Twelve vs Ken

twelve

#1

I’ll make this quick - going to a ranking battle this Sunday, decided I’m going to stick with Twelve rather than use Chun-Li because Twelve is infinitely more fun to play as. Problem is Ken is far the most popular character here in the UK and he gives my Twelve fits.

I’ve never ever ever EVER beaten a Ken player with Twelve in a serious match. Ever. I’ve tried rushdown (that ended quickly), I’ve tried turtling (matter of time before I get hit with some sort of link/short short xx Shippu bullshit), I’ve tried running away (best option but EX hurricane will eventually trap me in the corner).

What’s the gameplan? I’m going to run away, spam crouching MP, then EX dive away from Ken’s ass if he even thinks about getting near me. Obviously, I need more than that. Like, I’m going to have to try and hit Ken at some point.

Any ideas?

(Note: It’s also worth pointing out that the second most played character over here is Urien. The UK clearly hates Twelve.)


#2

you have to be really solid to play 12 bottom line…esp in a tourney let alone casual…
you have to be able to have a good runaway game vs ken…go to combovideos.com and get thongboy bebop’s video on 12…it is dope…shows all kinds of shit…

you should just be trying to throw with 12…and u need to be able to instant air dash away with him from kens traps…you can dash under sphere’s on urien…you just have to predict which one your opp. will throw out based on the situation.


#3

I have issues giving advice against Ken, mostly because I’m really not that great. So I hope I don’t spout anything TOO dumb.

EX NDLs are gonna be your best friend (at least they are against the Kens here). If Ken’s turtling and spamming fireballs for some reason, make sure he’s not jumping before you throw one. If he’s bulldogging, anti-air him with 'em.

If Ken is severely jump-in happy (cross-up mk, EX hurricanes, etc.), start getting used to the spacing of that crap and throw out some good HPs. Make him think twice.

Shoryukens…if you knock Ken down and rush him, you’ll see a shoryu (obviously, not being an ass). Few ways. One, the lk dive will stop short of any srk if done right. Two, j.HK early enough and you’ll stop short of Ken’s lp srk. Three, throw out j.HP from as far away as possible…get the Ken player thinking about whether or not they should SRK. The more they think, the more they have a chance to screw up, get hit by the j.HP or, if you don’t do the j.HP, get thrown by you on the ground. (They’re not used to thinking…they’re playing as Ken, remember? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: )

If Ken doesn’t have any meter left (dunno how often this happens), it might not be too bad of an idea to bulldog him for a brief time. Cross-up j.HKs, IAD - throw setups, something until he gets enough meter for a super…or even just enough for an EX shoryuken.

If he gets close to you, good luck. Keep him the hell away by mixing up close highs and lows (don’t get parried, or it’s shippu). IAD away or IAD and throw him effing asap. If you’re in the corner, good night. Jump and dive the hell out of there or IAD or something, but just don’t stand there.

And, my own stupid thing…I throw out mk every now and again when I’m not anywhere near him and I know he might advance (I do this against everyone). The fact that it moves me forward a little bit throws people off a bit…it might be that they just need to learn that, or it might be that I just like the spacing of it that much. I dunno. Experiment…you’re using Twelve. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

…I really don’t know what else to say…sorry. ^^;


#4

EX NDLs will be your friend none the less, good anti-air against his stupid MK cross-up.

Try to zone him with air-dash deep HP (from max range) and if blocked use a standing HK (from max range)

If you block SA3 just go for a throw, dont try to super him. Quite possible for Ken to counter-throw or SRK u like the faggot he is.

Early HP against his early jump-in’s is also good.

Bait him for attacks basically. Air-Dash MK (whiff) works well. Just walk and throw cause the bitch will go for his gay SRK. But dont try to punish a jab SRK ever I mean ever or he will SRK u again. Always capitalize on whiffed SRKS (MP/HP/EX) with a walk-up throw or standing close MK, SA1

Base your game mainly around throwing them. And learn to counter his cross-up or standard jumping MK with HP, AXE (LP), walk-under, block, parry to AXE, EX NDL

Air-dash to LK DRA also works everynow and then to bait him for a throw but still risky none the less


#5

Sdouble - yeah, I’ve seen the vid. And I don’t mind fighting Urien that much (I usually lose but at least I know what to do against him). It’s fighting Ken that gives me a brain fart.

Hogosha - EX NDLs and EX air dives are good but the problem is when Twelve runs out of meter, it’s a case of desperately trying to survive until you can get away again which, Catch 22, usually involves an EX dive.

I might try baiting the SRKs but I’m not convinced the reward is worth the risk. From previous experience, Ken players will absolutely not be put off throwing out jab SRKs at everything Twelve does (which is what you’d expect from a good Ken player in this match-up, I guess).

One thing about Ken and his cross-up MK is walk under > throw is an easy way of dealing with it. That’s not what I’m scared off. What I’m scared off is being stuck in the corner, no meter to escape, Ken with a Shippu locked and loaded.

The MK thing sounds interesting. I’ll give that a shot.

cam347 - Lots of nice stuff there. I’ll see how it works out.

Just thinking about this match-up makes me want to pick Chun-Li!


#6

Well one tip I remember from Thongboy’s 12 Turorial vid is to do an IAD (Instant Air Dash; tap :uf:, :r: ) and quickly cancel it by pressing HP or HK, this’ll trick the Ken player to whip off a Shoryuken leaving them open.
Plus don’t forget that Standing MP is your friend.


#7

I think the worse thing is gettin knocked down espcially in the corner cause Ken can go high with his command overhead or UOH or he can crouching MK, and all of these attacks can combo into a super. So beating also takes some good guesswork


#8

dont do it dont do it man. I’ll admit I play Chun-Li but u got to rep for ur fellow 12 brothas, espcially if u win no one will expect that and it will look better than some arrogant Chun-Li or Ken player winning the tourney


#9

Okay, I’m back… only had two shotos (one Ken and one Denjin Ryu) and no Uriens in my group, so I did okay. Lost two matches, won two matches, drew the rest and lost the play-offs to make the quarter-finals to a Dudley player. Also had a Twelve mirror match, lol. So that was fun. Got spanked by the Ken though. I mean SPANKED. Random notes from the matches I played:

  • Ken is all about momentum. If he gets the knockdown, he can start cross-up MKs on your wake-up, then Twelve is screwed as he has no answer apart from blocking or parrying (eurgh). But what I found out, and I don’t know if the Ken player lucked out or not, is that air EX hurricane beats Twelve’s EX air dive clean. No trades, just beat it clean, three times. That really sucked because air EX hurricane = Twelve knocked down and near the corner = death.

  • Pre-emptive FP is a bad idea against Ken because Ken can pre-empt himself and dash, then cr. MK xx Shippu. Normally, I’d use jump back > EX dive as an anti-air but like I said, I was getting swatted out the air by EX hurricanes everytime I tried. Now I’m completely stuck lol

  • Twelve’s flying can really kill sloppy Denjin set-ups.

  • IAD does not work against shotos. They can, and will, jab SRK you out of everything. As for the baiting SRK, it’s not really worth the risk/reward when all you can do is throw them afterwards.

  • Neutral throw, dash, neutral throw. I guarantee this will catch someone out who’s tech rolling at least once (apart from shotos, who seem to spaz out and tech roll > jab SRK all the god damn time).

  • EX N.D.L. is really good against Q. Really good. When he’s taunted three times and you’ve gone from attacking to running anyway, EX N.D.L. kills Q’s dash punch. Why? Because it tracks fast enough to keep up with Q (good) and Twelve ducks when he puts his tentacles in the ground, which ducks Q’s initial punch (if it’s going high, of course). From fullscreen, you can easily stick them out on reaction to a dash punch. Nice.

  • FP and jump-back FP owns another Twelve who is using IAD. If the other player starts doing the same and using FP and jump-back FP, you can start raining down EX dives on his ass, which beat both of those clean. I used X.C.O.P.Y. for this match but you have to be really disciplined to do so - I kept using the odd EX dive, which kept me from using the super from ages. Also, the worst damage Twelve can take when transforming back, realistically, is a FP/FK poke. So it doesn’t hurt to use that super.

  • EX dives are really good against Yang. He has no anti-air, so he’s going to try and jump and FP/FK you but you can convince him that’s it’s NOT in his best interest to do so by EX diving his attempts to meet you in the air. Air dash MP works pretty well for this too. Once you’ve stopped Yang from jumping everywhere, the match-up gets much easier.

  • I don’t know if this is safe on block or not but I managed to get away with air dash > HP A.X.E. everytime I tried it. If it lands deep (well, deep-ish), Twelve seems to be completely safe. Maybe reversal Shippu might snag it or something but I got away with it every single time I tried. Nice for chip damage, nicer if it hits, better still because it gives Twelve another air option so parrying his ass becomes much harder.

That’s all I can think of for now…


#10

good to hear man. Dudley can be hard but that match-up you have to be offensive. It’s easier to anti-air HP than yo uthink though his jump is short. Short enough to not be able to parry in time


#11

Thanks cam. I lost momentum towards the end of the last round against Dudley and couldn’t really get back into the match - I just got straight up out played at that point (Dudley’s standing FK beats a LOT of Twelve’s shit). Still, it’s a learning experience, it’s all good.

HP worked really well at the start of the first round against Dudley, followed up by another HP for good measure. It’s amazing the amount of people that jump, get hit by HP, then try jump in again straight after. A nice opener against Dudley because without meter, there’s not a lot he can hurt you with. I kinda back off trying HP as anti-air after that because when Dudley has meter, there’s the threat of EX machine gun blow. Dudley’s jump doesn’t really let me pick up on it in time for HP to use it as another other than psychic AA. I used jump back > EX dive instead.


#12

hey you said in one of your posts that the risk reward ratio wasn’t good b/c all you could do was get a throw out of it…WHAT ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO GET WITH 12 unless you have meter!!! throws are your main weapon…once your opponent gets use’t to you throwing then start ticking into them and getting what little damage you can with pokes…if your going to make it with 12 you have to be able to play runaway…12 can’t stand and fight against anyone face to face for too long…it’s too risky.


#13

I have the same problem with Dudley that I have with Chun-Li…the previously-mentioned high priority move whoring (HK for Duds, b+HP or just HP for the bitch). If they start doing crap like that, all I can do is mix up the timing on air dash HPs or IAD HK and c.HK once I land. I hate those two for that.

Friend of mine came over a couple nights ago and was whoring out Ken for a while. Against his Ken, his Makoto, his Dudley, his Chun, and his Alex, I found myself using MK a lot, especially if I have them guessing and/or in the corner. If it whiffs, it moves forward, and they usually don’t expect it to whiff…by the time they see it and try to do something (srk withstanding), they usually eat something else, like a c.LK or a throw or something. If they’re Ken, they’ll try and srk ya…so space a bit better with it. If the move hits, sj cancel it to air dash.

Another trick I’ve been trying when they’re in the corner, since I suck at c.lk - AXE (lp) - XNDL and need to involve some degree of risk in my supers, is air dashing, whiffing a j.MK, and doing c.lk - XNDL immediately when I land. Got it on his Ken once or twice when I trained him to NOT do SRKs for a little while.

As far as baiting srks and the high risk/low reward part…it’s very true. However, we’re playing Twelve. His entire game reeks of high risk and low reward. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: With that said, I’d personally rather take the risk with baiting the SRK and attempt to train them a little bit than try to rely on Twelve’s “strengths” against cross-ups and shippu. It’s a match-up that we shouldn’t win, but we don’t have a choice but to try, and I’d rather try to make the Ken player start guessing than give him the chance to go into the auto-win routine.

…my Twelve’s a bit random and needs work, so I gotta rely on stupid parlor tricks like that. ^^;


#14

a match we shouldn’t win? I’m sorry, but Ken scrubs must be taught a lesson, and what better way then beatin them with shit tier


#15

Woah chill out. I know throws are his mean weapon but what I meant is the air dash > FK is not worth risking against Ken for two reasons:

  1. His jab SRK recovers so damn quickly that if your spacing isn’t perfect, he can pop another one off when he lands. You have to be really close to bait him.
  2. If he does hit you with the jab SRK, then he can do his BS jab SRK, jab SRK combo. And he has you knocked down, so he can dash up and begin pressuring your wake-up.

Sure, if a scrub is whoring out fierce SRK to try and swat you out of the air, great. But I haven’t run up against any scrub Kens in serious matches yet. It would probably be a viable strategy if Twelve had better defense like Q or Alex and could afford to get spanked once or twice, but he doesn’t. So it’s not worth it. My point being risk of getting hit by jab SRK x2 then having to deal with Ken’s BS on wake-up > reward of one throw. Maybe against Ryu and Akuma but Ken? Nah.

But hey, it’s personal playing style. I’m not going to scream and shout that anyone’s wrong because with Twelve for playing that way… well, everything is wrong lol different strokes for different folks. After all, that’s why we’re using Twelve in the first place, right? :wgrin:

Hogosha - same goes for Elena’s b+FK, annoying as hell when that beats out all of Twelve’s crap. I forgot to use your MK thing! It really does sound like something worth trying out. New throw set-ups are good. And Twelve’s all about being random and stupid parlour tricks. That’s what makes him fun to play as!


#16

i’m not flaming…but if your playing 12 you need to be about perfect haha…sorry but that’s just how it is…if you can’t do the air stuff you need to learn everything you can on the ground…but the air is so important to 12…it is so vital.

just watch and rewatch thongboy’s vid.


#17

That’s cool. In any case, it’s not that I can’t do the air stuff against Ken, it’s that I don’t do the air stuff against Ken.


#18

against Ken u need to learn to create a good ground game. NDL’s, standing far MP, crouching MK, standing HK (max range). Just turn into Chun-Li without bar basically. Poking and zoning, just attack during punishment situations


#19

Crouching MK was serving me well in that match-up, as was EX NDL (given EX air dives became a tricky option).

Hey Hogosha, I tried that MK trick on my housemate last night - it works good! My housemate is fairly scrubby and a bit slow to react but as long as you space it well so it whiffs right in front of their nose, it’s a fairly quick and unique throw set-up, especially if you work it into a blockstring somehow. I usually do cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.MK to push myself away when I get too close. I’m going to try mix it up with cr.LK, MK (whiff), throw and see how well that works on better players. So yeah, nice stuff Hogosha!


#20

You seriously just made my night, because I think that’s the first time anyone’s ever told me my strats don’t outright suck in any fighter I’ve played. ^^; As nerdy as that sounds (and, believe me, it IS nerdy)…thanks, man.