Tips and tricks

makoto
#1

In the CVS2 section buktooth is giving very practical tips, not strats, traps or combos, just tricks to mess with your opponents mind.

That kind of inspired this thread. However I’d like for anyone with something they consider useful to speak up, this isn’t just MY thread…

I’ll start it off with TWO tricks:

After a combo ending in a hayate, tap f+lp, which will counter ppl trying to do anything. After it’s blocked or it connects you’re at the perfect distance to crossup with a jumping mk.
Against the very thin Yun and Yang substitute with a lk.

Next trick has several setups, it’s all about the distance.
There’s this certain distance where cr.mp will JUST whiff. at this distance you can do the motion you normally would when doing a cr.mp xx hayate without fear, because it will ONLY connect if your opponent is doing something, if he’s blocking or jumping away, you’ll just whiff the cr.mp, and nothing will have happened. One way to set this up is by doing two f+mp strikes both of which touch (block or hit).

ok just one more:
mk as anti-air, dash, karakusa.

#2

on wakeup:

strong : block or hit, u can go for a karakusa on them
c.short>hayate dash cancel>karakusa

#3

This I saw in a match vid, I don’t remember when or where though.

When you’ve got your opponent cornered, they’ll often resort to jumping out when they feel pressured. What you can do is jump straight up and do a lk or mk Tsurugi when you expect them to jump. After you can juggle them with two Hayate’s.

It probably worked so well only because the makoto player knew his opponent’s patterns so well. But it’s a thing to consider.

I also use fk Tsurugi against wake-up reversals, the timing to parry it is deceptive and depending on the distance it will trade with DP’s. If it hits, the knockdown lets you position yourself for the j.mk crossup. I love that crossup, because I saw that ppl apparently don’t expect a tick-throw after it.

I wouldn’t say that fk Tsurugi is the best anti-wake-up choice, but it’s nice to have to mix up with the cr.lk/meaty-mp tick throwing.

#4

some basics. was going to add some hayate canceling stuff but uhhh… forgot.

MAKOTO

[After knock down…]

  1. meaty standing strong xx ex oroshi

  2. meaty standing strong, karakusa

  3. meaty standing strong, c. short -> jab hayate

  4. fake meaty standing strong/jab, karakusa

  5. meaty c.short/jab, jab oroshi, dash in, throw/karakusa (dont use ferice or strong, too slow and the ferice will knock them down)

  6. UOH, karakusa

  7. UOH, c.short -> jab hayate

  8. jump strait up, mk, jump up again, tsurugi (screws up parry timing…)

  9. c.short/jab -> hayate

  10. off the ground ex tsurugi (stuffs throws and punishes them if they are crouching)

  11. dash back at last moment, jab hayate

  12. c.mp, UOH -> SA1

[After connected hayate…]

  1. standing short xx ex oroshi

  2. karakusa

  3. ex tsurugi (stuffs throw attempts)

  4. another hayate (recovery on a connected hayate is pretty decent so if they try anything, another jab hayate might stuff thier attempts)

  5. c.short/jab, hayate…

  6. c.mp -> hayate (if you are too far for anything else to connect)

  7. jab (will stuff most anything and sets up for another karakusa or hayate)

  8. c. roundhouse (will catch them if they try to jump away)

[When opponent is standing/mobile…]

most of these will require you to dash in before hand so it will connect therfore putting them in hit or block stun…

  1. c.mk, c. fp (c.mk has great priority, stuffing most moves, and if they try advancing after that, they get swept.)

  2. c.mk/c.jab, karakusa

  3. c.mp, dash in, throw

  4. standing strong, fierce xx EX hayate (fierce connects if they try anything after the standing strong)

[Opponent in corner…]

  1. c.mk, c. roundhouse (c.roundhouse will catch them if they try to jump out)

[Jump in attack…]

  1. j. mk, standing short xx ex oroshi

  2. j. mk, c.short -> jab hayate

  3. j. fp/mk, karakusa

[After hitting opponent in air…]

  1. Dash in, karakusa…

  2. Dash in, standing short xx ex oroshi

[After successful parry of incoming jumping attack from opponent…]

  1. jab reset, dash under, karakusa…

[After they jump in, parrying your anti air standing strong…]

  1. strong fukiage…

[After f + short corner reset after EX hayate…]

  1. j. fierce, karakusa

  2. dash in, karakusa.

#5

good stuff, lotta options… very numurous.

1 comment though.
I don’t think you’ll be in throw range after a connected hayate.

And that dash underneath thing I can vouch for, it’s goood =]
The first time I saw that, I think I saw Izu do it…

Another thing, about dashing in after an Oroshi might seem like a good idea, but I’m not so sure. I used to think the same thing about dashing after a neutral throw, but I was very wrong…
I wonder why there’s no frame data for the neutral throw.

#6

throw range after a connected hayate? what are you refferring to?

yeah and some of the stuff isnt the best idea in all siutations but like i said it is all pretty basic stuff that ive done at one point or another.

a lot of that stuff i dont even use anymore but some of it is fun.

#7

<— Makoto scrub

My bestest tactic is random karakusa -> s.hp xx hp hayate, c.lk xx jab hayate, c.lk xx jab hayate

Usually out of range for the jab hayate to hit… I suck :confused:

The sad part is, I usually always land c.lk xx jab hayate. Once people start blocking it though, I’ll start mixing in overheads and grabs. Wee!

I need to do more random s.lp after parries or as empty jump anti-airs into karakusa :frowning:

#8

either ex hayate them to the gorund or start doing standing lk xx ex oroshi…

i also saw this one dude on a video dash back after a regular hayate and throw out a c. mp. he didnt hit with it but i get the idea.

#9

well you said next to your ex-tsurugi after a conneted hayate that it stuffs throw attempts, but no sane ppl will try and throw you at that point and expect it to work. Maybe a karathrow, but they’re still recovering after you so it’s too much of a long shot etc. etc.

@Icege
Well having too many or too complex options might not be a good place to start, but you may want to have a couple whose counters are mutually exclusive. What I mean is, you can for example compare the two options after a hayate:

opt1:
mp
counters:
parry, block

opt2:
Karakusa
counters:
jumping, tech throw, DP

As you see, there are no counters that work against both options, now you have a solid guessing game. That’s a good thing.

#10

I disagree. Makoto will be in throw range after certain connected Hayates (depending on strength used) , and DURING her Hayate if you attempt to do it twice in a row. Throwing will successfully counter that. I won’t even talk about Hugo.

I dislike the EX Tsurugi as a throw counter because of its high fuck-up penalty. “Oops, Roundhouse Tsurugi came out instead. You can hit me with a Shin Shoryuken while I’m floating back to the ground.”

It’s better to avoid being in that situation in the first place- therefore, against Shotos, use Fierce -> Strong Hayate to give you enough room to back out of throw range. Against other characters, you’ll have to do some testing.

(I personally prefer to use that ass-tastic WTF method of dodging throws, twd+Roundhouse. Only attempt to fake -> Karakusa if you know your opponent isn’t twitchy.)

#11

if u know the shoto ur playing to be dp happy, all you have to do is parry forward, multiple dp hits or not either u get a free fierce>hayate, or u just block the rest.

or if u want to be even safer, then u can parry and throw at the same time. both will process, if u dont parry them u throw or tech a throw, and if u parry them u throw them.

#12

yeah, i was about to say, outside of the obvious hugo and karathrows, im pretty sure ive been thrown after a hayate and even during one.

although not very fun, imo, blocking tends to be your best bet when it comes to post hayate mix up game.

arlieth:

are you jumping strait up when doing ex axe kicks or forward? Id assume that if you did fuck up youd sail half way across the screen anyway if you were jumping forward first.

and am i doing something wrong? I keep getting thrown out of f+roundhouse.

#13

You guys are right about the range after a Hayate, however the reason I was sceptical probably has more to do with the fact that I hardly ever use hayate outside of kara->fp->hayate and cr.mp->hayate to punish stuff. Throw range for hugo seems an entire different concept :slight_smile:

@Arlieth Tralare
Could you please elaborate on the use of f+rh… I’ve been looking for practical uses for that and other command-normals.

TIP:
Jump baiting.
It’s not allways safe to poke until you’re out of range, actually it’s hardly ever safe. But I think there’s something about Makoto throwing out crouching moves outside her range that’s irresistable to jumpers. When you’re expecting a jump it’s easier to deal with, and you can do one of MANY things:
parry -> karakusa
parry -> reset -> dash under -> karakusa
jump straight up -> rh
[insert your fave AA]
…

I use cr.mk to bait, since it recovers pretty quick and has high-priority in case-they don’t jump and come after me.

But the reason I do it may sound odd to most of you. I’m actually trying to get this off:
Fukiage xx SA3…

Not a lot of SA3 fans out there, I know. So I’ll just leave it at that.

#14

hayate canceling

karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> dash in karakusa

karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> karakara

karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> dash in ex axe kick (just for you arelith)

c.mp -> hayate cancel -> dash in karakusa

s. jab -> s. lk -> hayate cancel -> karakusa

karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> dash in s. jab -> s. lk -> hayate cancel -> dash in karakusa

if they start jumping away…

chase them down with a jumping fp or f+ fp or a hayate.

and kind of risky, but if you are within dash range, fake a hayate then dash in and throw or karakusa.

in genreal, what I have found, is using makotos tricks are fun in casual, but in tournament play and when playing a bit more serious really, that shit will just get you in more trouble that it is really worth.

I tend to really really stick to the basics these days.

sweep people, or just do whatever it takes to get them on the ground. from there just mix up ticks, regular karakusas and more sweeps

the only real “tricks” I ever use anymore have to do with the ex oroshi after certian moves.

c. mk -> s.lk -> ex oroshi

coming to this relaisation is kind of a punch in the gut since she has so many potential mix ups. at the end of the day i think her risk to pay-off ratio dosent pay off with most of her tricks.

#15

if they try to cross you up…

fukiage -> s. mk reset -> dash in karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> dash in s. jab -> s. lk -> hayate cancel -> dash in karakusa -> fp -> hayate cancel -> dash in ex axe kick

just fucking with you. :lol:

#16

Hayate canceling in a combo is not something I would not use personally. One reason being that if you do it you’re sacrificing a bit of guaranteed damage for the chance to do more, which is alright, I suppose. But it’s gambling… with not so good odds IMO.
The other reason is that I can’t do it fast enough… so no, I’m not gonna do it for the time being :lol:

TIP:
Makoto does a lot of stun. Her FP and cr.RH do the most stun of all her normals. But Fukiage is the most stunning single move. The reason why I think STUN is so important is cus I play SA3, in which case a dizzy opponent is heaven.

EX fukiage is a good AA in case you didn’t know. Since it moves you forward quite a bit you might even cross-up, so air-parrying becomes harder. If you train your execution you could jump cancel the Fukiage. I don’t really think that’s necessary though, I just sit there and do cr.RH for the extra stun. EX Fukiage does a little less stun than a normal one, but since it’s easier to land it, it’s a better choice IMO.

After the cr.rh you added a chunk of stun. If you manage to get a grab the next FP will fill up your SA bar up again. In case of SA3 that would mean grab, fp xx SA3, cr.mp xx hayate. Depending on how stunned the other guy was before all this happened he might be dizzy now, if not… the hayate probably wasn’t the best choice :slight_smile:

When opponent is dizzy: j.RH, FP xx Hayate
is the most damaging combo. doing around 80 on Ryu. They’ll be dead by that time. If you add up all the damage of the combos mentioned above there will be a shrivvle left of their life, so if these are the ONLY combos you do the whole match, you will have ALMOST won.

#17

About the mutually exclusive examples I gave:
It’s not entirely true, because a reversal DP beats both.

AFAIK there is no solid guessing game after a hayate. I suppose adapting the options against different characters and playing styles would be best.

#18

playing makoto is gambling.

#19

playing against makoto is gambling, too.

#20

gambling is fun