First off, well done and thanks for doing the research on this. Quick question: Why were the counters tested from a standing position rather than on wakeup?
Thanks again for this research!!
First off, well done and thanks for doing the research on this. Quick question: Why were the counters tested from a standing position rather than on wakeup?
Thanks again for this research!!
Good question- while it would be more practical to include knockdowns as well, I just focused on more basic things of the theory itself, and defining the three sectors. Also the savestate was easy to work from and it allowed me to work with more constants rather than add one more variable, e.g. for knockdowns, recovery times could play into that more for variance, possibly. Claw moves so fast in the air during the wall dive which made it a little easier too.
Without seeing it all go down frame-by-frame and the white crosshairs of the characters’ centers, a Sector 1 looks an awful lot like a Sector 2. Since the claw player still benefits even though he may not know exactly himself whether he got Sector 1 or 2, due to the sheer ambiguity of the wall dive, it’s very easy to walk away from a lost game thinking that it was one way when it was actually the other or that your stick was broken etc. So I took pains to illustrate something so basic as, ok here’s just how to simply block it. If anything, maybe I’ll refer to these studies myself when I lose to it and felt overwhelmed.
Knockdowns can be added without too much difficulty in any case. It would also probably be a good idea to add scripts of what happens when P2@Ryu “guesses wrong”, and does the wrong counter (e.g. Sector 1 counter for a Sector 2 attack, etc). Simply understanding, ok I got that one wrong because I messed up vs. I got that wrong because I guessed wrong of the one out of three choices might help.
I have no idea how the technical side of this works, but it looks absolutely brilliant. well done! I wonder if this could work for other old games? Would love to see a similar tool for KOF 98.
Ah ok. Thanks for the response, and once again, thanks for all of the research! These tactics alone have proven how lucky we are to have a program like TRUST for ST.
I thought I posted something important in this thread already but it seems I overlooked it all this time. If you have used TRUST to make your own unique customized scripts, and are on Windows 7, the savestate you create gets kind of “hidden” which is probably really frustrating. You can still use it and refer to it in TRUST, eg you saved a gamestate to slot 7 and can reference it as &7.sta in a script, however you can’t find it Windows Explorer and can’t rename it. You can find it in your “Virtual Store” which is a folder kind of hidden itself. Open Windows Explorer or command prompt by going to C:\Users[your user name here]\ and click inside the path field at the top to edit the path. Add \AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ and it should be there:
HOW TO RECOVER YOUR LOST SAVESTATES ON WINDOWS 7 (and Vista?):
Go to that folder and copy it back to TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ (the real folder).
You can rename the file eg 71.sta and refer to it that way i.e. in scripts write &71.sta and it will load that savestate. And each time you want to make more savestates, you can do it the same way eg always press Shift-F7 to make the savestate, and just keep overwriting 7.sta after you have renamed them to other numbers.
Sorry for missing explaining this, I’m sure this must have confused some people! Basically what happens is, because TRUST gets installed to Program Files, when you create data that doesn’t use UAC, newer OSes put it in the Virtual Store instead.
made this script to test reversals. it’s set up for the script to control Ryu (P2) and the user control Chun (P1). for the original save state, i just had ryu push up against Chun and saved it. if you want to switch characters, you may need to change some timing. here’s a Youtube demonstration of the script in action: [media=youtube]NzAOkL7r3nI[/media]
just copy and paste the below text into one of the custom .MSI files in /Trust/Macro/macro & put the state in /Trust/sta/ssf2t and it should work.
Good stuff! btw your video is private, so we can’t see it yet. I was able to set it up fine as you described, but I just wondered at first if you had Chun near the corner after getting knocked down or not when I was making the savestate. (She’s not or at least, I got it to work without anyone near the corner… also, she is supposed to get knocked down, right? in order to get the Reversal throw when Ryu attempts the second low hard kick.) I’m really glad to see this- exactly the kind of practical thing players can use and it’s kept very simple and straightforward!
I could definitely not get the timing at first. Looking into the proper timing using frame-by-frame, I noticed that you need to throw on either frame 152 or 153 only. 151 and earlier, or 154 and higher will fail. Well, that is according to my particular savestate- might be different on others’ savestates, with such strict timing and how ST skips frames. I.e. maybe you guys will only get one frame window of opportunity instead of two frames. Please confirm (pause a little before frame 151, frame-advance while holding Right direction on stick plus fierce (3) hard punch, and try again on next loop to confirm for the next frame). I got Fei Long’s stage for whatever that’s worth but I doubt that matters whatsoever. The timing is such that you input the throw on the frame that you start to SEE ONSCREEN Ryu’s crouching low hard kick start to come out, like only the first frame. Here’s my Custom7SuccessReplay.mis script, below to complement yours. I added +.R3 - right after Ryu’s low hard kick. It can also be +…R3-, but not +…R3-.
+.R3 # <— XSPR adding P1@Chun’s inputs here. +…R3 also ok. +…R3 fails.
Thought I switched the vid link, but guess I forgot. Oops, should work now
Chun is near mid-screen, and she should be getting knocked down by the first c.HK. I was toying around with it by first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK, and then going for a reversal SBK on THAT knockdown if the throw failed. I couldn’t get the reversal throw working in frame-advance mode though, is there some trick to it?
My state seems a little different frame wise too, when I toggle the hitbox viewer the red box on Ryu’s c.HK doesn’t become active until frame 155, and Chun gets sweeped on frame 156.
I uploaded my save state if you want to check it out, here’s the link. Should be P1 Chun vs P2 Ryu on Ryu’s stage: http://www.2shared.com/file/ASUpS0Jk/69_online.html
There’s definitely something involving frame-skipping on my save states too. I was trying to get one where you could attempt a built-in DP vs. a reversal move (Chun’s Upkicks), but I could never get a consistent reversal. Most of the time they would be reversal, but occasionally not and sometimes don’t come out at all - on the same save state. Changing the frame she inputs kick on up or down by 1 can still get a reversal message sometimes. Really weird.
I can make a quick video explaining the process I go through in order to find it, but basically it’s a little trial and error. You start by saying, ok Chun has to throw AFTER she gets up, and BEFORE she gets hit by the 2nd crouching hard kick-- so try it on one frame in there. How to actually try it involves turning on input display (hotkey 5 which for my setup is the “5” key on my keyboard), and pressing P to pause it right before she gets up or as she’s getting up (this is around frame 140 or so). Then while it’s paused, frame-advance by using the backquote key. Ok so on my first try, let’s say frame 150 or so looks like a good time to attempt the throw. So I frame-advance to 149, then hold down P1@Chun’s right direction on the stick and hard punch or mid punch, and while still holding those inputs, frame-advance one more frame to frame 150. I can confirm I got the desired inputs (and didn’t “mess up the move” so to speak) by looking at the input display in lower left corner of the game window. That one frame worth or inputs should be enough to get it, so I can let go of Chun’s inputs and frame advance a few more times. I see that Ryu trips her, so I know that it’s not frame 150, and I have to try it on another frame. So I press the P key again and let the script loop again, then press P to pause it again around frame 140 or so, and frame-advance to say frame 154. It’s too late by that frame so I try it all again, by unpausing and letting the script cycle again. I got it on frame 152. (I usually confirm to myself that it actually works by trying it a second time from 152, just like I often press “C” on a calculator like 5 times even though pressing it once does the trick, or like how some people walk up to other people waiting for an elevator and the button is ALREADY PRESSED AND LIT yet they can’t resist pressing it, like what, that’s going to make the elevator come any faster?) Ok so that works, 152, maybe make a note of that, say add “# frame 152” in the script itself. But I want to have a more comprehensive understanding of the timing window, so I’ll reconfirm that 151 does NOT work and also try 153-- which does work. Then, I’ll go back to the script, copy it and paste it right below, comment out the original above and work on editing the copy as an automated solution/Observe version by adding Chun’s inputs along with Ryu’s. I can’t say just say “Chun throws on frame 152” in the script, so I again have to go through a little trial and error, and use frame-advance again to confirm if my first attempts are too early or too late. I.e. I know it’s 152, so after Ryu’s second “D6” I add +R3- but that doesn’t work, but since I know it’s 152 I can tell if I did it too early or too late using frame-advance when I watch it play back (again, with input display turned on). Another tweak or two will get it.
btw I noticed you said “first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK” but I’m not sure about the term “meaty” (never have been). I think the term was meant to refer to attacks that were already in the hitting stage or well into the hitting portion, as opposed to what the script has where Chun can stand up before the attack starts hitting and Ryu is still in the “start-up” stage of his cr. HK attack. Chun has a chance to throw because of this (ie I don’t think you can reversal throw if Ryu delays his attack such that the hitting portion occurs as she finishes getting up-- and if I’m wrong about that you can test it by just making Ryu’s cr. HK start slightly earlier in the script).
No I think that’s the same for my savestate too, you’re fine. 155 and 156 for me too. Keep in mind that the hitbox viewability presents boxes one frame behind I think. So basically by that point, if Chun hasn’t already completed her throw inputs (or started blocking low), she will get swept.
That sounds interesting but I’m not sure what you mean. Can you describe that savestate in more detail or post the script itself? What is a built-in DP, is that like Ryu will do a DP or block or something safe? Reversal messages should appear regardless of whether or not they actually hit or beat out other attacks. Sometimes in actual games we get a fireball instead of a DP which also gives the message (but loses to the opponent’s attack).
I got the frame skip test working, I think I wasn’t holding the commands down was the problem. I can only get the reversal throw on frame 153 though, 152 and 154 both fail even with multiple attempts on them. Just to be clear, I’m Inputting forward/MP on frame 153 to get the reversal throw.
I use “meaty” attacks for attacks where the hitting frames overlap the wakeup frames for your character. I thought in SF2 those can be reversal thrown due to the instant startup on throws (though I’m pretty new to SF2 so I’m not 100% on that). It looks like starting the cr.HK a frame earlier still allows Chun to get the throw in when you do frame by frame mode and input R + MP on each frame, but I’m not sure if the hitbox is active at that point.
For a built in DP, I thought it was where you input the move right before you hit the ground from a jump attack, and if the jump attack whiffs due to a reversal, the DP will come out. If the jump attack hits then the inputs would occur during Impact freeze and not come out. I didn’t get near that far when I was trying to create that script, all I was trying to get was consistent reversals from Chun.
Here’s the reversal script I wrote, I just used the same save state as above.
It seems like you get a reversal attack the majority of the times, but just from running this in the background I’ve seen non-reversal upkicks and nothing come out from the same save state/script. There’s definitely less chance of a reversal if I’m holding a button for P2 as well, though I’m not sure if that’s an ST issue or an emulator one.
So yeah, I got the good rom, and when I start either mame exe or observe/execute in TRUST, it REBOOTS my pc lol. How the hell ?.. My system is XP pro SP3.
Wolmar, could be any number of reasons, including bad RAM, old registry, or sector on HDD. I can offer some suggestions on ggpo next time we’re on.
I havent used these new scripts yet. But i can see how valuable these can be. So i just wanted to say thanks again for mrdhalsim for creating this tool, and continuing to provide scripts and schafly for a scenario thats obviously relavent to many, many players. And doing the testing and stuff for all of us who are too lazy(me, i swear, within the next year ill try it out myself! xD) and people who cant be bothered to do it themselves
On anotber note, what were you referring to when there’s more to it than actuqlly believed? Just the fact thats its more ambiguous than previously believed be ause of some specific (was it sector 2) wierdness? Or something else…
Thanks Unessential- yeah give it a try, once you see how to edit a script you can create your own in like 5 or 10 minutes and it’s not too difficult.
Basically I meant that, after Evo and how everyone saw MAO won, that players outside of Japan didn’t seem to understand just how ridiculously powerful the wall dive actually is. I’m told that back in the day some top players in the US did know about the Sector 2 counter, but how you’d even come up with that counter without the tools available today to research it is hard to even fathom. Just to guess which sector it will be to simply BLOCK the move is a 50/50 GUESS (Evo’s announcers jchensor and ultradavid were good about explaining this guessing element during the tournament, because it often “feels like” you are reacting when you are actually just guessing which way to block). If you want to actually COUNTER it, your chances go down to one out of three- but in practical terms, it’s even worse because a lot of the time the claw player can just come down outside of DP range and land safely, and do an attack while you recover from a whiffed DP (or whiffed punch recovery of a wrong sector guess, esp drumming all 3 punches).
Before Evo, I’d often downplay claw wins and people here would say I’m just whining, “It’s just a little baby bear in the woods XSPR, why do you look so scared? bears are just like all the other animals in the forest like deers and squirrels.” “Because I got mauled all the time by many claw players, bears are scary, omnivores and ridiculously overpowered” and they’d laugh, but then Evo came and it wasn’t just a little baby bear, it was the big mother bear, and at first the baby bear claws were all like “yeah I’m scary, I’m the best,” but they all got fucked up by the mother bear who was a lot more dangerous than the baby bears.
are you saying that MAO is the mother bear and ganelon is a harmless baby bear ?
So all Claw players are bears, and all the other characters are like…deer and squirrels and rabbits and shit. That’s what I took from this. LOL.
Hmm i get what you mean now with claw… Havent followed st news since before evo… Havent even watched the ToL yet…
But reading through your posts again i also recall seeing chuns counter with a standing mk which ive tried and failed. Now i sortof understand why i never got it to work, and also made me think ofna few possibilities why… Now for sure i gotta go in and create a script… Just a matter of when i can convince myself to get off my ass and actually do it … Lol :lol:
Since I saw recent pics of ARG and Otochun in tournaments (Otochun’s twitter), I again believe MAO was not the scariest thing to be seen by western players.
Microsoft: guessing wrong while taking over your own system resources for 30 years, and preventing you from using them properly.
While I agree that US players didn’t realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn’t the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.
However, the system doesn’t apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn’t fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn’t mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn’t that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.
I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren’t incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO’s. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney. Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the “big bears” and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn’t be aware of these games since they weren’t mentioned on SRK but that’s why it’s important to know all the facts.
As for me, I acknowledge that I can’t consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn’t the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.
Yes, MAO’s sector explanation was a very good and simple way to explain a very complex attack, and I only tested mid-screen to make it even more simple. Before this, the reasonable assumption for everyone is that, in order to counter it, you either DP left or right depending on which side you think he’ll come down on. How anyone is supposed to just figure out, on their own, that a THIRD counter, requiring a completely ABNORMAL sequence of inputs is required, is beyond me-- particularly when it is a motion completely OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of his entire moveset (ie yoga flame motion to get a DP? the heck is this, Rainbow Edition??).
I mean let’s say there’s some guy who has never played the game before and picks up the game. It’s reasonable to say that it won’t be long for him to figure out that he has to hold back to block. And after a while, block overheads without problem and understand they need to be blocked standing-- simply after playing the game a while and recognizing which attacks act as overheads. This Sector 2 wall dive counter isn’t quite like that. Even if you are “in the know”, and a good guesser, there is still fairly strict timing for it.
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying… I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don’t doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there’s some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means. And if Kawaks works too that is great. TRUST has integrated input and hitbox display, as well as scriptability for sharing and messing around (and easily repeating each others findings etc) but if it means the difference between someone testing something/making a video and not, by all means go for it.
When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him?? I think you’re confusing him with Tokido- who hasn’t focused on ST (or even played much of it outside of tournaments in America only?) in many years now and I think the US player you’re thinking of is not either of the Wolfe brothers but MrBob who has played in Japan for years. So I would call Tokido a baby bear. I don’t think Noguchi has lost to an American player, that I can think of off the top of my head either. In any case, ARG is a noted step up from both Tokido and Noguchi and MAO is a lot closer to ARG. As for me, MAO doesn’t have to try very hard at all to win, and neither do other big bears he can beat here. There are definitely other claw players here that aren’t even known outside of Japan that seem just as deadly with that wall dive and close to MAO’s level. When I played ARG a few times I think he was beating me with like two buttons. I’ll just say I could probably take out Tokido, if he ever picks it up again. (Obviously, I’d beat them all, but I played online and that screwed me up and ST isn’t a priority. )
Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we’re behind.
youtube com watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg#t=48s
(btw if you pause it at around 58 seconds, note which country is listed at the top of the list.)
For the record, I would like everyone to note that I am the best driver in the entire world and of all time, just in case anyone had any doubts. However due to the restrictive barriers to entry in professional racing, I have decided to focus on ST at this time. And I still cannot beat many players in Japan and I don’t really have any excuse.