Transforming negativity/salt into something constructive?

Sorry about hijacking your thread, Faz, but since I have similar problems, although perhaps on a different level, I figured I might join the talk…

You’re talking about skipping fundamentals…either I don’t understand the concept, or…doesn’t a player learn them by just playing a lot? If so, how can one skip it then and if not, how does one learn the fundamental knowledge required for solid gameplay?

Sometimes, I’ve been focusing on stuff like trying to anti-air better, but whenever I tried to do so, the resulting tunnel vision made me lose even more than when I played normally. I wouldn’t mind losing for a while, but only if there were any long-term improvements to my anti-air game. Which still isn’t the case to this day. Same goes for teching throws.

I know it’s not all reactionary, most of the reads are just educated guesses after becoming more and more experienced. But I don’t have that experience yet, since I began playing seriously with Vanilla SF4. Should I just not rush myself and worry about these things more and more when (and if) SF5/6 are released?

No problem, feel free to hijack it all you want :slight_smile:

You can’t just skip fundamentals, they are skills that are developed over time. I was thinking, and the reason why I think I have this problem is maybe because I didn’t experience “scrub play” if that makes sense. The moment I bought this game, I found a guy named HawkinsT (who had probably the 2nd best Seth in the UK at the time) and I lost close to 1000+ matches in a row just playing him. This beefed up my game to a level so high even I was surprised, especially in such a short space of time. From then on I was adamant on playing good players only, so I would find them on Endless and play them, never Ranked. This got me used to “high level online play” if that exists and I was able to build a game style around that. However recently I have trying to play Ranked to get a few points and show off a bit but I can’t get past 3k PP lol, which is the annoying thing, considering that after 3kPP is generally where the good players are. And that is my problem, I have so little experience against extremely random shit I lose to it. It’s like you fight someone who you think is playing so random, it can’t be surpassed, then you play the next Ken and your eyes are popping out like Blanka when he’d KO’d.

First things first, stop calling other players bullshit. If they used a strategy and they won, then they’re strat > your strat. Simple as that. I remember when I used to call players cheap/noob/scrub etc. but that really just made me angrier at my loss, and it made me not want to learn from my loss because in my mind I was thinking “he’s a scrub and got lucky, how could I learn anything from him?”, and I’d just move on, only to lose from similar strats down the road. My blood would boil man when I lost to this stuff, but that’s only because of my own ego. Stop getting mad at the loss, it means nothing, and learn from the match. Period. Take advantage of the fact that you can watch replays of your games, they’re one of the most helpful tools you have to get better. Once you start realizing that losing really is not a big deal, you’ll start to keep your cool after you lose.

Now, losing because of lag…>:(

It’s hard to do that if you are just playing randoms in ranked online, because there just usually isn’t enough time to really get a read on someones skill level in a single 2/3 rounds match. Now granted, there are times when it is painfully obvious who you are playing, and you can adjust accordingly, but for the most part, it takes me at least a round and a half to figure out what the other guy knows and doesn’t know, and if you are both holding back to feel each other out, you might not even get a good read until the end of the game. I think this is why you hear people say play the character and not the player; if you know what Ken is capable of, what he can do and can’t do, and you know the match-up with your character, then you can just play with those things in mind, skill level regardless.

Getting frustrated is normal and happens to everyone, but if you are getting super rage-filled on a daily basis, than yeah, it might be time for another game.

I saw your post about 'I’m not a scrub but i get beat by scrubs, i can hang with good players but can suck against people who don’t play with advanced tactics!!!"

I read something, i think it was in maj’s footsies handbook, or a dom 101 article, about the dance between randomness and predictability. As we play more and more advanced players, we see play styles develop, and let that be the framework for our plan of attack.

But when we play a novice player, they refuse to play within that framework, simply because they don’t know that framework exists. They mostly just find one or two effective attacks and milk those for all they are worth. You can’t bait a player who doesn’t know what they “should be doing”.

While the novice has the advantage of unpredictability, you need to rely on your greater knowledge of the game to win. Simplified: lame em out. Use some moves you bet they don’t know how to deal with, or effectively bait and punish, then sit on the life lead. 99% of the time, without an effective offense plan, you can keep em out and incrementally take em down.

Hope this helps! I get REAL angry too, but hey thats part of being passionate about something , right?

Yeah, I think that’s why when I used to use Balrog it was ok, it was so easy to turtle, but with Akuma, having such low health, I love trying to vortex people, and especially online where setups are hard to execute great frame perfect thanks to lag etc. which is kinda hard. And I think it’s because I never played someone my level when I started out. I just found a training buddy who was really good and just got used to losing vs him for a good 1000 games. And what you said about playstyles being developed around that, it probably was. I’m not used to randomness as I just find training buddy’s and JUST play them, so the games we play are usually quite technical and enjoyable.

Haha yeah, I guess passion is the word, I’m a winner, in whatever I do and I hate losing :smiley: But I only hate losing in things I am passionate about.

1)Ignore/avoid haters.
2)Add positive players as friends.
3)Don’t try to tell others how to play.

Fun times ahead.

I think that is my biggest problem, telling others how to play. I need to get it out of my system that just because a certain players playstyle might be completely different and makes me perceive it as random, it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

Thats right, especially if that is how they learned to play or win. Variety makes it fun.

I’ll work on it. Not been able to play SF properly as my connection is a bag of shit lol.

Now that doesn’t make anything fun.

Yeah, although this has made me believe SF has horrible netcode. Because on other games it’s crisp smooth but on SF it lags like a bitch.

Hahaha this is something I never understood when others lose, they’re quick to tell you what you’ve should have done. My response is generally “If I’m so bad, why didn’t you beat me?” Angry criticism just doesn’t work. I understand the difficulty of ranked matches because you don’t get the ample time to feel your opponent out (they should totally be best 2 out of 3 sets). And I know the feeling really, when you reach a level of play, you just expect certain things, but you should also expect the unexpected. Take a guy like Poongko perhaps, a lot of players cringe when he just throws stuff out, and while he isn’t undefeated or anything, it works in his favor. Sometimes you just have to do it, and maybe keeping doing it. It can be a mind game, or the player just doesn’t know any better.

The internet easily allows us to know what smart people will do, it’s all in the better tournament matches and youtube videos and stuff, but you have to be aware of the “scrub style”, and yeah it might be trouble some you skipped the step of spamming fireballs (for the sake of spamming, not zoning, meter building, etc), random and wake up dps, wake up/hail mary supers/ultras, finding an effective combo and just keep going for it ad nauseum regardless of what your opponent is doing, so on and so forth. So it’s possible you might be under prepared for such gameplans.

My suggestion is just knowing the character, and if you ever get super frustrated (like I did in 3rd Strike earlier today as I have NO idea how to handle a good Urien with my mediocre Dudley), it’s time to take a break, sit back and think on it.

Good luck in your future endeavors!

Really? You’re telling me that on a forum where we get daily posts by lazy morons who can’t even figure out how to DP properly, that they’re ever going to learn fundamentals? These people have to ask us fucking everything and they still can’t do it, you think they’d figure out footsies on their own?

I actually consider controlling your anger as part of your skill in fighting games.

Playing like an online scrub is something that the very best players do. Why do low level players use wake up shoryuken and jump in all the time? because it works. At middle level, people stops doing stupid stuff and try to play solid without dumb risks but that makes them vulnerable to stupidity and ruins them logicically when the other player does something like a totally unsafe jump in that just happens when you throw a poke and you lose 40% hp for it.

The tip is that you must be always prepared for everything, if you try to meaty two times in a match, you will get reversed, for not getting reversed you must make your opponent scared of reversing first by either using a meaty that beats your opponent reversals or keep you safe if you guess wrong or just bait it. This is not calculus, the outcome of a match is not the best player wins but who got the most payback from his guesses just happens that the good players know hows to turn a high risk low reward to low risk and high reward.

Maybe they won’t. Maybe I won’t. But I still think fundamentals are a matter of time invested in the game (if the individual actively thinks about them during his gameplay sessions). Or is there any other way besides figuring out how to move, punish, zone or anti-air by trying it out on live opponents and seeing if it works or not and how it works? DPs, combos, etc…are usually the most obvious and easiest things to learn in fighting games, so it’s no wonder the majority of players tries to or learns those first, for they provide rapid improvement rate at first (it hits, I win, yay!), to which peeps get easily used to and then moan about being roflstomped by someone who played the series for # years (I’m no saint either, I’m wrestling my own baseless pride as well sometimes). But that doesn’t mean they can’t learn footsies and such later on, does it? They either drop out or finally adapt.
Forum morons asking how to DP…well, catering to casuals does that, besides increasing sales revenue. Ban 5 of them, 30 come back.

First step: To stop raging is to not play online. Offline>online.

Online is bullshit it doesn’t matter. This coming from a guy that plays online alot. If you need to play online try not to get salty say to yourself “It’s just online”

Now if you lose to scrubby shit offline then you are a bigger scrub for not realizing you are playing someone shitty and letting them kill them selfs. Turtle and bait vs scrubs.

I am a lot more composed when my opponent is sitting next to me and I don’t get salty in offline games. Something about Online though…lol.

krazysho0t and hellbox9 hit the nail on the head I think.

After you get a bit better from being a novice, there’s just certain things you “feel” or “know” you shouldn’t do. I think the two biggest ones in SF are:
[]Random Ultras - If it hits, it hits. If not… highly punishable.
]Wakeup specials. - EX’ed or not, easily baitable, highly punishable on whiff. (obviously some moves are safer than others)
Now, for a lot of people, these become hardened rules. Set-in-stone so to speak. They’ll either never do them again, or very very rarely. Logically, it makes sense.

If you asked a mid-level player about why they never Random Ultra they’d say: “Because it probably won’t hit. It’s highly punishable on whiff and basically gives the opponent a free shot. Why would I give the opponent a free hit?”

If you asked a novice about why they Random Ultra they’ll say: “Because it might hit. Why would I not take a chance for free damage?”

These are two fundamentally different mindsets. The problem comes in when the mid-level player starts to over think the opponent/match or becomes accustomed to certain styles of play. They’ll start to realize as their friends get better that they start doing less flailing, and more controlled playing. This becomes the “norm” to the point that they stop reacting to what’s going on in the match and start playing by predicting what’s coming next. Chances are, if you play with the same people long enough this starts to become “how the game is played” in your mind and in your muscles memory. If all of a sudden a new player shows up and starts doing all those things you’re “never supposed to do” then you get in trouble.

All of a sudden, you think you’re seeing opportunities, when really, they aren’t there because they only exist in the framework of the playstyles you’re used to. Once that rude awakening happens, it’s a slippery slope as you struggle to keep up. Suddenly, all those techniques you’re not supposed to do because of their obvious deficiencies become very effective. As the match continues and you get hit by more and more things you weren’t expecting, it’s hard not to crumble in confusion…which inevitably leads to anger. I think most people don’t mind losing, but they hate not knowing WHY they’re losing. It’s very hard to experience this and still have the composure to stop and think about what happened. It takes time, it takes experience, and having a friendly environment to play sure helps a LOT!

Heck, this just happened to me today. I played a friend I haven’t played for awhile in MvC3. He plays Hulk and I was rocking Dormammu… sooo many times I thought I had an opening to hyper… and he just Gamma Crushed through it. Now, I know that Gamma Crush is invincible. I know should’ve learned after the first one. I know that not only should I have baited it out, but I had one of the best characters to counter it! I should say… I know that now. In the heat of the battle, I swear I got hit by more of those things than I thought possible… and it’s all my fault for not being able to remain calm and just adapt. I had the information, I just didn’t use it.

Like others have posted, I’m generally a laid back guy and it takes a lot to piss me off, but damn if I can’t be reeeeal salty when it comes to fighting games. My biggest gripes tend to come from my perception of risk vs. reward. I played the same friend everyday for over year who played mainly Guile. I can’t tell you how many times I got so salty. Being able to hang back and chuck booms and simply use any of 3 punches to stop my advancing… who wouldn’t be? I have to work 10x harder just to get to him and then the match starts…lol I know I have to bait unsafe booms, I know there’s a lot of characters that have moves with projectile invincibility, and honestly, he was predictable. But the thing is - he plays to win. All the time. Everytime. It doesn’t matter if he has to throw that Sonic boom 100,000 times a match to win. He’ll do it. I personally don’t find enjoyment in playing that way… so I continue to jump around characters and deal with the challenges. He’s playing to win… and wins most of the time. I play to have fun and I lose a lot to him. It IS fun when those rounds come by where I do exceeding well, and heck, even if I lose… if it was a good match with some good play I’ll genuinely enjoy it. But I couldn’t be happy for example with a round I won exclusively with chip damage because the opponent couldn’t get to me. I find it boring, so naturally I get salty when I’m “forced” to play against it.

Bottom line is, I think as a lot of players (including myself) feel we are getting better, we tend to take less risks because we think it will help us succeed in the long run. We try to hold on so tight to our health bars to keep them safe. It’s just the nature of people. However, many times this ends up working against us. We get so stuck in learning everything we shouldn’t do because if it fails… we’ll lose…that we forget to consider what could happen if it succeeds. It’s been proven time and time again that the player who is not afraid to risk his character’s life will many times come out saving it in the end.

Heck, people do the same thing with money!