I took a close look at the wall dive in TRUST since you guys now know there’s more to the wall dive than previously believed.
That counter to Sector 2 is not as easy as you may think, even if you know the theory. I investigated this in-depth and finally got it. I also came across some wacky random things along the way. This is a report on the findings, which includes links to two videos I put together (below). The video uses a script that starts out showing a “Practice” script you can use to try countering or blocking each of the three sector attacks, however in the video I just use it to illustrate (explicitly) the difference between each sector. Note the white crosshairs that define each character’s center to make the distinction. After the Practice, I comment that out and uncomment the Blocking section of the script. After Blocking, I get into the Counters which involve Ryu’s shoryuken/dragon punch (DP). First I cover counters (a) and (b) for Sector 1. Then I get into Sector 2’s counters.
Finally, Sector 3 is shown. In the second video, I only cover a successful Sector 2 counter, which I found only after a lot of trial and error.
Countering Sectors 1 and 3 work fine and as you might expect, however Sector 2 counters are anomalous as MAO explains and require strict input. I have been in touch with MAO and he was also not quite unsure as to why the first video’s Sector 2 counter failed (a dp hits when he doesn’t press punch for the claw, yet Ryu gets hit when claw does press punch for the claw). Some subtle but elusive edits to the inputs made the DP counter successfully though.
I can share the savestate I used, however it maybe easier to simply create the savestate yourself. Basically choose claw for P1 and Ryu as P2, and save the state a few seconds after the first round starts (don’t move the characters). You may need to change your Windows OS permissions of the Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ folder so you can create files there, in case you try to make a savestate but you don’t see it there. When you run the script, I highly recommend setting the Slow-Motion speed to Half Speed (select this above the Execute button) as in the videos (links below).
For minimal input to block, I think you can just do it on the exact same frame Claw presses punch in the air for Sectors 1 and 3. To block, opponent must START blocking often by the first or second frame where Claw’s claw-arm is below his body and orientated horizontally (the next animation frame has both arms in like a “V” shape, where his wrists overlap and after that, both arms spread out when the red box starts). Due to the frame-skipping nature of ST, which is how it obtains its game speed, this particular animation frame can take as few as 1 frame of the game, or up to 2 to 3 frames of the game, depending on which frames get skipped (which is determined by an erratic pattern). The wall dive itself is very quick, as Claw can shoot past many pixels of the stage during this time and there’s no way to react but for frame-advancing, just know that sometimes you must have already have started to block during one of the “claw-arm is horizontally under him” frames. It seems to take 3(?) or so game frames to block-- i.e., from the frame you have already started pressing the blocking direction on the stick, until the frame when you are actually able to block moves in the game. (So say if you started blocking 2 frames before you see any red box, it is too late and even though you blocked before the red, the game hadn’t registered it yet to establish your state as blocking yet).
In order to block the Sector 2 attack, specifically, you need to START BLOCKING 2 frames BEFORE claw will press the punch button. The blocking of a Sector 2 attack is a guess (as are the others) and you are NOT REACTING to anything you see on the screen because by then it is already too late. The first instance of a Sector 2 attack in my script has claw pressing punch for the wall dive in the air on frame 302 and this means you must start inputing block (to the farwall side) on frame 299.[note, might be different from 302 as I’ve edited the script since writing this, but the point is that Sector 2 blocking is slightly more complicated in that you must hold the direction longer than for the other Sectors.]
WIDE FACTOR: With regards to the nature of blocking a wide attack (I imagine Zangief’s splash fierce (down+big punch in air) and moves like that might work similarly? haven’t tested to be sure)… if the opponent starts blocking the wall dive that will hit in Sector 2 while claw is still on the far wall side in the air as he comes down, the opponent can successfully block. Otherwise, for Sector 2 attempts, he must block it as a cross-up i.e. hold the direction of near-wall side. He can start blocking it earlier in that direction; in any case, in the example I have of Sector 2, the “claw-arm is horizontally under him” frame occurs after claw’s center (white crosshair X value) has already passed Ryu’s center.
EXTERNAL MIX-UPS: This only deals with the wall dive itself, specifically its 3 Sector (and 3 counter and 2 block) possibilities. Since it is dependent upon something to GUESS which Sector of the 3, as opposed to it being something to react to, there are other things to guess as well while you’re doing the guessing. Maybe it’s one of the 3 Sectors of the wall dive, but if you try blocking and claw does not press punch AT ALL, the wall dive is so fast that he can land and throw from the ground. I haven’t tested this but there are lots of other potential threats besides the 3 sectors of the wall dive itself.
Countering Sector 1 attacks of the wall dive may vary to some degree from my example, which I think does it kind of late (a). So you can also get it out if you do the DP earlier (b). In my first example (a), because it is late, the Sector 1 wall dive attempt actually winds up with claw on the nearside wall at the very end as he gets hit by the DP (Ryu moved to the right slightly and the hitting has an effect on it as well).
Countering Sector 2 attacks with the anomalous yoga flame motion and releasing the punch buttons proved very difficult. See it’s own section for how to do it successfully. One time, I release the jab (light punch) button while claw is still on the farwall side, and the other two when he has crossed back over to the originating nearwall side but no dragon punch or fireball comes out. HOWEVER, tacking on a light kick while releasing light punch (i.e. a “4” to the inputs) DOES get a tatsu, which actually causes the wall dive to whiff, missing entirely but it does NOT actually counter with a dp.
The wall dive is the easiest move in the game for the biggest gains, and has tremendous ambiguity. Getting the counter to Sector 2 wall dives is
difficult at best.
Other characters have other attacks in the game that can be difficult to block against, although generally have more to do with the ability to react instead of guess in order to block correctly. The same is true for countering, and in countering it’s not just two possibilities but three you have to guess from. What other move, setup, or situation requires the opponent to guess from one of THREE possibilities, especially one of which requires anomalous input-- a yoga flame motion instead of srk motion-- in order to successfully counter? Does any other move or tactic have effectively three attacks in one? And one of those three, an option select by itself? Sector 2 counter attempts will often incur block damage, hit you clean, or whiff completely outside the small window of opportunity.
I had seen this in Japan many times before MAO taught the tech, but American claw players probably had little idea of what was going on or just how ambiguous it truly could be, attributing failure to counter wall dives that fell into Sector 2 (both their own as well as others’) as “skill”. Some really did not appreciate being told there was more to understand about it, either.
The first video (no sound) is here: [media=youtube]aUyYGZy-usA[/media]
The second video (low sound): [media=youtube]zRpMq8ftW9g[/media]
The Sector 2 counter failing is illustrated from 5:45 until 7:45 in the first video, which shows a little inconsistency and no successful counter. (It also shows an attempt at a counter that winds up being a block for some reason, ONLY on the first iteration of the script. Ever after, it fails to counter and gets hit by the wall dive.)
I urge others esp. claw players to contribute in the effort to come up with the solution independently. There are two factors I suspect. One is the initial inconsistency (first time the script runs, Ryu blocks Sector 2 attack (failing to counter) begining around 7:10 in the video, but each iteration after that gets hit by wall dive). Again, that just plays into the ambiguity favor of claw and one more thing to fear by the opponent, outside the scope of any particular skill and just possibly an ST problem perhaps due to ST frame-skipping. The other is that claw’s dive hitting BARELY on the Sector 2 side (i.e. JUST outside Sector 1 or, the cross-up point, note the white crosshair plus sign in the video frames) could have claw hitting too HIGH in the air (not deep) AND at the same time not enough time to turn around(?) or like, for the yoga flame motion to be Executed quickly enough so that it both starts on Sector 1 side AND has enough time/space to finish once claw reaches Sector 2. btw Note that, in order to block Sector 2 attacks, you cannot just block for as little as one frame (as you can for Sectors 1 and 3) and that you must block for longer over more frames.
It doesn’t seem to matter which side Claw lands on. Sometimes claw lands on left side after knockdown, sometimes right. but it hits in Sector 1. Just BARELY in it (i.e. Claw’s center line is the very next pixel over from Ryu’s center line, one to the far wall side). Despite having the same save state and exact same inputs each time, I suspect the difference may have to do with how many frames ST skips to achieve its speed. The goal was to get the center lines of the characters to line up: I tried to get the white crosshairs’ X value to be the same for each character, i.e. Claw is right on top of Ryu dead center for maximum ambiguity or as close as possible to it. Due to the wall dive’s speed in this scenario, just one more frame of left on the stick for Claw would have him go 4 pixels the other way past the crossup point.
I think there are 20 frames from the time Claw starts the move (up+farwalldirection+kick) until he reaches the far wall. Trying to do the DP one or two frames earlier. As it is, I keep getting hit. Anb if I try to do DP two frames earlier, the DP’ll whiff (not counter at all). So from my initial “with and without claw” version of the script, one frame earlier DP gets it blocked, and two frames earlier DP whiffs (neither a counter as desired).
To fail the counter and get a BLOCK, do the yoga flame motion such that you hit down and no other input (not down-right and not down-left) during the time that Claw is directly above you (i.e. the cross-up point, i.e. when you’d switch directions if you were a charge character in order to keep your charge when crossing up/being crossed up). If claw messes up and does presses punch in the air too late for too deep a hit, you can DP this but if the claw player does it correctly (hits high) you cannot seem to counter this at all (block or whiff a DP, but not counter a properly done Sector 2 attack).
If you attempt the counter to Section 2 too early, you’ll wind up blocking, and if you tack on a kick press for tatsu as you release or next frame after releasing punches, the wall dive will hit you clean out of the tatsu. I tried running the script asynchronously, and a DP came out but I did the claw punch (3) earlier and it whiffed.
COUNTER TO SECTOR 2
I found it using manual inputs for Ryu and frame-advancing through each time. It barely hits by 2 pixels with this way- will look at it more. Usually whiffed by bordering the hitbox (blue line next to a red line of the hitboxes). For Sector 2 - Counter (h), do the following steps:
Turn on input display and hitbox display while it runs the first loop.
When the next loop begins, press all three punches and keep them pressed down for P2@Ryu manually (use jab first so it completes quicker). Actually this isn’t required, you can just wait until the yoga flame motion is completed to press weak punch and it should also come out.
Pause around frame 100 (this is after Claw jumps off farwall but still high in the air before he presses punch)
Use frame-advance a few times until frame 112
Start holding down P2’s right directional. You’re still holding all three punches too. Frame-advance exactly one time to frame 113. (You can confirm this by input display if you have that on)
Hold down P2@Ryu’s right and down directionals and frame-advance to frame 114.
Let go of P2’s right directional, still holding down (and all three P’s), and frame-advance to frame 115. Note, at this frame or around here is the frame the characters switch sides.
Hold P2’s left and down directionals, and frame-advance to frame 116.
While holding left, let go of down and weak punch, then frame-advance to frame 117.
Let go of mid and heavy punches and keep holding left, then frame-advance to frame 118 or a few more. YOU HAVE TO HOLD LEFT after releasing weak punch. You’ll go into blockstun otherwise if you don’t do keep holding left!
A DP should BARELY hit by one or two pixels max.
Try the same steps again, except exactly one frame later (start inputing from frame 114 instead of 113) and your DP will whiff.
A DP will also hit starting another frame earlier at 112, 111 and 110 but blocks at frame 109.
A BLOCK will occur if you attempt it from frame 109. THAT IS YOUR WINDOW, four frames with this scenario.
A WACKY RANDOM THING will occur if you attempt it from frame 115. Try that 5 or 10 times in a row, from 115. I’ve gotten a fireball, gotten hit by the claw, and whiffed a DP. Wacky stuff also happens from 116.
From 117 and higher, it’s too late and the claw should hit you.