Hmm i get what you mean now with claw… Havent followed st news since before evo… Havent even watched the ToL yet…

But reading through your posts again i also recall seeing chuns counter with a standing mk which ive tried and failed. Now i sortof understand why i never got it to work, and also made me think ofna few possibilities why… Now for sure i gotta go in and create a script… Just a matter of when i can convince myself to get off my ass and actually do it … Lol :lol:


Since I saw recent pics of ARG and Otochun in tournaments (Otochun’s twitter), I again believe MAO was not the scariest thing to be seen by western players.

Microsoft: guessing wrong while taking over your own system resources for 30 years, and preventing you from using them properly.


While I agree that US players didn’t realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn’t the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.

However, the system doesn’t apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn’t fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn’t mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn’t that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.

I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren’t incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO’s. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney. Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the “big bears” and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn’t be aware of these games since they weren’t mentioned on SRK but that’s why it’s important to know all the facts.

As for me, I acknowledge that I can’t consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn’t the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.


Yes, MAO’s sector explanation was a very good and simple way to explain a very complex attack, and I only tested mid-screen to make it even more simple. Before this, the reasonable assumption for everyone is that, in order to counter it, you either DP left or right depending on which side you think he’ll come down on. How anyone is supposed to just figure out, on their own, that a THIRD counter, requiring a completely ABNORMAL sequence of inputs is required, is beyond me-- particularly when it is a motion completely OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of his entire moveset (ie yoga flame motion to get a DP? the heck is this, Rainbow Edition??).

I mean let’s say there’s some guy who has never played the game before and picks up the game. It’s reasonable to say that it won’t be long for him to figure out that he has to hold back to block. And after a while, block overheads without problem and understand they need to be blocked standing-- simply after playing the game a while and recognizing which attacks act as overheads. This Sector 2 wall dive counter isn’t quite like that. Even if you are “in the know”, and a good guesser, there is still fairly strict timing for it.

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying… I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don’t doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there’s some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means. And if Kawaks works too that is great. TRUST has integrated input and hitbox display, as well as scriptability for sharing and messing around (and easily repeating each others findings etc) but if it means the difference between someone testing something/making a video and not, by all means go for it.

When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him?? I think you’re confusing him with Tokido- who hasn’t focused on ST (or even played much of it outside of tournaments in America only?) in many years now and I think the US player you’re thinking of is not either of the Wolfe brothers but MrBob who has played in Japan for years. So I would call Tokido a baby bear. I don’t think Noguchi has lost to an American player, that I can think of off the top of my head either. In any case, ARG is a noted step up from both Tokido and Noguchi and MAO is a lot closer to ARG. As for me, MAO doesn’t have to try very hard at all to win, and neither do other big bears he can beat here. There are definitely other claw players here that aren’t even known outside of Japan that seem just as deadly with that wall dive and close to MAO’s level. When I played ARG a few times I think he was beating me with like two buttons. I’ll just say I could probably take out Tokido, if he ever picks it up again. (Obviously, I’d beat them all, but I played online and that screwed me up and ST isn’t a priority. :wink: )

Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we’re behind.

Except one.

youtube com watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg#t=48s

(btw if you pause it at around 58 seconds, note which country is listed at the top of the list.)

For the record, I would like everyone to note that I am the best driver in the entire world and of all time, just in case anyone had any doubts. However due to the restrictive barriers to entry in professional racing, I have decided to focus on ST at this time. And I still cannot beat many players in Japan and I don’t really have any excuse.


Mr.D, what he means is that in the corner Claw does not have a cross up game. You can wall dive all you want in sector 1 and sector 2 and nothing happens, the opponent only needs hold back and he can block wall dive all day. Wall dive doesn’t get more dangerous, quite the opposite. Of course, that’s where Izuna drop comes into play, but it’s risky as many characters have good AA that will hit before Claw gets close enough to Izuna. DeeJay standing MP, Shoto standing LP and HP, and other moves like those will hit him. Going behind the opponent for a sector 3 hit is impossible in the corner, that’s why Damdai’s main anti-Claw strategy is to work the corner to his favor using O.Ken, who has a fast DP with invulnerability all the way up and the fierce DP having good horizontal range. Claw has no choice but to attack from the front, jumping over fireballs and risking a DP. I think on a better day, Damdai would have done better against MAO. Maybe not win, but definitely better. MAO got him to the center of the stage and that’s when he starting killing Damdai’s game, because Damdai had to guess which side to DP since he didn’t have the corner to protect him anymore.


Yes, I was referring to wall dives being more powerful near the corner due to multiple side switching. If you know exactly where your opponent’s midpoint is, you can cross back and forth and mess up inputs further (but there’s a fine line to doing it so that it doesn’t help the opponent more easily pull off a reversal). That’s why the sector system comes with constraints. I’m certain MAO knew about this situation but he just wanted to keep things simple for his explanation.

Nobody I’ve played in the US or Japan can stop my wall dives near the corner, but that’s also a tough spot to score a knockdown. There are counters even there for shotos that I’ve been able to pull off at times but they may be too difficult to perform consistently compared to just blocking. I was surprised at MAO’s wall dives because he was able to nail them mid-screen and no US shoto player seemed to have a consistent answer. I’m not sure if he has particular timing, positioning, and/or something else, but avoiding reversal OS hasn’t been something I’ve been able to do with my knockdown wall dives.

In the corner, wall dives are useless against most characters. In addition to what Moonchilde mentioned, there are guaranteed punishments, but they differ depending on the corner.

It was one of the pre-SBO team tourneys during the US team’s trip last year. If I recall, it was either immortal or riz0ne who defeated ARG in a surprise to everyone. I heard you met up with the gang during their visit so feel free to ask them yourself if you need further details. Knowing that might help explain why I think your classifications don’t make much sense and why US players thought they had a fair chance against MAO until they played him. Casuals don’t mean much but if we consider that JP players play similarly as they do in tourneys (i.e. much less sandbagging than here), then every US player who played your other “big bears” in casuals found MAO in casuals to be much more difficult.

I don’t dispute that, but I’m not sure how that relates to ST or specific individuals. For example, the US has the most wins for the Nobel Prize in Physics and all the other physical fields. Does that indicate the cream of the crop in physics is in the US? And does that suddenly translate into ST ability?

Anyway, you misinterpreted my last paragraph. I’m not saying I’ve ever had the ability to beat MAO or Tokido—who NKI once said was the top claw mirror specialist in Japan no doubt thanks to his wall dive timing and positioning. I was just explaining why the mirror would continue to be one of my most difficult offline matches no matter how much I practiced on GGPO.


I don’t remember any of the guys I met up with last year ever saying that ARG lost to an American player. I could be wrong but in any case yes, we did meet and we played right before they flew back. (After confirming he’s ok since Sandy, I asked Damdai to be sure but haven’t gotten a reply back yet.)

While you may (or may not) be good at doing wall dives, I am not convinced you’re anywhere near the Japanese level. I mean I could say, between us, I’m undefeated and never, ever lost to you, not even once. I didn’t mention Nobel Peace prizes, I was pointing out the difference between “facts” vs “confidence” where the US ranks low in one, and high in the other. I don’t think I misinterpreted your last paragraph- I was agreeing about ever having the ability to beat MAO, I was just saying that it doesn’t matter whether GGPO screwed up your timing or not. Maybe it’s due to GGPO, maybe due to something you don’t know. Right now, you don’t really know what you don’t know so you can’t say for sure what would happen if it weren’t for GGPO’s effect. In order to find out for sure, maybe you could become the hunter in the woods, and go hunt down all those bears in Japan. But you never know, you could do that, chase one down and think you have a little baby bear cornered, but then all of a sudden, you turn right around and run screaming from it. How could that possibly happen? You never know. The big mother bear is standing behind it, and accommodating for the GGPO effect didn’t help.

btw Let’s please continue non-TRUST stuff in another thread (and link to these posts from there).


Mrdhalsim, please check my latest post on that xup thread if you havent already, i go into detail about the frameskip issue.


damdai is tied up in my basemenmt, thats why he ahsnt replied to you. ill tgell jim you saifdhia





I agree that it’s not certain how well I’m performing wall dives. Based on results, I’d say MAO is clearly doing something better in mid-screen scenarios. I’m just saying mine are good enough that in certain situations, nobody in the world can stop them.

I brought up Nobel Prizes to illustrate how your analogy about confidence vs. skill in science for little kids doesn’t consider at all the skill in science for top level scientists. US kids may be confident about science because we have the world’s highest rewarded scientists here, even if the majority of people aren’t any good in science. I was showing how the “facts” you pointed out only show a limited perspective that could easily be viewed in an opposite manner (e.g. that confidence comes from national pride in top level ability), not unlike your perspective on ST.

As for the claw mirror, sure, there could always be another factor than online charge timing. But again, that wasn’t my point. My point was that even if I knew everything, charge timing is so critical of a point in that specific matchup that I still couldn’t consistently win. MAO’s play should easily show the fundamental importance of fast wall dives to you, even if he has other tools in his repertoire.

As for the comparison between you and me, the problem with your analogy is that we’ve never played in any form at all. I would gladly mm you offline even in my current state but I suspect you don’t have any plans to return to the US for an ST tourney and you consider claw too difficult for your main anyway. I’m not sure if I made this clear but back in 2010, I already played the JP folks you refer to as apex predators in casuals. There were lion kings that had an edge on me and tiger moms that crushed me, but there were also mama bears that I matched blow for blow, alpha wolves that had trouble against me, and crocodile ancients that I bludgeoned.

I had over a 10-win streak at Mikado during the packed Wed. session the week of SBO 2010—which is how I discovered the way Mikado links its machines up for freeplay. Now, I don’t think casuals mean much, even in serious-play-all-the-time Japan, but in light of tourney results elsewhere, I don’t see why you’re so quick to dismiss US players. Peg us down a notch or 2 under our Japanese brethren after this Evo, fine, but us old eagles are still dangerous to all but the wildest animal mothers.

Anyway, since you started the non-TRUST talk in this topic, I’d rather finish it here this time around. I suppose if there’s one thing we can both support, it’s the TRUST tool.


I heard back from Damdai. He said the only time they met up with ARG, he thinks the only person to beat him was YuuVega in the tournament and mentioned no wins by any US player against him period.

re: Nobel Prizes, it ain’t just the little kids, many of whom have grown up:

Ah, you found me out-- yes, I made the statement about never losing to you while never having played you in the first place. I felt it was apt to express it that way for your view about how well you think you’d do against Japanese players, with the same veil of supposed reasons as to why. and, although I’m no mm fan in general, esp vs. a claw player but to prove the point, I will see your mm proposal, and RAISE you a mm proposal! I don’t imagine you have any plans to return to Japan for an ST tourney or the next XMANIA but if you decide to show up to the next one, we can come to some arrangement.


Is damdai sure they only met one time? For example, I would think they saw each other at SBO as well. Was there no east vs. west style line tournament that they played against each other in? If not, then I’ll ask my contact later. If it was just a casual match win against ARG that I heard so excitedly about (that broke a win streak or something?), then I’ll definitely apologize for the mistake since I agree that casual matches aren’t a big deal.

As for that report on skilled workers, OK, but it still only addresses regular folks. I brought up Nobel Prizes because we were discussing some of the best comp around, not regular joes. And amongst the very best scientific talent, the US is still on top.

As for your comment about playing me, I already stated how it doesn’t match what I’m claiming. We haven’t played at all, not even online. But I’ve played the Japanese players I’m referring to in-person, even if it wasn’t in-tourney. Playing and not playing is a black-and-white difference in expectations. As I’ve repeated numerous times now, that experience is the whole reason behind US confidence, and not just mine either.

I have no current plans to return to Japan but if I do, I’ll be glad to accept our mm and show you my perspective. How badly do you expect me to fare against the mama bears by the way? Since Evo, I won’t say I’m near equal but I’d be willing to bet that except against 5 or so of the toughest players, I won’t lose worse than 5-3 to the rest of Tokyo’s best players. I believe I’d win some too but I’m not willing to bet that except on a case-by-case basis being as out-of-shape as I am today. I don’t think losing 5-3 is very impressive with claw (and that MAO could certainly do better) but if you’re expecting something like 5-1 or worse because of a perceived difference in skill and are willing to put serious money behind that belief, as well as on our mm, then we might be able to work a deal out for a visit perhaps as early as this January.


Here was my question to Damdai: “btw did any of you guys that came to Japan for SBO (or any other time) ever play ARG? Did anyone actually win against him? Ganelon claims so in the forum.” and here was his reply: “I only remember him at one Nakano Royal event we went to. I think Yuu Vega peaced him out of the tournament.”

When adjusted for per capita, the US doesn’t even make the top 10 laureates: Also, you can win a Nobel Prize and still have a list of people you are trying to kill. An American managed to do that already so what does that tell you about Nobel Prizes.

I will put serious money behind this belief that I’d win in a mm against you: 100 yen. I don’t think you’d beat any of the mama bears. If you want me to pass along any particular mm challenges to Japanese players, just let me know and I’ll put the word out.


I’ll ask further on that ARG point before repeating it again then. I doubt I could beat the mama bears now without some hardcore practice either, hence why the match spread is in their favor.

I’m not a fan of calling anybody out for a money match without significant reason, hence why my $200+ challenge for the past 2 Evos was directed not to anyone in particular but rather a challenge at large to the US. But if I ever qualify for SBO again, I’ll definitely call on you for some modest (<=$20) mms to any bear who wants to play.

EDIT: I asked around and it appears I was wrong. The US has never beaten ARG (or any of the 3 big bear JP claws) in-tourney. The win I heard about last year only happened in regular casuals. And I would agree that’s not the best predictor of serious play. I strive to relay accurate info and base my opinions on such so my apologies for the confusion.


Program looks nice.


Fluxcore has a great report about that “block cross-up by going to neutral” thing using scripts:


mrdhalsim, thx for such a well done training tool.

Is the zip in the google code project the latest version? Is there any place where you push the branches and updates?

It’d be easier to contribute if there’s an open repository to manage issues and new patches. The google code repository with a slight different setup would be enough. Thanks!


Off top (or on topic) why do people still call it “wall dive”? d,u+p wall dive. d,u+k is barcelona attack…