. You want to jump in at them the moment they TS you back so you can grab a free combo. Also if they don’t TS, they can react with an uppercut (it hurts) or at a good distance, a s.hk or a f.hk will beat your ass out.

Blockstrings:

For obvious reasons although…I don’t know how to explain this in my head.

Throws:

Becareful not to walk up and get uppercutted or something while doing a throw attempt. Sagat IS slow so they might see this coming. Walk up throw very randomly. The best tick throw you can do is j.lk into throw but its so common they will see it coming. Just be careful.

Pokes:

they can be beaten out with TS at the right time and if you get hit, its hard to do another poke after when they can just do another TS to beat you out. This is better off more as a pressure tool.

Focus attack:

good pressure tool and as a counter-parry attack. Sort of. Like absorb a TS and let the attack hit them. Dash in for more offense or dash back for safety. This is so universal so use it as you wish.

Remember, your goal is to get in close and do some damage.

=Defensive Sagat=

You have the natural advantage since your more built as a defensive fortress shooting cannons (litterally) and keeping them out of your area.

Fireball:

Used mostly to deal some chip damage and to negate fireballs to prevent any sort of damage. Careful not to get caught doing a TS while they jumped.

Tiger Uppercut:

your anti-air. Deals good damage of course and its more against predictable fireballs, jump ins and blockstrings (interrupt).

S.hk/F.hk:

Depending on distance, THIS is your answer if you can’t TU in time or if they are far. Great range, priority, damage… I mean this kick is fucking awesome. Good to keep people out and at close range, can beat out focus attacks and some other stuff.

Tiger knee:

I once saw someone being defensive and used this on me. It just took me by surprised and I tried to react to it with whatever but I got caught. Good move to move out just a bit while being offensive.

Overhead:

Ideally you don’t want them to be standing next to you. But if they are, overhead can do the trick otherwise block string to move them out.

Block string:

To basically apply pressure so they cant do shit upclose and move them further away.

c.hp:

You know, this is actually a good move. Good range, nice damage, pushes back considerably, not bad at all. Don’t abuse it though.

Throw:

only when they are up close to kick them back out.

Ideally, you want to keep them away with the life lead.


=Generic info=

-Have alot of patience. Get the life lead and try to win by time out.

-You don't have any good crossovers or any defense against crossovers really.

-Your either fighting a fireball war or a close game. There's not...in between.

-Usually its good to have a wall behind your back. You just feel safer.[/details]

**Sakura - 7/3  [need data]**

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**Seth - 5/5**

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From PlayGroundLegend: Seth is an even match up. You have the health advantage, and remember THE GAME TIMER IS YOUR FRIEND :) ... Seth's advantage is his amazing speed, teleport and the ability to negate your TS with his ultra. If you are playing against a long limb happy seth player (standing fierce punch, jumping fierce punch) TIGER UPPER THAT ISH! TU does 150 dmg, seth has like what? 750-850 health... max? Jumping MP also beats seth's jumping fierce. If you get seth into a corner, don't crowd him. Treat him like akuma. When a seth gets in the corner they want to wall jump out of there, so stand at a distance that prevents him from jumping out. Contain him.

When seth gets his ultra, he will go to the opposite end of the screen and throw a crap load of sonic booms. If you jump over his sonic boom, you eat the ultra (and still get hit by the sonic boom during the ultra animation because it pushes you back). your best bet is a neutral jump, and purposely land ontop of the sonic boom. If the seth player is antsy, they will toss out the ultra, and since you got hit by the boom, you will not get sucked into the ultra - and seth will lose meter. Also, do not throw tiger shots while he has ultra, basic but it needed to be said.

FEAR HIS ULTRA. most people brush it off because it's weak. The best part of the ultra, is not the ultra itself, but how it makes you eat any sonic booms he threw before the ultra animation, and on wake up seth can throw a sonic boom, teleport behind you, cr. lk cr.lp cr. mp mk lightning legs kick you, and if that's in a corner, thats followed up with 3 head stomp and a dive kick.... FREEEEEEEEEEEE. That's an insane amount of stun, once you're stunned he can lvl 3 focus, dash up, cr. fierce punch HK machine gun kick, 3 head stomps and dive kick and start the wake up game.

HE GETS LEVEL 2 FOCUS INSANELY FAST. Do not get into stupid focus battles with him. The only time you should focus against seth is when he jumps up for a fierce punch or crouching fierce punch. Dash up to him. If you focus a jumping fierce punch while hes high in the air, treat him like dhalsim. dash up - upper cut him on the way down, FADC forward round house ultra.

If seth loves to throw sonic booms, wall jump into a round house dive kick. He will do 1 of two things (if he's skilled). 1. hit you with the wall dive and combo your ass (do not try to option select to prevent a grab, this is covered later) . 2. go for a free command grab spd because you are blocking (this is why you don't option select). If you see the wall dive just jump back with hard kick or if you can time it, tiger upper him. get some space away from him after that, or if he's timid he will jump back and go back to long arms and sonic booms.

DON'T JUMP IN ON SETH. YOU'RE SAGAT. NEVER JUMP. You're slow and half blind. Seth can catch you with a free LP upper into 3 head stomps and a dive kick at the end. This stun damage adds up. if you need to close the gap for whatever reason, tiger knee or kara tiger knee. Also, seth's in air jumping MP hits you twice, you fall in a juggled state, he lands first, and can follow up with 3 head stomps and a dive kick.


So, to sum it up. Play the game timer, turtle, tiger shot the crap out of him when he doesn't have ultra, focus his limbs or TU if he's being predictable. neutral jump his sonic booms, don't try to cross him up in the corner, just keep him contained. if he wall dives, jump back and create space or TU if you can on reaction.
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**Vega (Claw) - 7/3**

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From m2dave:
Sagat Vs. Vega (Claw). Here are a few tips and tricks.

- if you throw a HK Tiger Shot followed by a HP Tiger Shot, the latter stuffs any wall dive attempts with the exceptions of the EX Sky High Claw (charge d,u+PP) and Claw's ultra combo. Generally speaking, if the Claw player is foolish enough to wall dive a lot, you may use j.HPs, j.MPs, and j.MKs to take him down. Personally, I like j.HPs since they deal a lot of damage. You may also use focus attacks, which will absorb Claw's wall dive attack no matter which side it hit from. Be aware of Izuna Drops, however.

- Claw's EX Sky High Claw and his ultra combo have projectile invulnerabilities. You should only be concerned about the latter since the former does pathetic damage. So, if Claw has built up his ultra gauge, do not throw any Tiger Shots unless you want to be punished. Both of these moves can usually be punished by an EX Tiger Shot or a kara Tiger Uppercut performed out of f+HK when you block them. If Claw lands really close to you, Sagat's ultra combo can connect as well.

- Know that Claw's EX Sky High Claw can be sometimes tricky to block since it is kind of fast and it can either hit from the left or right side depending which wall Claw jumped from. Sagat's j.MP can stuff it, though, if you anticipate the move.

- Claw's slide (d+HK) evades high Tiger Shots but not low Tiger Shots. The move is only safe when performed at max range (kind of like Blanka's d/f+HP). It is cr.MK -> Tiger Uppercut / Tiger Shot punishable otherwise. Note that the move CROSSES UP Sagat when he is grounded. After the cross up, watch out for a throw, cr.MK into a combo (i.e., cr.MK -> EX Flying Barcelona Attack -> Izuna Drop) or an instant overhead performed via jump back HP. The instant overhead may be punishable by a kara Tiger Uppercut done out of f+HK I think if you ever happen to anticipate it and block it.

- Claw has a decent footsie game, so expect to see a lot of st.MKs, st.HKs, and cr.MPs. His walking speed and dashes are fast. Be prepared to tech throws, especially when d/f+HK gets blocked. When you are grounded, be aware of walk up throws, sweep / d/f+HK cross ups into follow ups, and instant overheads. Claw's offensive game is by no means strong, but be familiar with the options he has.

- The Backflips (PPP and KKK) kind of function like "mini-teleports". They have no start up frames and Claw is completely invulnerable while he backflips. However, as soon as his feet touch the ground, he is vulnerable and there is a slight recovery to them. KKK Backflips cover less ground than PPP dackflips do. If Claw players abuse any Backflips, you can freely jump at them without any consequences. You can also use f+HKs, MK Tiger Knees, or kara Tiger Knees performed out of f+HKs to close the gap. If they keep pushing themselves into the corner using Backflips, let them. That is where you want Claw to be.

- When Claw is grounded, meaty cr.LKs beat all of his options I believe except Backflips and backdashes.

Vega's reversal game is miserable. The basic strategy is to throw constant Tiger Shots at him until he gets to a point where Sagat's Tiger Knee strings may be initiated, again taking advantage of Claw's poor reversal game. You can absolutely murder him if your Tiger Knee strings are on point. The easy st.LP -> LK Tiger Knee trap works on him as well. Corner him and apply constant pressure. Do not let him escape. When his mask falls off, I think his stamina becomes Seth-like.

There is a reason that this match up is considered by many to be 7:3 favoring Sagat. Sagat's options are just so much better than Claw's. The only advantage Claw has is in the speed department, but that will certainly not going to stop Sagat from bashing the pretty boy's face.

Video:

Mago (Sagat) Vs. Genius (Claw)
[media=youtube]GsN1cC7XrZw[/media][/details]

**Zangief -  7/3**

vs
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**Pro tip: **Zone the cyclone, keep him away with s.HK and proper tiger shot zoning. 

From MYK jamgi:With Gief's short jump and regular jump options crossup are really ambiguous on Sagat, especially since he's really tall too. After you block the jump in correctly you're still going to have to guess. If you tried to jump right away c.lk will stuff you, since he has soo much block stun after jump-in d+hp. So it's another mixup, jump and get c.lk xx lariat or stay down and get 360ed, though I think cuz he's at soo much block stun after jump-in d+hp, he has to tick into 360, otherwise he'll just whiff his throw right through you (don't quote me on this last one, I'm not 100% sure on it.)

And there's always pray-to-God uppercut, though it could be extremely risky. Save your meter, block correctly, and if he crossed you up after blocking uppercut~fadc backdash outta there. He might(? not 100% sure) be able to catch you with green hand, though keep in mind you still get a free throw or c.lp, TU even if green hand hits. Ex green hand, of course not you'll be knocked down again X(.

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From PlayGroundLegend:
Gief's want to be closing the gap on you, in range for a ex green hand. Basically means if I twitch or hit anything I get green handed, on the floor, wake up trouble. I get stuck where they are in that safe zone so I can't throw out normals, knee's, TS's etc. So, naturally I want to back up. Gief just keeps coming. After I got more experience with tournament level giefs I learned to just chill out and hit nothing if need be. Then I was getting caught with standing hard kick into SPD.

I decided to play as gief for a week, learn him inside and out. 99% of his combos (you'll see them on wake up) start low. I used to try to dash back or jump out on wake up but you can't. You just need to ride it out - most likely leading to an spd, but you gotta do what you gotta do. I learned that you can cross up TU his jumping down fierce splash with 2 half circle motions into HP TU. That helped a lot. I learned not to hard kick his jumping fierce punch as it stuffs it. I used to try to TU his anti airs - it's not worth it, TK became my best bet as it knocks him to the other side of the screen and he can't safe jump like that. When I get in the corner I just used to try to jump back or panic etc and get hit by lariat. Now I just chill, and if he doesn't have EX meter I will EX knee into a grab as EX green hand beats EX knee or basically anything you try to do. Once I'm out of the corner I do a kara TK to get further from the corner and pressure him on wake up. Most gief's aren't used to getting thrown. Try it sometime. They all expect an up close DP or some shit. It's risky, but it's a good mind fuck in that the rest of the match they know you aren't afraid of him.

I found a good video of Ojisan boy playing a gief player. He advocates staying up close and baiting laggy gief moves that he can punish. I agree with him to an extent. If you are far away - you have the advantage, but you lose the element of surprise in that your options are TK TS s.RH f.RH kara knee kara ts etc. By being up close you make gief have to gues more. At a distance if you throw a high TS, gief does a cr. mk that moves him forward a bit. green hands help him move quickly as well, low ts he will jump over and fierce punch. etc. As much as you have the range advantage you lose the mind game war. I don't have mago execution or j wong reflexes or diago psychic abilities, I rely on being a smarter human being than the other guy, even if he's better than me, to win.

Video:

[media=youtube]qa1Xe...layer_embedded[/media][/details]

#4

Why can’t we post in here?


#5

That…is a sexy ass title.

Fuck my life why didn’t I think of that?!

Edit: Whoops my bad. For the record I doubt you will need 4 reserved posts though.


#6

thank god we had you :coffee:


#7

heh, I try. :sweat:

I’m a novice with Sagat since I finally settled on him a few weeks ago, but in my epic quest for knowledge I found out how unorganized (along with the lack of updates/details) this forum was… so, I try =)


#8

Seth should be 3. Seriously.


#9

Yeah I tend to agree on that, I was hesitant to put that one up but I based these ratings on the outdated tier charts @ event hubs. From my experiences, it’s even or just slightly in favor of Sagat due to the damage he can inflict.


#10

I think you should use the traditional notation for the rankings… Like if its even its 5-5… If its slight advantage, 6-4, serious advantage 7-3… slight disadvantage 4-6… etc etc…


#11

I actually changed it to that before reverting back, I figured it’s subjective as far as those best out of 10’s go. So it was slightly more easier to say it’s “good/even” etc.

But I’m down for match-ups instead of ratings.


#12

So what kind of thread is this? Are we supposed to provide our feedback and strategies for these match ups or is it just here for match-up ratings? I’m getting bored of SFIV and thinking about not taking it so seriously anymore so I’m just trying to find a place where I can dump my experiences and knowledge a little bit at a time so that it may help someone else.

============================================================

VS. ABEL

============================================================

I play against Abel the same way I play against Chun-Li. I am writing this, assuming that you have become proficient in performing your moves, techniques, strings, links, etc.

  1. Keep the distance and spacing correct and try to make him pay for his little mistakes even if it’s for some chip damage. Another important thing is to knock Abel down. If you have a Tiger Option available, use TK or TU.

… Abel doesn’t have any good jump-in strikes besides his cross-up.
Just Tiger Uppercut him out of the skies, or use s.:hk:/:r:+:hk: to control the air.
After you make it clear that you control the air, he’s going to be forced to roll. Don’t be afraid to pressure him with Low Tiger Shots. The trick is to distance yourself properly so that if he rolls, you can hit him right at the edge of your s.:lk: (Tiger Option). This is also the distance where he cannot command throw you, or throw you. So even if he rolls past a Tiger Shot, you have the option and correct distance to TK him safely. If he rolls close to you, just throw him or get out of the way.

  1. Once he’s got his Ultra meter. It is a good idea to become aggressive and attack him. The reason why I say this is because Abel has the ability to play Rock, Paper, Scissors with you. If he has the option to Ultra through your Tiger Shots. This, gives him the ability to become VERY aggressive. Abel’s attack options consist of all three CQB (Close Quarter Battle) attacks.

…Strike, Throw, and Command throw. Yes, he is like a mini-gief, except not as predictable because he can FADC out of certain moves. This usually poses as a threat after his :mk: dash-in or cross-up. Abel has way too many options to hurt you if he engages you with EX meter. So keep your eyes on that.

… Your throw will beat his command throw and strikes.
… Your c.:lp: will beat most of his strikes besides his s.:lp: because it’s 3 frames. So it’s even.
… Your TU will beat out everything besides his… block.
… However, if he’s looking for an EX option after his s.:mk: then you’re in trouble. That’s when you should get out of his way and give him the awkward silence. Let him know that he’s going to have to find his point of entry again.

STAY OUT OF THE CORNER!
Abel will mix you up all day with his cross-up, if you get caught in the corner. He can cross-up :mk: and CQB you to death. This is because his Tornado throw will throw you back in the corner. And since you cannot Quick Stand after a throw, he will be given the option to correctly time his cross-up every time he lands it on you.

Your main focus of this match is dependant on how well you can zone him (the obvious), and how well you can profit from hunting him down when he has his Ultra.

The reason why I say you should become more aggressive when he has his Ultra is because of your ability and ease to be more explosive/random with TU FADC. Unless he baits for it. Most Abel players land their Ultra through a poor Tiger Shot, or after c.:hp: to launch you.

Check out the Abel blog: http://theabelblog.blogspot.com/

Study it, and notice how most of the methods used to land his Ultra are from CQB FADC c.:hp:. While he can still c.:hp: you if you jump-in, it’s risky for Abel because Sagat’s j.:mp: is a good tool to stuff it out, possibly leading to TU FADC Ultra.
**
Last thoughts:

  1. Find the areas that he uses to play Rock, Paper, Scissors. Stop or avoid it.
  2. If he’s sitting comfortably in front of you, he’s in good rolling or cross-up distance.
  3. If you get caught by his c.:hp: roll c.:hp: roll combo. After the second roll, it’s rock, paper, scissors.
  4. Keep your rhythm, because it’s harder for Abel to keep his. Tiger Uppercut FADC is the best rhythm interrupter tool in the game. Use it wisely.**

I could get more in-depth about behaviors, but that is unnecessary, and good players always adapt.


#13

thanks bro… just hope you stay consistent with updating it.


#14

x Z 3 2 x, that’s exactly what this thread is all about.

We’re looking to build a new match up thread, which is all about the strategies, dos/donts when fighting each specific character.

edit:

@ il0veb00ty: I will man, no doubt.


#15

Okay, cool. Now that I know what I should be posting, I’m interested to see if there are any requests there may be out there. I’ll try to be as informative as I can when writing.


#16

I’m gonna review each of my match up posts, and make changes, some of them I wrote without the intention of them being on the main page, I will post the update here, and as it gets updated, I’ll remove those posts as well.


#17

Great job Sahykoh!


#18

Good stuff PGL… I added all of them, so we’re good.

Thanks Neemo!

Edit: btw, I’m adding pro tips, which are one sentence summaries on how NOT to be free. The stuff below pro tips will teach you how to win it consistently.


#19

Hope it’s not too much trouble, but could you add a date to each characters name when they get updated? Or have any kind of information in them? Gets quite time consuming clicking “show” on every characters name


#20

Yeah I thought about that, I’ll add some stuff to make it easier so you guys don’t have to blindly click.