Tougeki ST '08!

I am not suprised by the Chun and O Hawk standings. I am suprised at O Ken being higher than N Ken.

Get to it, FMJ! Let us know when you’ve found the answers.

s.MP and s.HK become mid-hitters on everyone except Guile, Blanka, Chun and Cammy (who can still duck them), c.LP is better overall and c.MK debateably has a better hitbox - besides some other small hitbox tweaks that make no real difference that’s pretty much it, but those along with the better DP make a lot of his match-ups considerably easier to handle.

While it is personal preference, I disagree with this statement - the major problem ST Hawk has is he can’t safely meter build for the super at all except by 360’s so by the time you have it, you could probably just finish the opponent off with a normal 360. Unless you want to add +10 to your style points, the super doesn’t help ST Hawk out much in the long run.

To me, O.Ken isn’t a surprise. In my opinion…I prefer O.Ken.

As for O.Hawk…maybe some damage differences/move property differences help him out?

For what its worth when I asked Daigo through NKI at evo one year who he thinks the best character is in ST, he said Chun Li.

She seems pretty damn good to me too so I dont quite understand why shes usually not ranked highly by Americans.

As for Hawk, the man has an infinite, in a country where people can do it, its not surprising for him to be ranked reasonably well. I guess the normals O Hawk gets make a really big difference though…

As for O. Ken… his fireball recovery is ridiculously good. Add to that the amazing recovery on his dragon punch, and you have a character who can throw fireballs all day long, and if you ever get in, he can randomly dragon punch to get you back out, and theres not much alot of characters can do about it.

Thanks for the explanation.


actually no one’s yet mentioned what I think is one of o.Hawk’s strongest moves- might be character matchup specific though, not sure. I’m affraid to even get into it now. also once he gets in, if you can’t reversal, then your round is basically over, if o.hawk is being used by a good player. I too thought honda was good against him, and he probably is (along with at least one other character I can imagine) but I couldn’t beat one of the best Hawk’s I’ve seen with my honda (which sucks). I also agree that dhalsim can have serious problems against honda.

Also I asked Noguchi (who may have one of the best Fei Long’s) today, he wasn’t surprised about Fei Long being ranked where he was (ie not at the very bottom, as I would have thought).

Old Ken was always ranked higher than new ken, but I don’t see so many pick old ken these days. I can see why new ken is lower tier, he seems harder to get anywhere with to me.


Sorry when I first posted that I didn’t notice that Gian had written the article. Raoh wrote the third strike rank article. So it’s kind of a standard thing. Yukinose does a lot of their Melty Blood/Guilty Gear articles. Chibita @ VF coverage, etc.

There’s a really really strong consensus as far as the tier list goes in Japan. I see Honda lumped at the bottom of A sometimes but otherwise that list of Gian’s is more or less set in stone.

Blanka beats N.Hawk and loses to O.Hawk. Crouching jab is the alpha and omega there.

Double post!

re: thread title…

Any chance of an AfroLegends (@Balrog) & Valle (@O.Sagat) team repping USA? Did Afro enter the qualifiers last year?
Who else?
Wolfe Bros, yes.
How about Justin @ Chun and Choi @ OSagat?

I hate to dump on my coast but I’d like to see two CA teams. Esp. since dXp is on hiatus.

nohoho were there an matchupchart in that article? I would be much more interested to see that than a tier-list.

A big, huge WTF at O Hawk ranked A. I seriously don’t understand. AFAIK he has better normals than X Hawk but he stills has serious problems to get in against lots of chars, and if he doesn’t get in then he can’t deal damage.

I’d also be interested in seeing a match up chart, that would give us some explanations on why the tiers are that way.

Chun has always been pretty brain dead with plenty of gimmes and silly option selects that other characters just don’t have. I’m not that surprised.

Wow, as an O.Hawk player, I’m quite surprised about this, but not at the same time. Thinking about what O.Hawk gains over N.Hawk it seems that it works out. Having an invinc. DP handles a lot of things easier, his jab stops a ton of stuff (Min gets pissed off about rapid fire cr.jab). This really kind of boosts my confidence in ST in some weird unexplainable way.

O.Ken’s invincible DP and recovery times for fireballs make him a force to be reckoned with. It can be argued that ST Ken’s knee bash is better or worse than O.Ken’s advantages, but one thing does stand: O. Ken is one of the best “old” chars, period.

The move up for Chun’ doesn’t surprise me. She’s always been ridiculously user friendly for someone with so many tools. I mean, wasn’t the original intent behind her design to get girls playing by giving them someone that wasn’t depending on knowing motions?

I’m assuming O. Hawk’s move up has something to do with his safe ticks because, technically, if he knocks you down, you’ve got no way out. If you reversal, he OS blocks and knocks you down again. If you do anything else, you get grabbed. Your only real hope is that he mis-times the SPD.

Not being able to get in isn’t as a big of a problem if you only need to get in once.

What you just said is also true for normal Hawk, yet he’s ranked C, so it’s obviously not the reason why O. Hawk is ranked A. And this strategy has been known for quite a few years now.

My guess is that people (Toutanki maybe) discovered the power of O. Hawk’s normals (the jumping down+hp for example) and learned to use them properly. Apparently, it seems that they are more powerful than what anybody imagined. The condor dive seems a little bit better too, but I haven’t done thorough testing so it might just be my imagination.

Ah, yeah. Brain fart.
That could be it. O. Hawk’s normals have some really good range and some weird priorities. People get too caught up trying to get in and they forget that Hawk can play a poking game if he wants to.

There are a few threads talking about the advantages of O.Hawk over N. Hawk.

-Better normals (Namely: LP, Cr. LP, St. MP, St. RH, Body Splash (Godly- cross up) )
-Better DP (more invincibility, double hits more characters)
-Crazy easy, super damamaging, cross-up dizzy combos. (not seen to often, but they are there)
-Cr. MK has better priority - True- YBH pgs. 28/55- Bigger hit box. Everything else is the same. same frames data, and same damamge. (TY to Nohoho for the correction)


-Cr. RH is faster and has better priority- Not tested. I don’t konw the answer.
-Jp.FR has better priority- Not tested. I don’t konw the answer.

Poeple have known O. Hawk has had potential for a long time (even in the US, at least the West Coast did, I didn’t live anywhere else to know what they thought)

However, with the advent/discovery of the safe jump-in “on the get up” and the negitive edge OS on the 360, his potential went even higher.

Then to see it all used so well in actual gameplay by K and Tounaki in X7. Everybody became very excited (and very scared) to see what O.Hawk could do.

They were one win away from taking first as a 2 man team in a 3v3 tourny. However, ARG’s (IIRC) claw just tore them up and flipped his way out of all the traps.

Thank you very much for that bit of info - in my group of ST players, O. Hawk c.MK has been a discussion point for a long time where we couldn’t decide if it was better or not (none of us have the YBH for reference, though we really should), very odd because in a match it “feels” better than ST Hawk’s, but there you go.

Toutanki was already using this technique in the first SBO (and before it), yet he didn’t use O. Hawk at the time. Maybe the turning point is when the Yoga Book came out, and people had clear evidence of the differences between the 2 Hawks normals.