Ultimate Assists - Which ones are immune to Hitstun Decay in Juggles?


#1

So I’m a training mode junkie whose UMvC3 team is built around doing as much damage as possible with MODOK in one combo (yeah, I’m a bit of a goofball like that).

In order to do this, I have to figure out which assists are best suited to extend MODOK’s combos. There are a couple qualities I look for when trying out different assists (if it comes out fast enough, leaves the screen quickly, etc) but perhaps the most important quality is finding an assist that is immune to hitstun decay in juggles.

Most assists in Vanilla had this quality, but as we all learned in this SRK article, “in UMVC3 hit stun caused by assists will also be subject to hit stun deterioration during combos”. Affectionately known as the “assist holocaust”, this was a major nerf across the board. However, not ALL assists were hit by this nerf, and it seems that quite a few of them managed to hide from the nerf-nazis.

Being the training mode junkie that I am, I’ve tested them in MODOK juggles and I think I’ve managed to find them all! Since this is something I think everyone else would like to know as well, I’m going to list them for you guys. Now, please keep in mind that while I have tested a lot, I’m still only human, and there are a LOT of assists… so I guess you can also consider this a submission for peer review as well? (SCIENCE! :rofl:) If you guys have anything to contribute, or find any mistakes, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

But first! I should also go over what I think is a common misconception so this will all make more sense:

Hitstun Decay is actually quite a simple game system. Some people think it’s a complicated formula and different moves “cause” different amounts of decay to happen, but this actually isn’t the case. Hitstun Decay is really just based on the amount of time that has passed during your combo. Each move is given a base hitstun value, and as time progresses during combos, those values decrease. That’s it! The only complications are TACs (that return every attack to their base value until you land), the fact that cinematic events don’t contribute to “time elapsed”, and certain attacks are completely immune to hitstun decay and will always do their base value regardless of how much time has elapsed in the combo.

And now an explanation of the terms:

Groundbounce - an unrecoverable state where the opponent is sent to the floor, bounces off of it, and are open to any attack until they land again. Moves that cause groundbounce are always immune to hitstun decay.

Wallbounce - an unrecoverable state where the opponent is sent to the opposite wall, bounces off of it, and are open to any attack until they land. Moves that cause wallbounce are always immune to hitstun decay.

Soft Knockdown - an unrecoverable state where the opponent falls out of the air, open to any attack until they land. Upon landing they can immediately recovery roll. Certain attacks will always cause a Soft Knockdown, so these attacks are also immune to histun decay.

Hard Knockdown - an unrecoverable state where the opponent falls out of the air, open to any attack until they land. Upon landing they CANNOT immediately recovery roll, so they are open to OTG attacks for a limited time. Certain attacks will always cause a Hard Knockdown, so these attacks are also immune to histun decay.


Akuma

Hyakki Gojin

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Amaterasu

NONE

Arthur

Heavenly Slash

  • causes soft knockdown

Firebottle Toss

  • May not be immune when in Gold Armour?

C. Viper

Thunder Knuckle

Burning Kick

  • causes soft knockdown

Captain America

Stars & Stripes

Charging Star

  • causes soft knockdown

Chris

Combination Punch

  • causes hard knockdown

Chun Li

NONE

Dante

NONE

**Deadpool **

Quick Work

  • causes soft knockdown

Katanarama

  • causes groundbounce
  • breaks regular groundbounce rules, and will ALWAYS cause groundbounce!

Doctor Doom

Hidden Missiles

Doctor Strange

Daggars of Denak

Dormammu

Liberation

  • all versions appear to behave exactly the same as when it is used on-point

Felicia

Rolling Buckler

  • causes soft knockdown
  • followup Rolling Slide is NOT immune!

Firebrand

Demon Missile Charge

  • causes soft knockdown

Demon Missile Swoop

**Frank West **

NONE

Ghost Rider

Chain of Rebuttal

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Haggar

Double Lariat

  • causes soft knockdown

Steel Pipe

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes hard knockdown

Hawkeye

Rag Time Shot Kamikaze

  • causes soft knockdown

Hsien Ko

Henkyo Ki

  • causes soft knockdown

Hulk

Gamma Wave

  • causes soft knockdown

Anti-Air Gamma Charge

Iron Fist

Dragon’s Touch

  • causes hard knockdown

Crescent Heel

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Rising Fang

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Iron Man

NONE

Jill

Cartwheel Kick

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Arrow Kick

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Magneto

Hyper Gravitation

  • causes full capture state and then soft knockdown

MODOK

NONE :sad:

Morrigan

Shadow Blade

Nemesis

Clotheline Rocket

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown
  • not sure about Rocket followup… ?

Launcher Slam

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Rocket Launcher

  • causes soft knockdown

Nova

Centurion Rush

  • causes groundbounce
  • breaks regular groundbounce rules and will ALWAYS cause groundbounce in juggles!

Phoenix

NONE

Phoenix Wright

Get 'em, Missile!

  • causes soft knockdown

Rocket Racoon

Pendulum

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Ryu

Shoryuken

Hadouken

  • this blew my mind! :looney:

Sentinel

Sentinel Force Charge

She Hulk

NONE

Spencer

Wire Grapple H. Shot

  • causes capture to hard knockdown

Wire Grapple Slant Shot

  • causes capture to standing state

Armour Piercer

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Shuma Gorath

Mystic Smash

  • causes soft knockdown

Spider-Man

Spider Sting

Storm

NONE

Strider

Ame-no-Murakumo

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Gram

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Vajra

  • causes hard knockdown

Super Skrull

Stone Smite

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Taskmaster

NONE

Thor

Mighty Smash

  • causes groundbounce
  • if groundbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Trish

NONE

Tron Bonne

NONE

Vergil

NONE

Viewtiful Joe

Voomerang

  • causes very little hitstun, but I still think it is immune?

Wesker

Ghost Butterfly

  • causes wallbounce
  • if wallbounce was already used in the combo, it causes soft knockdown

Jaguar Dash

  • causes soft knockdown

Wolverine

Tornado Claw

X-23

NONE

Zero

NONE

Notes:

  • You’ll notice that most of these are wallbounce and groundbounce attacks. Most everything else got hit by the nerf.
  • I was surprised to find that a lot of the DP-type assists, while not causing knockdown, were still immune!
  • A lot of assists get full hits (Strange eye of agamotto, Thor mighty spark, etc) so they appear to be immune, but they really aren’t. In these situations it is a case of the move hitting repeatedly and fast enough that the opponent doesn’t get a chance to get out of hitstun because of the minumum hitstun value (which I think is 4 frames?) I could try listing these too if anyone thinks it’s useful?

…and done! Whew! Again, if you guys notice anything amiss, let me know and I’ll fix it!


This Is All For Killing!: The M.O.D.O.K Combo Thread
UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion. (NEW THREAD NOW AVAILABLE)
Assistance! M.O.D.O.K Assist and Assist Support Thread
#2

I’m not sure if it’s true for assists, but some wallbounce moves don’t knock down. Try comboing Chris’s Magnum > jump Magnum OTG > Magnum
On the second standing one they will just fly to the all and flip out without hitting the ground.

Don’t know why that happens though.

EDIT:
Ryu’s tatsu assist knocks down at least when he’s powered up. Was messing around with him and Haggar late in combos and noticed that.

Also, CAPCOMPANY. Why didja remove the knockdown on Balloon Bomb assist? I loved braindead slide-DHC glitch combo with Deadpool after it hit.

Pretty much the same with Psionic Blaster. That would have been a great way to combo into Ragnarok.

I notice that my posts are a lot longer when they’re talking about MODOK.


#3

You’re right, and I actually believe the 2nd use wallbounces turning into soft-knockdowns thing is a quality specific the assist versions only.

On-point, 2nd use wallbounces are a different story… they can actually be quite different!

2nd-use wallbounces
Chris magnum = 5 frames of hitstun minimum? (appears to be subject to hitstun decay?)
Dormammu “Suffer!” - soft knockdown (immune)
Iron Fist qcf+S = hard knockdown (immune)
MODOK f+H = 29 frames of hitstun (immune)
etc…

I’m also not entirely sure how minimum hitstun works with projectiles either. Physical attacks appear to be [initial hitting frame + x number of hitstop frames + 4 frames of histun] but since projectiles don’t cause hitstop (?) I’m not sure what to make of them… Generally, they seem to have 5 frames of minimum hitstun (maybe there’s one frame of hitstop that I’m not noticing?), but I can’t say for certain.

Ahh! I totally forgot to test with denjin mode Ryu!

Nice catch!! :slight_smile:

Back to the lab! lol


#4

For Chris just so you know, his second punch on the 1,2 will whiff if there is too much hit stun, so you won’t actually get a hard knock down off it if you’re doing extended combos.


#5

Hrmm… Do you think you would you be able to give me an extended combo to try? I’ll be the first person to admit I could’ve made an error (I ain’t perfect!), but I would like to prove it as well by testing if I can… the more verifiable information the better!

Here’s a little combo I just whipped up to try and burn the clock for the combination punch assist… it’s over 1380 frames, but the assist is still behaving as if it’s the first hit in the combo… are you sure it’s not an issue with hitboxes and the 2nd hit is just whiffing when you try it?

[media=youtube]w9PmCqRdviw[/media]


#6

Ok after watching that I think it worked because Ghost Rider was in a soft knock down state already. Running Chris point after so much hit stun that hit only seems to work for me off wall bounces and even whiffs of ground bounces sometimes. It appears to work for wall bounces and hard knock down no matter what, but I’ll test it as an assist off ground bounces and anything else to see if as an assist it’s better than his point 1,2 punch.


#7

Good stuff as always


#8

Correction! Ghost Rider was NOT in a pure knockdown state when he got hit by the combination punch. If I had waited an extra 18 frames before calling Chris, Ghost Rider would’ve air recovered before hitting the ground.

Even if he was, why would that even matter?

Wait a minute*… “point”?*

On-point as opposed to as-an-assist CAN BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! This list is about assists ONLY. On-point is a completely different story!

I’ll give MODOK as an example, with his balloon bomb special move:

MODOK Balloon Bomb on point

  • causes a spinning soft knockdown
  • the opponent can NEVER air recover after getting hit by it!
  • is immune to hitstun decay
  • cannot hit opponents OTG

***MODOK ******Balloon Bomb ***as an assist

  • it has very little base hitstun
  • the opponent will pretty much ALWAYS air recover after getting hit by it!
  • is NOT immune to hitstun decay
  • can hit opponents OTG!

#9

Now this finally explains why Chris’ :h: Boulder Punch acts so inconsistently. This topic is very helpful.


#10

Iron Fist’s Rising Fang:

  • Comes out reeaaally quick
  • Doesn’t add to hit stun deterioration much being only one hit
  • Does 130,000 raw
  • The actual bounce is very close to the wall, ie. it doesn’t bounce them off the wall back towards midscreen very far at all
  • It bounces them very high up so you get ample time to re-adjust yourself, wave dash up or set something up before continuing the combo
  • Makes combos which start in one corner carry all the way to the other

I’m a big fan…


#11

well fuck, this has the same purpose as the thread I made, but yours looks better
whatever


#12

Your MODOK is beautiful and I am all sorts of terrified.

I’ve also been getting into Chris’s combination punch lately for hard knock downs.


#13

All the exclamation points make me feel like you’re yelling at me lol you’re right though. I never use that assist, but I was assuming the move would be the same on assist as it is point. I always use gun fire assist because it has properties like Ironman and Dooms beam assist. Good vid though.


Calgary Thread 2011
#14

About Chris’s Combination Punch :h::

In Vanilla, it had a set amount of hitstun for the first hit. No matter how late it was in a combo, the two hits always linked.
In Ultimate, they made the hitstun on the first punch scale, so late in combos, they flip out. Apparently this hasn’t changed for the assists.


#15

I heard even Wesker’s wallbounce assist is good,…they weren’t kidding.


#16

May be worth noting that Deadpool’s Quick Work causes spinning knockdown.

Or at least I assume it still does.


#17

I believe Felicia’s cat spike causes a ground bounce.


#18

OTG capable assists

Spoiler

Arthur - Y (Fire Bottle) - Delayed startup
C. Viper - B (Seismo) -
Chris - Y (Land Mine) - Delayed startup, but it stays out for a long time
Deadpool - B (Katanarama) - Causes a ground bounce, also resets ground bounce rule
Doom - B (Hidden MIssiles) -
Felicia - B (Sand Splash) -
Firebrand - A - Kind of slow
Ghost Rider - B, Y -
Hawkeye - B, Y - Scatter Shot OTGs on the way back down
Hulk - A (Gamma Wave) -
Iron Fist - B - Seems to cause the opponent to recover immediately. Does the move on point cause a ground bounce?
Iron Man - Y (Smart Bomb) -
Phoenix Wright - Y (Get 'em, Missile!) - At least I think it does. It’s reaaly slow though. Hits low
Sentinel - B (Rocket Punch) -
She Hulk - A (Torpedo) - Somewhat slow
Shuma Gorath - A (Mystic Ray) - Slow
Wesker - B (Samurai Edge) - Hits low
X23 - B (Ankle Slice) - Hits low
Storm - B (Typhoon) - Has long startup, but active for a while
Taskmaster - Y (Vertical Arrows) - OTGs on the way back down
Viewtiful Joe - Y (Shocking Pink) - Delayed, explosion can hurt either team

Assists that cause a ground bounce

Spoiler

Akuma - Y - Causes a ground bounce on an aerial opponent. I think it can OTG, but it’s so slow that it’s not very practical for that purpose (as far as I know)
Deadpool - B (Katanarama) - Hits OTG, resets ground bounce limit (also uses it, but you can save the bounce by doing an attack with your point character at the same time)
Felicia - Y (Cat Spike) -
Haggar - B (THE PIPE) - Also causes a hard knockdown, for very easy confirms/extensions. If the ground bounce has already been used in a combo, it will just cause the hard knockdown.
Jill - A -
Nemesis - B -
Nova - B - Ignores the 1 ground bounce per combo rule, but does not reset the limit.
Strider Hiryu - A -
Thor - B - No longer causes a hard knockdown if the ground bounce has been used up

Assists that cause a wall bounce

Spoiler

Ghost Rider - A -
Iron Fist - Y -
Jill - B (Arrow Kick) - No longer causes a hard knockdown afterwards
Nemesis - A (Clothesline Rocket) - The clothesline part of the move causes the bound, the rocket part does not. However it’s easy to make the rocket miss, and it will do so on its own most of the time anyway
Nova - Y -
Phoenix Wright - B - Only in Turnabout Mode. It’s also invincible for the most part.
Rocket Raccoon - Y (Pendulum/Log Trap) -
Spencer - Y -
Strider Hiryu - B (Gram) -
Super Skrull - A (Stone Smite) -
Wesker - A (Ghost Butterfly) -

Knockdowns

Spoiler

Arthur - A (Heavenly Slash) - Appears to have some invincibility, didn’t really test it out though.
Nemesis - Y (Rocket) -
Strider Hiryu - Y (Vajra) - Hard knockdown on aerial opponent, nothing on grounded
Wesker - Y (Jaguar Dash? Panther Dash? Tiger Run? something like that) - Spinning knockdown, doesn’t appear to be affected by HSD
Deadpool - A (Quickwork) - Spinning knockdown, unaffected by HSD
Shuma Gorath - Y -
Spencer - A - Hard knockdown, but short time until recovery
Chris - A (Combination Punch) - The 2nd hit causes a hard knockdown, but the opponent can recover after the first hit
Haggar - A (Lariat) - No more hard knockdown, hooray! Also the invincibility seems nerfed, I’m unsure of the specifics though.
C. Viper -Y (Burn Kick) -

Might be wrong about some of them, but I’m willing to bet this container of applesauce in front of me that it’s all correct.


#19

Vergil’s Judgment Cut and Rapid Slash inflict soft knockdown so they qualify.


#20

Unfortunately both of those assist are affected by hitstun decay.