Trying to stop Turtling

balrog

#1

I notice im losing to many matches lately just turtling, and I found that recently that im downbacking alot. Waiting for a jump in so I cr.fierce. I dont know any good ways of applying pressure without eating an SRK. I just have this weird feeling that IM NOT playing rog the way I need too.


#2

I find that the best pressure is to just walk up and sit there. If you’re going against a masher, chances are that he’ll just wake-up srk.

Works for me.


#3

If you’re really good at teching throws, then walk up block on your opps wakeup will do wonders. It’s really hard to pressure people who have srk’s, but just take into account the risk they take if you block, or you frame trap with an ex.dash, and it’ll make it easier to apply jab pressure and tick throws.


#4

I’ve been trying to improve my Boxer for a while now and although I’m really far from being a good player, I could maybe give you a few tips. I’ve been suffering of the same thing, turtling. Although I play relatively offensive, it seems too predictable. I’ve been going on training mode and practicing my s.LP > cr.HK these past days, and I’ve been playing with no back-charge in order to get used to not turtling.

I don’t know if I’m wrong, but holding downback really sets a pattern in terms of spacing and pacing. So far, it seems to work, you could try that out. I’m always trying to better my game so I try to experiment in many ways. Watching JS Master’s video really made me feel like my guess was probably not wrong. I’m usually a ice0age follower, but watching other Rogs really helped me a lot.


#5

You’ll pick up bad habits if you do that for too long.


#6

There’s lots of things you can do. If anything, unavoidable command grabs, chip damage, high priority, ex coating moves that otherwise could counter poke with ease, safe moves, projectiles which is basically a flying punch, being able to focus out of whiffed uppercuts, a rather difficult to tech normal grab, focus breakers makes it very easy to mash your heart out.

At the same time charge moves which forces you to block but able to attack at the same time, big screen so you can simply walk backwards and it resets since the other person would require taking time to get to you making them bored to the point its mind numbing can be a fake sense of defense, not to mention if someone tried to focus they still take the damage when they get hit by anything else even if its more effort and the focus was well executed. There isn’t side stepping so it’s almost impossible not to know where they are going to move at all times besides backwards and forwards. Not to mention using focus also requires you to dash out of anything, games I played before had counter grabs that lasted as long as grab animations so that anyone mashing an attack would get countered and anyone mashing out counters would get grabbed but didn’t make it brain dead easy to mash our over complicate.

That aside your tools are: Sweep, anti air, anti crouch and pokes, forward command pokes having more reach gives you more control with your close range spacing being able to counter hit things or land it first. Use focus to counter attacks which apparently some attacks break through focus. Use grabs to grab counter attacks or blockers which apparently focus can hit a person trying to grab you if you release it fast or take the easy way and just dash backwards. There’s also focus guard break, I used it a lot epically with no anti crouch or simply as a bluff.

Play however you want, its just a game.


#7

Thanks for all the advice, some real good tips in here for me to think and apply to my game.

I also find that when im trying to do blockstrings like cr.jab cr.jab cr. strong before I can end it with a dash they already have jumped over, landed behind me and im done for. Alot of players online love to jump over rog, and im having a hard time finding a solution to this?


#8

Don’t end in dash?

You could end with a s.hk, probably; would stuff a jump (check frame data here; I’m no rog main). If they’re consistently jumping over you, just stop throwing the dash. Let them jump and AA them.


#9

make your blockstring tighter, don’t get me wong, there’s only a 3f gap between a blocked cr.lp, and a cr.mp, but it’s enough to clear the hitbox i think. Just go with your run of the mill jab jab short lp.dash straight. It works really well for a reason, since it hits low, comes out pretty fast and is a true block string if you get it right.

imo cr.mp used in blockstrings is only good at mid range (so two jab distances). All it does really well is zone and space, it’s not good for frame advantage on block. cr.mp links into cr.lp on CH, so that’s something to keep in mind as a kind of frame trap (3f gap on regular hit). If anyone’s pressuring you from the air and it seems like there’s nothing you can do about it, make the spacing. Look at this video, it’s really old (maybe a year now lol), but it shows how difficult it can be to pressure down+back rog from the air:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMGcGFbsCEk&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s


#10

THANK YOU! You answered my question about jab jab strong, I need to use cr.jab cr.jab cr.short more offten. Thanks for going the extra mile and including the video.


#11

Whenever I get tips from other people, I am told to get a keep a charge ( though I like to take advantage of his normals than his specials) but 3nigmat1c, how do you make blockstrings tighter? just practice?


#12

making cr.lp, cr.lk tight is…really fucking difficult. You can plink to make your strings tighter, or you can bait and punish your opponents for attempting to mash between the cr.lp, cr.lk string. Think of it this way, on hit, cr.lp, cr.lk is a 3f link, while on block its a 1f link.


#13

Thanks, I will try that.


#14

On another note as long as we are on the toppic of pressue. Instead of focusing your attention on block strings (although very helpful in some situations) Rogs mind games are more important. What your opponent thinks you can do is more damaging that what you actually do.
Getting your block strings down is great, keep working at it.
Work on focusing your attention on moving forward and not backwards. Too many times I see Rog players moving to far away from someone who gets stronger with distance AKA Sagat, Vega etc.
Good practice for this is to work on two crouching jabs, then stand, move forward a hair then crouch and jab twice more.
Once you get good at something like this, you can start mixing in throws, then once you put that idea into the head of your opponent… magic happens.
You apply a little pressure with two crouching jabs, then stand and throw in a standing roundhouse. Mixup baby.
This is just another example of all the things that Rog can do when it comes to boxing/pressure. If Rog gets you in the corner, he can start working you pretty hard.


#15

i’ll agree with that, staggered jabs has its own mind-games associated with it, but as a friend pointed out SF4 rewards being defensive, so if you’re playing someone who can block and tech throws really well, then tick throws and staggered jabs get you no-where. Pretty much you have three things you can do to pressure an opponent :
[LIST]
[]blockstrings/frame traps
[
]tickthrows
[]baits
[
]Jump-ins
[/LIST]
IMO, these are your options, and even they can be further consolidated to maybe just two: blockstrings/frametraps and tickthrows. Throws beat block, and tech beats throws, so when your opponent is really proficient in blocking high and low and teching throws, then your only option is to bait. Blockstrings that cause chip damage also apply pressure, since they lose health for blocking, that’s the function of chip damage: to give less reward for blocking. So ending combos in ex.ds is is a safer way to apply pressure, give a sort of frame trap AND be safe on block. Baiting is really important when opening up a really defensive player, whether it’s staggered jabs with tick throws or blockstrings.

I said that wall of text, in general, just to say that Balrog’s mind-games are really…simple so to speak. Mind games can open up opponents who can’t tech or block proficiently, but for those who can, blockstrings that cause chip damage, have equal usage since they can do the same thing (mind-game), but also permanently take away life. For example, lets say an opponent only has chip damage left (50 stamina) and you do lp.OH (-5 on block, they go OH shit I can punish), then you FA cancel, charge to a lvl2, since they weren’t ready for it, then you release, dash forward, cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk xx hp.ds FTW. Dont’ get me wrong, there’s definitely places to punish hardcore in that string, but i’m just saying how important block strings are along with tick-throws and staggered jabs.


#16

Awesome, I think we do have a “What went wrong” around here…I will probably post a video or so.


#17

It’s the opposite for me. I often don’t ever hang back or, at least, hang back when I SHOULD be - There are matches where things are going dicey and I respect my opponent enough NOT to waltz up to them and apply my usual shinanigan pressure, sure, but it’s not the same as being entirely defensive.

Any wins I get are generally through being all over the opponent and mixing things up any way I can - I simply DO NOT have the patience for turtle matches, so I automatically cringe when I have to face a Blanka, Gief, THawk, Dhalsim etc

Mashers & Reversal Whores: Bait, Punish - As above, don’t be afraid to throw them off with cancels… I find my meter is always pretty well sustained in matches despite the fact I burn through my super-bar like butter. I’ve won many a match against people just gagging for that last bit of chip on Balrog to win, only to SRK thin air with a TAP/Dash cancel backdash into free jumping to Ultra for the Rogster while they facepalm at their error.

My favourite moment, more aggressive than defensive, was TAP’ing at a Gouken who blocked, cancelled into level 2 Focus which he ate a crumple from, backdash, TAP into Ultra Juggle - Looked fun and I don’t use it enough. If a player is more inclined to try punish seemingly unsafe dashes/TAP’s from you with their own high-frame normals (Sweeps, MK etc) then a Focus Crumple is possible if you’re willing to risk 2-bars.


(10 second mark, don’t bother with the rest)

I’ve yet to start using the standing strong frametrap but I know it’s there. I don’t adopt the bulldogging method (CJab, forward, CJab, forward repeat) much unless I encounter someone playing stupidly defensive, in which case I’ll happily push them to the corner with that and throw attempts.

When on the offensive, don’t underestimate jumping over an opponent on their wakeup. If I’m playing a Guile/Bison etc I WILL be looking to ruin their charge at any possible chance I can. In addition, a headbutt knockdown + immediate jumpover will land you behind some and infront of others - This can confuse a lot of people and there is a way to alternate where you land based on what air-normal you use. I’m pretty sure using a certain kick in the air can land you behind some characters who would otherwise be landed infront of if no move was pressed. In addition, done right, you are in a perfect spot to throw or jab their wakeup. I also tweak this for Shoto’s who I suspect will lob out the feared SRK. There’s nothing funnier than watching a typical SRK spammer (wakeup) hit thin air while you land behind them for free combos or throws.

Learn your safejumps and even learn what will trade. If I’m looking to finish off a Ryu on their wakeup, I know if they have no EX meter, my jumpin-fierce or neutral jump fierce WILL trade if they try a non-EX SRK.

Not much else springs to mind - Even I’m still learning… Yeah, after 2 years :stuck_out_tongue: