Ultimate Troll vs. America 3, America's Game? Hmmm

TOO LONG JIIIIIINNN >>>> Ultimate Troll vs. America 3, America's Game? Hmmm

This is interesting.

Everyone knows at this point that I like seeing some Japanese players and it influences the character choices I play a bit. I’m free as the wind compared to them or even most Americans at this point but I have no problem being honest with that. I really like the game a lot regardless and it forces minimizing mistakes and bad situations like the old games so it’s fun to get back into that again.

I’ve been guilty of complaining about the cheap stuff and what not and how I wish Zero didn’t kill in one combo by himself…but that’s the cheap stuff gotta learn to deal. However I always have liked Morrigan + Missiles because it shows that the game has been geared more towards zoning also and not just running in with Wolverine. Other people hate on it but it’s either that or invincible berserker slash.

After seeing Kusoru win Final Round it’s obvious the Japanese prefer to squeeze every bit of juice out of the lemon and learn to optimize what they like to play regardless of tier. They don’t get huge money prizes for winning tourneys there and arcades are still abundant compared to America (you win like a PS2 and a game for winning freaking SBO) so there’s more incentive to pick “lesser” characters in games. You have more time to play against stronger competition to work around the issues of said characters.

Of course there’s the exception of the fact that there is no arcade cabinet for the game so some of the players like GX/Kuuronn have to travel upwards of 5 hours driving time to meet in a central place to play what is basically a poverty game in Japan (and supposedly America’s game). Just for a shot to one day possibly make a little bit of cash when they come here. Maybe.

Now what’s really interesting is that I hear all this stuff about “Marvel is America’s game” but honestly I feel like America gave that up as soon as MVC3 came out. Sanford denounced the game very quickly during Vanilla and although he did play up until a little bit after Evo it was obvious he just did not care. Justin stayed in because he plays everything but there’s several Marvel 2 big heads that to this day either don’t play the game period or play it but more or less troll the game for it’s mechanics in comparison to Marvel 2. This is especially apparent in the east coast streams where players I won’t mention seem to have more fun trolling about how OP Morrigan + Missiles and Dark Wesker is than actually commentating the match.

Justin Wong brought up a really good point. You can listen below.

http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=Mqz8IGCBXGo&feature=relmfu#t=2m13s

This is the main main reason why I prefer Marvel 3 over Marvel 2 despite the craziness. I wanted to learn Strider Doom in Marvel 2 because that was the only viable team set up that looked interesting to play. I didn’t care about the cape wearers or Cable, their character designs just don’t interest me and Doom I only liked because he was cool with the ninja. Part of the reason why I made sure I picked up Doom in Marvel 3. I knew he was probably going to support whoever I ended up liking on point.

I heard Strider/Doom took so much work to utilize in an already hard to play game that devolved to really 4 characters at the highest level so I pretty much opted out and stuck with 3S. Ibuki was far from the best character in the game and was pretty technical but still a far cry from studying under a waterfall for years with Strider/Doom only to probably get curb stomped out by Mags and Sent any way. She could fair her own against the higher tiers with less work than Strider/Doom would have in MVC2.

When MVC3 came out I knew I had to get in because I wanted to get back into an Anime/Marvel style game and learn to react to things at a ridiculously fast speed again. SFIV was getting really boring being a really dumbed down version of the basic footsies applied in Super Turbo that was already done to death years and years ago. Solid game but…too limited in options and ways to oppress your opponent despite the tier list compared to the old games for me. Of course MVC3 ended up being this game where hit confirms seemed really easy, XF could kill your whole team from like the start of the round and they put in characters like Wesker that could shoot a gun at the speed of a real life gun, had multiple screen clearing teleports and a 1 frame command grab. ** To someone coming from SF Wesker is like Akuma, Zangief and Fei Long in the same character. Luckily it’s Marvel so that’s not that terrible.**

All of that stuff was enough to get people really riled up about the game and just call it a scrub game and has nothing fundamental to it. ** Though the more I watched tourneys of the game…I noticed the most fundamental players (people who had some of the best spacing in SF/Marvel games like PR Rog, ComboFiend, Fanatiq, Ricky Ortiz and Wong) still were winning the most consistently.** The game had a lot of cheap shit but all of those players came from playing games with cheap and really oppressive shit so they have no problem dealing with a game where all of that stuff is just easier access.

It seemed like America’s game just a lil bit for once until last weekend when this guy Kusoru comes with a team that surely wasn’t going to do much against the likes of high tier ass US teams like Zero/Vergil/Dante, Zero/Vergil/Hawkeye, Spencer/Wolverine or Dante/Felicia and even slightly less high tier but completely oppressive stuff like Morrigan/Missiles/Brand. Kusoru’s team had characters that in theory and even really practically B to A tier at best.

Of course in MVC2 that would mean you’re fucked but in MVC3 everyone is capable of doing high damage and like Super Turbo…all of the characters are made very uniquely even if they are similar in main gameplan where they all have their own niche and ways to synergize in a team. This team of course of Joe/Frank/Coon went on to win a prestigious 15 year event with a lot of Marvel history with characters that basically don’t exist in America minus Frank. A tournament where I remember Sanford literally sweating buckets trying and successfully IIRC defeating Justin Wong in the grand finals of MVC2 back in 2006 or 7. I had never seen anyone sweat like that playing a video game until that day and it literally showed the blood and sweat that went into MVC2 in the US. It was hot in the room but you don’t sweat like that unless you are working your ass off on top of that.

If this really is America’s game…why are tournament players at the tournament commentating on stream talking more about how stupid the mechanics are than making sure Joe/Frank/Coon doesn’t take a 400 man event in a 15 year prestigious tourney without going into losers? There must be very few people that are really trying to own this game in the US if that’s the case. It sounds a lot more like people are just playing it on the side than really caring about winning. It can’t be America’s game if all I usually remember is just excuses for how stupid the game is. Obviously we need to look into all characters of the tier list. It’s definitely ideal to protect yourself in this game with what is the strongest but you can’t protect yourself from what you don’t know about (LOG TRAP).

I talked with one of my friends who I played the game with and he figured that I should just play a cheaper team with characters that I like and that I found and switched to. Obviously Kusoru proved you don’t need top tiers to win but the thing about my new team is that it goes along the lines of you need a character that can zone and rush to be consistent.

The team I have now is basically the original team I wanted to play except with Strider instead of Dante. Can’t complain there. In the end though it seemed like it was more Kusoru’s incredible ability to defend himself against crazy mix ups and block correctly in situations that I’ve seen very few other players block correctly in. Not to mention his team is built around a character that can rush you down but lame you out at the same time and 2 characters with really small hit boxes. Rocket Raccoon only has 750k health but people had to hit him 4 or 5 times before he died. Slippery rodent.

Lastly…it definitely seems the best way to play this game at least for now is to make a team that can switch between offense and defense on the fly regardless of the tiers. Which seems very much in line with the way Marvel 2 was. Magneto was offensive but he could lame. Storm tended to be more defensive but she could rush etc. Just make sure synergy is solid and make sure you have an awareness of the mix ups and situations the game presents. Also…make sure you don’t lose your first character because that’s pretty much how Kusoru stayed in the game. Frank or Coon would usually end up dying before Joe did because Joe seemed that difficult to hit with a 10 point durable log trap assist.

EXTRA BONUS: I can see why Kusoru has no problem with the cheap stuff in this game when he hypes up this game every other time he wins a match.



http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=14IST17bpd4#t=8m00s <<<< Actually this is all you really need to see.

[LEFT]WFT is this shit?![/LEFT]
[LEFT]onli play with infiniti combos and unlockables this game sucks[/LEFT]

TL;DR = America really needs to step up and actually try to own this game. America seems like it’s doing more of a job trolling the game than really trying to win at it and learn all of what the characters are capable of. I guess it’s karma that we ended up getting trolled by a guy drinking soy sauce after winning matches. He tried to stay salty along with us. The irony.

It seems like America only really cares about owning SFIV and SFxMoneyx25G’s but still wants to go out of their way to call Marvel their game. The Japanese know this is a game where they can use who they like and build teams and do well so they’re gonna come and force us to learn matchups. They’re going to adapt to Zero’s S tierness, Dark Wesker’s Dark Weskerness, the TAC mechanics, Dark Freenix (level 3 Frank don’t care) the easy mode hit confirm, the Wolverine/Vergil left/rights with/without assists (that he blocked like a champ) and so on.

We’ve gotta do it like the old school days and make science out of the crazyness rather than brush it off and just pick characters who will most like be end game shit and hope that works. Apparently V.Joe and Log is shutting out a few things here and there and staying in winners all through a major with some of the most relevant of west and east America because of this.

I feel like this article really explains why MVC2 is so different from MVC3, it also explains why the japanese gods of shitty games give a fuck about MVC3.

They basically treat it like a B-rated Movie.

Great read.

I think thats why people like Justin, Noel and Combofiend are so dominate (or at least consistent) and people like Remix and Sanford are being held back in the game.

When Justin saw Sentinel in MVC3, he was like “Yo this game is gonna be so ass because of this character. So easy to play yet so good. Imma find some shit to beat him.” And lo and behold, he created one of the most dominating and most used duos since Sentinel/Capcom in MVC2 (Wolverine/Akuma) just so he can destroy every single Sentinel player alive. Shit, I know he thinks the game is ass, but he put in work to still be dominate.

Remix, on the other hand, says that this game is ass, doesn’t practice or learn any strategies and he wonders why he is getting his ass tossed up.

Justin and Remix are remarkable gamers, but their drives are on total different spectrums.

In that article explains why TVC:UAS edition had little involvement with the japanese. And why there was so much involvement with TVC:Jap edition, because that game is broken as fuck.

Why are we so concerned about WHY people play a game? All that matters is if they win or not. This ‘objectively’ good nonsense is getting tired. I’m sure as hell not taking cues on quality gaming from a blog excited about MMORPGs and rehashed JRPGs

I think the interesting thing about this whole debacle is that it demonstrates where the metagame of Marvel is heading: towards advanced neutral control, away from OHKOs. Unfortunately, we still have Zero who can do both but…

The American philosophy on this game, especially with Vanilla, was “getingetingetingetin I GOT IN YOU’RE DEAD.” Since the game has so much crazy mobility and other broken shit, it was a totally valid way to play. Ultimate’s changes towards making keepaway and zoning more viable have already started making players shift their attitude.

Kusoru’s team subverted this style in a number of ways. First, Log Trap works as an awesome interrupt assist for combos, since it covers such a weird area. Second, two of his three characters are midgets and it’s much easier to drop combos on them. When he was playing, you could tell he was always working to keep control of the neutral game, sometimes to the detriment of his combos. Was his style a one-trick pony? Sure, once you know to listen for the assist call. But it’s not a trick that the American playstyle was using, and it works well against a lot of characters.

For all the shit that this game gets, I’m still committed to it. I love the strategy of team composition. I love the sheer diversity of the cast. I love that most of them are actually usable and competitive. If it’s kusoge, then kusoge forever, baby.

Not enough people are dissecting the game. Kusoru’s use of Six Cannon and Mach Speed showed knew those were crazy invincible on start up.

“Everyone in Japan knows Six Cannon beats Gimlet”

Surprised no one on commentary caught onto the hard tag he used to avoid a Gimlet.

Seems liked they noticed hard tagging to avoid Gimlet in other sets that Kusoru didn’t play.

Posts like these remind me that there is more to the game than that “Hurr Durr Zero/Viper/Wesker/Strider iz best 'coz they get in you face Derp” stuff.:slight_smile:
THIS is what people need to be trying. The meta can move two ways. We can find the most broken shit possible and cheese it out like Marvel 2, or we can make unique teams that allow people to learn match-ups for the ENTIRE cast. V. Joe+Log might not have been very good, but it proved a point. A really good player could just walk in and win by using two nearly unheard of characters and a strategic character. (Frank needs a set-up to work, not two batteries while he is used as an anchor at level 1. Lookin’ at you, Noel Brown.) If we actually look at match-ups for the whole cast, not just focus on tier extremes and skim over the rest, we might actually find counters to broken shit. Would’ve helped back in Vanilla when Sent and Jean just needed a through examination, not an atomic nerf bomb. Now we have Zero and Viper, who actually profited off this current pattern. If the community had actually looked closely in Vanilla, we wouldn’t be dealing with those two quite as badly right now. Two things to take away, if nothing else:
[]Try out the entire cast. I doubt the B-tier really is as large as everyone is saying it is. You know who came out of there? Morrigan, Joe, and RR. The C-tier could use a run-through too.
]If you find broken crap out of nowhere, USE IT! Here’s an example: Firebrand can OCV an entire team garunteed with one assist and some skill. Why isn’t he lumped with Zero and Viper unanimously? Because nobody uses the “unknown” tech that is not at all hidden or secret. Unused is the better word.
I for one, as someone who has been trying to learn RR for about a month and already mains Frank, I cheered a little bit at Kusoru’s victory.:clapdos:

Interesting read. This ISNT Americas game though. MvC2 was Americas game, MvC3 shares the same name as MvC2 but that is about as far as the comparisons go. MvC3 doesnt automatically default to Americas game, imo you still need to earn that from game to game.

I think we just need to stop worrying about what country is the best at this game and just play it. I have always found these territorial things pretty dumb. Sure it can bring some fun and hype, but when people start taking it really seriously is when it just gets stupid. At the end of the day, we are all still playing video games which should be meant for a hobby and fun.

I thought Kusoru’s victory was great… it should give this game some life.

Yeah I just wanted to see the friendly rivalry like in 3S and now SFIV for a game like Marvel. Who wants a game where it’s just a civil war with the US? It’s definitely a lot of just dismissing a game that is different but has a similar name but still wanting to have ownership of the title. Every Marvel game had big differences from one another.

There’s all this talk about owning MVC2 but to me I feel it was more just really the US fighting among the US in a game that Japan didn’t have as much care for. Anybody who really likes fighting games competitively wants to fight the Japanese and any other country in every game and that’s what Team Final Roundbats brought.

Of course a lot of the old Marvel salt comes up when people lose in Marvel and have to take a bunch of money matches to a guy who’s just looking to have some fun after his tournament win. At least let the guy come back to another major before running money matches on him. There was probably a lot of people that wanted to congratulate him but I’m sure he just got bumrushed first by the salty MM peepz and just had enough.

Everybody wanting money matches just shows they woke up waaayyyy too late.

This largely goes back to something I said in another thread…

People care too much about tier whoring and not enough about playing, gather information, and practicing. (And yes, I’m aware that my teams make it appear that I’m tier whoring, but I actually picked almost all of the characters I play before even Vanilla was released)

And when tier whoring fails, people will kick scream and cry endlessly instead of using their brain to get around a problem. Though… that’s not just in fighting games imo. My generation of “reality”-show loving babies in general seem to be filled with whiny, bratty people. Or maybe I just think that way because I’m a scrooge who barely watches TV.

Anywho, it still seems to me that people have gotten too caught up in their own teams, tier whoring, and complaining when it doesn’t work rather than hitting the lab to learn the basics of ALL characters and brainstorming/testing counterplay for more than just the characters that they play or are familiar with.

Like I mentioned in my second comment above, I picked almost everyone I currently play before either game was released. I don’t play any Ultimate character that I didn’t immediately decide to play when they were announced, and the only two characters I picked up from post-release experience in the tutorial mode are Spencer and Doom. Obviously, I’m very picky about my characters and only play characters I enjoy playing. Despite that fact, it hasn’t kept me from tinkering around with other characters to at least get a basic knowledge of their capabilities as well. Prime example of FR being Coon’s log trap.

I saw that nonsense all of one time while I was messing around with him and experimenting with his hitbox and immediately recognized the level of potential fuckery that could ensue as a result of it. After that I didn’t flee to the forums to bitch about it, I decided to look over my characters and try to figure out a few ways to deal with it.

The problems at hand aren’t anything unique to Ultimate even. Look at when Marvel 3 was released and everyone “discovered” Sentinel. Until he was patched, you could bet your butt that almost every rock you turned over would have someone underneath it griping about Sentinel. Instead of that, I decided to try to develop a way to make sure that Sentinel died promptly after being touched once. Sentinel’s extremely large health pool, instead of making me whine, taught me how to kill any character with Akuma. I actually find it rather unfortunate that Capcom decided to do a little hand-holding and nerfed him. Even if 1.3 mil was too much, I still feel like Sentinel is a 1 mil -1.1 mil character.

But I said all that to essentially say this… practice, folks.

I mean ACTUALLY practice. Don’t just sit and watch film or mimic combos/teams without taking the time to really learn what you’re doing. And part of that learning process is learning characters regardless of whether or not you intend to actually play them.

And if you absolutely MUST waste time complaining about everything, at the very LEAST you could complain while you’re sitting in training mode figuring out whatever you need to know to potentially get around or stop whatever it may be.

I like to add that I did warn everyone that having an “official” SRK tier list was a dumb idea and would do more harm than good for the metagame…

Japan = play what characters you like and build a team that works
America = play three characters you think are broken without giving a fuck about synergy

It’s still up to the people to decide who they want to play as. If you’re insinuating the SRK tier list had something to do with what happened over the weekend…I’m not sure you understand fighting games very well.

Viewtiful Joe/Frank/Coon is just a lower tier version of what was already working but more oppressive (Morrigan/Missiles). Pretty easy to put that together. It’s just Kusoru is a Japanese Chris G rainman type player and uses who he likes. He is simply one of the IT players in Japan and that’s going to take you far as long as your team is synergized well just like with Chris G’s randomly effective teams over Vanilla into Ultimate.

The list is just for the sake of people having something to go on as far as what the potential of each character is. Zero was easily the most destructive thing at the tournament and killed down entire teams much more efficiently than any character there. The character highest up on the tier list did the fastest crumbling of entire teams over any other character. V.Joe did work and won a major but…it’s still V.Joe and he’s just never going to amount to the same level of success in the long run as a team built around Zero will. That’s just plain obvious. Who knows…maybe V.Joe might even end up countering Zero but he sure won’t be a better, more team dominating character than him.

Nobody in the US was going to study Joe or Coon whether the tier list was made or not. It’s just there as a reference and anyone who understands fighting games knows that this game allows almost any character to be a factor.

The only thing Joe/Frank/Coon did was reassure that the game is going towards a game where characters without projectile and lame options are going to struggle. That’s about it. Players of more melee type characters will have to win within 10 seconds or lose for 40 seconds.

A tier list on a message forum had nothing to do with what happened at Final Round. What happened at Final Round had to do with people not adapting to something different and that would have happened with or without some posts on a message forum.

The real real issue is that there’s so many threats in this game that people seem to be getting overwhelmed and not really having that drive to overcome said issues. First it’s Dark Sentinel, then Dark Phoenix, then Dark Wesker, then Morrigan + Missiles, now Joe/Coon. The game is just coming to the point where everywhere people turn they have to deal with some boss ass shit that is really powerful and it makes it really easy for people to come up with excuses. That’s just the way old games were. Everything ended up becoming a big threat until the biggest threats came out on top.

You don’t have to like the tier list but please don’t try to allude to the idea that the tier list had something to do with what happened at 400 man major. With any tourney the best man wins regardless of what characters/team they use. That doesn’t mean the tiers aren’t there though. Tiers don’t keep the best man from winning and they don’t keep him from winning with the characters he likes. It’s just a matter of if Kusoru’s team is strong enough to allow him to be the best man consistently for more major US tournaments.

I’ve played low and mid tier characters though most of my fighting game career but the most important part of winning with lower characters is understanding that they are lower.

I understand what you’re getting at but I feel you’re attacking points no one has made. I’ve never seen anyone complain about their failure to win a matchup because they picked top tier and didn’t learn the game. And can we save the whole ‘my generation sucks’ thing. Every generation has shared similar problems. No generation has worked harder than the other. Do not confuse the ease of publishing rants to the portion of people actually complaining.

I like the add that would imply that people are stupid for not having the ability to think for themselves. Tier do not represent the future, but only the present. Things could change, people can be wrong, and people can adapt. A dude from japan made their own tier, and they don’t fucking tier whore Zero/Phoenix/Morrigan/all day. Japan made their own character work by exploring mechanics in the game. They didn’t care or wait for people to deem their character shit tier.

By this logic, those magazine that the Japanese do to their SFIV is harmful for their commnity. That is frankly pathetic…

I mean I don’t care if SRK thinks Shuma is D tier for itself, I am still going to explore the character. I still found plenty of shit that is relatively underdeveloped about him.

I tried morrigan doom but I didn’t like it so I went back to Joe/Shuma and I am having fun