Ultra Matchup Changes

guy

#1

Well I think we should have an area to discuss the difference in matchups now that Ultra dropped and Guy is more solid now. I think Delayed Wake Up, his St. HK and his Target Combo buffs help him against grapplers and his big damage combos hurt even more and give better options on enders with the TC buff. Also FINALLY HITTING KEN WITH TC FEELS SO GOOD… Anyways… Discuss!


#2

Okay so Cr. Fierce > TC works pretty much max range on t. hawk, prolly zangief too. I think Ken is a problem. His walk speed increase just allows him to invade Guy’s space without playing too many footsies and as soon as you’re blocking you gotta watch for that ridiculous kara grab or counter hit setups… I think Ken is pretty good against guy tbh he just has a lot of tools that harass guy. All though I am a bit bad against Ken in terms of style in general he clearly has an advantage


#3

Rejoice Honda vs Guy is 5-5 in my honest opinion


#4

whaaaat why is that? I think its 6-4 until you open him up and get a life lead then maybe 5-5 lol but when he gets the lead he can really sit on that sucker


#5

St.hk makes him honest, our footsies are better. His headbutts are useless. I also just beat the #1 Honda who is a very good Honda 3-0.


#6

Why do you think Ken has an advantage? Are you having trouble defending against his mixups?

One thing that can get Guy absolutely killed in this matchup is crouch tech spam. Good Kens will stagger -> kara grab as you whiff cr LK, or they will tech trap fierce DP and FADC the second hit of the DP (FADC forward on second hit of DP is now nerfed in Ultra, Ken is left on -7). Late teching is crucial in this matchup. Ken has to make a lot of good reads to be any real threat to Guy, especially because he has trouble getting past Guy’s cr MP.

Ken’s sweep is even more unsafe than before, -9 on guard I believe?

I heard Ken’s cr MK was supposed to be buffed, but I haven’t heard any more word on that so maybe it hasn’t been touched. Either way, with Guy’s improved walk speed, this move is even easier to whiff punish now.

Also, Ken can’t air tatsu-copter out of the corner anymore, so that makes Guy the more dangerous fighter on the offense. My favorite strategy against Ken is playing defensively, you either wait until he pokes out something stupid against your cr MP xx EX Hozanto buffers, or you surprise him with a walk forward, or far MP xx Run-stop -> forward throw. He will be put into the corner, and you on the offense.


#7

Yea Gief and Honda are way more manageable now with the St.HK buff. Am still having some trouble with the hawk matchup though , perhaps its just the online environment. Also need to come up with some new setups for chun , she seems a bit harder now with dwu.


#8

Is this because of elbow drop and l/EX BSK or nerfs?

A fair distance before a max range cr.mk from Ken Guy cannot punish with mk.BSK. To me it does does feel a longer distance than in AE. I haven’t tested it in training yet, but I see it being the same problem as the cr.mk -> fireball scenario I brought up about Ryu in AE. It’s disappointing to me that mk.BSK moves you forward and has low invincibility and still cannot hit low profile normals at their max range.

This is a problem because even though cr.mk -> fireball is not a true block string from Ken (there’s 1 frame advantage in Guy’s favour), if you can’t reach the cr.mk with a m.BSK punish you won’t reach the fireball either. You’ll both just whiff and recover on exactly the same frame (possibly - I never figured out would the “+19” recovery frames on Guy’s BSK refer to.) and closer. And when you throw the dice on options at that range on a ‘quick-draw’ with Ken you tend to lose.

Unlike a blocked cr.mk from Guy which is +/-0 there is no impression of you taking offence on a double whiff. Psychologically, it doesn’t feel risky for them to hit a button.

Using standing Far MK as opposed to m.BSK has to be spaced and timed specifically because of the way the hurt box morphs through the move. If you hit it to early from optimal spacing, you will get counter hit due to your poking legs hurtbox being low and in front of you. Hit it too late and obviously you can get punished on the recovery by Tatsu.


#9

Well let’s put it this way, his headbutts always did chip or solid damage from AAing, I really don’t need to jump on him when he has charge, so I’ll only jump when he loses charge. LP Headbutt is the only one Guy can’t punish on block, MP and HP I can use meter or Runslide for HP, if he does this from a good distance and I react fast enough I can d LK tatsu, Honda can try and get me off him with EX but we can punish that with St.MP, if its up close you can do TC, maybe Bushin Chain depending on if you stand or low block it, from a distance if you stand block, TC, if you low block st.mp. St.HK just kills his jumps in and kills his stop sign if done at the right time. That leaves honda really with hands and command grab.


#10

I see Rolentos pressing LK+Delta Attack (3 punches back jump), I’m guessing as some kind of OS tech?

Either way, Guy’s cr LP -> cr LP + slide OS will hit and knock down wake up Delta Attack. cr HP and far HK can also hit him out of the jump.


#11

[quote=“Silhouette;8882349”

Why do you think Ken has an advantage? Are you having trouble defending against his mixups?

One thing that can get Guy absolutely killed in this matchup is crouch tech spam. Good Kens will stagger -> kara grab as you whiff cr LK, or they will tech trap fierce DP and FADC the second hit of the DP (FADC forward on second hit of DP is now nerfed in Ultra, Ken is left on -7). Late teching is crucial in this matchup. Ken has to make a lot of good reads to be any real threat to Guy, especially because he has trouble getting past Guy’s cr MP.

Ken’s sweep is even more unsafe than before, -9 on guard I believe?

I heard Ken’s cr MK was supposed to be buffed, but I haven’t heard any more word on that so maybe it hasn’t been touched. Either way, with Guy’s improved walk speed, this move is even easier to whiff punish now.

Also, Ken can’t air tatsu-copter out of the corner anymore, so that makes Guy the more dangerous fighter on the offense. My favorite strategy against Ken is playing defensively, you either wait until he pokes out something stupid against your cr MP xx EX Hozanto buffers, or you surprise him with a walk forward, or far MP xx Run-stop -> forward throw. He will be put into the corner, and you on the offense.[/quote]

I didn’t use cr.mp buffer but even then the sheer speed of his attacks and randomness make it difficult to react to and thats a punish that needs meter anyway. I just find it hard to MAKE him block and calm down, he always seems to be pressing buttons and if f.mk is blocked then he just mounted an offense instantly


#12

Also wtf is up with ABEL. He has been absolutely DESTROYING me and the players weren’t even that good, maybe I was having an off day, but I was completely lost in this match up. What can you do against an abel that just anti-airs and waits for you to get close and cr.lk until they can do step kick into shenanigans? I tried blowing him up with counter hit setups but it didnt work, perhaps they were too tight… either way once abel was in he was IN that ass and I was helpless.
tl;dr I need serious help against abel
OH and Chun Li TOO! she is absolutely ridiculous idk what happened to her but shes a beast. DWU i think plays a part but something about the way chun players are playing is different now and i need to research her changes and such


#13

Guy is more than capable of defending against Ken. You dont have to buffer ex hozanto, you can instead use Run slide, the main point here is throw cr MP, so that you stuff his approach. Even if he does manage to step kick in, he still has to take guesses, and at least its not close quarters Gief you’re dealing with.

Dont forcefully make Ken go on the defensive, such opportunities naturally come as long as you keep poking him back.

Abel and Chun I dont have much to say as I too struggle with them, I think they are much harder than Ken, simply because one has good defensive pokes and the other has grapples.


#14

apparently there was a setup where you could whiff ex izuna on run slide safe jump setup instead of going for fierce on the way down against abel and it would make his EX reversals whiff. This is NO LONGER the case if it was true. Still working on some sort of oki against abel thats somewhat safe.does NOT beat EX tornado throw or ultra so watchout. Also trades with super lol… knocks him right out of it so far off of runslide instead of safe jump i back dash and lp hozanto, it beats his tornado throws and you can see if he is going to DWU before starting the hozanto but you have to be able to react in time when you buffer hozanto, if not id just jump over him or try to poke my way back in for DWU
EDIT : the super trade depends on which super he uses… lp super beats hozanto, mp super loses outright i think hp trades


#15

uncrouchable bushin flip seems the way to go… off of any bushin flip you catch them with if you have meter you get another one for freeeee


#16

I think the matchup with Ken against me is more about the way I play and less about the actual matchup. Just me as a player I don’t cope well with him at the moment lol, i just feel like if hes random as hell its hard to defend against him, im not denying guy has the tools, I just feel like ken doesnt have to work nearly as hard for the rewards of the matchup


#17

This is usually the conundrum with Guy matches. You opponent will typically bottle neck the match up into spamming a singular move or block string that they haven’t seen Guy players in general contend with. This is due to the fact Guy typically has only 1 move to counter each critical attack or poke of his opponent. Moreover, said counter might not even be a dominant one - as in, you’re more likely to miss time or space the counter than you are likely to counter what comes.

Because of that you get plays like Hondas spamming head butts, or Kens using step kick -> kara throw or M Bison (Dictator) use cr.:lk: -> Scissor Kick. And you can lose consistently due to not being away of which one move gets you out of that situation.

[hr]

Abel is an an unstable match up. Bop him with Run->slide or a throw and you’re harassing him almost completely free. If he gets a KD on you, he’s doing the same with is Marsaille(sp?) Roll mix up. There’s no real hint as to which level of roll he is doing to note whether he’s crossing you up or not, but the wisest thing to do is to assume he’s going to cross you up and dash forwards (this will be backwards once he’s crossed you up) if he went for a step kick or cr.:lk: he’ll hit you while airborne in a back dash. It’s a little damage, but it at least resets the 50/50 without you being KD’d. If he went for a grab you can :mk: BSK, Ex.HZO or slight walk forward TC -> slide. I wouldn’t wake up Ex.BSK him if he rolls unless it’s absolutely necessary. While the only thing he can do on your wake up that sensible against your Ex.BSK is block (His Sky Fall is not invincible at all) he can block your dash as well. The only difference being you’ll come out of your dash quicker than the Ex.BSK he expected and you wouldn’t have used the bar either.

Chun-Li? If she’s not poking you from full range, all her crouching lights, that overhead flip kick, her fireball and her Ultra 2 are stuffed by :mk:.BSK (remember what I said earlier about one move counters?) This on move won’t save the match up for you but a lot of what Chun-li’s players poke you with are not true block strings and not many Chun-Li players are save enough to use cr.:lp. to stop your :mk:.BSK. The biggest annoyance is FA-backdash from Chun-Li. You have no move that can punish a Chun-Li Focus Attack backdash, even if you know it’s coming. She can block->runslide, which by nature means she can buffer a cr.:lp: to hit you if you instead went for run-stop or run-overhead. Ex.HZO won’t reach that far and she’ll be in crouch block before any Bushin Flip reaches her. Don’t jump a Chun-Li backdash either. It won’t work. Just… don’t. Trust me.
You have to get a sense of when she’ll focus attack and punish the focus before the backdash (Ex.HZO). Get her to that damn corner and ruin her when she has nowhere to go. Hell, even if you’re the one in the corner, it’s actually still to your advantage IMO. You want to get in close to Chun: too close for her liking. One tick back-throw or BCC Throw and you’re going H.A.M. I don’t know if you’re using U2 in this match up, but I would. Chun throws out too many pokes and kicks and has a tendency to use U2 too much not to give Ultra W or Ultra 2 some thought if you struggle with the match up. Your U2 beats her U2. You can also Ex Bushin flip through her U2 as well (projectile invincibility). You will either get out clean or get hit once and stand up behind her while she’s still in recovery and punish her. :f:+:mp: -> Kara :mp: Bushin Flip on her wake up can also bait the U2 and get out the way in time. Same for her U1 actually. Never immediately counter-Ultra her U1 obviously. Her U1 has more Invincibly frames than either of Guy’s ultras and they will outlast yours and hit you anyway. If she likes to neutral jump split kick (n.j :hk: I believe) cr.mp used to stuff that so hard… but after the nerf I’m not so sure. You can try n.j. :qcf:+:hp: to get a KIO or Ex it for more safety. You have to be savvy with the timing - I’ve only tried this once on Chun-Li in Ultra and I don’t think they thought it was coming at all. Chun-Li is not one of Guy’s hardest match ups but you always have to remember to be patient and presume that you cannot immediately pushing what she’s doing. Let her back dash into the corner, let her poke away at you. Let her blast fireballs from mid range or drop a Thousand Kick -> Ex Thousand Kick frame trap.


#18

Okay uhhh… Decapre… this little demon has psycho stinger, her uppercut thingie performed by charging down and hitting up and punch. You can’t take away her charge on wakeup for this one, it commonly auto corrects and has a RIDICULOUS hitbox on it. lp and ex both beat hozanto, and cr. mk if timed on their wakeup although mp and hp stinger loses to both of those. hurricane kick hardly hits the character let alone counters this move at all. what can we do but bait the move? on her wake up there is nothing really safe we can do even if she chooses not to do stinger if we decide to start pressing buttons, any untrue block string or even pressing any buttons after a SAFE run stop gets blown up. Trying to figure out what to do about this move…

EDIT: So after run slide, dash forward twice and grab beats lp and mp stinger… looks like we gotta mix it up between these options of cr.mk and grab from double dash forward, you could even bait it out with a backdash afterwards but that puts you at mid range again


#19

and thanks guerilla for the info, imma try the counter tk izuna on chun li today… also against abel i studied last night that lp hozanto is pretty good, but any pressure you put on abel on his wake up can usually be reversal’d. I almost never wanna do run overhead against him either, he blocks and gets free KD and then its over against a good abel. What kind of pressure are you using that allows you to go so HAM? I wanna go HAM too… :frowning:


#20

Stinger isn’t that good of a reversal, all 3 punches have different properties, One is Throw invul, Strike Iinvul and Projectile Invul, only EX has full invul. So most of the times, Decapre’s won’t wake up often with stinger because of their ownself having to do a guessing game on what will we do, while we can stick to 2 options. On top of that. the move is incredibly negative. So until she has bar, she has to be pretty good at reading even during blockstrings. Literally there is nothing scary about Decapre… if she does her Aerial Scramble… just mash jab, all of her options get beat out by jabs… hell they even lose to Dan’s Down Taunt. Once you understand her moves and what not, you’ll see how it takes a lot of work to make her be any kind of threat.