Ultra Street Fighter 4 v. 2015

gouken

#1

They are already setting the table. Get ready to through this all over again. $15 for digital download and $39.99 for a new game.


New Goukens: Ask a question get an answer
#2

where is the buff whishes thread? lol


#3
  • c.MP 6 start-up from 5, +4 from +3 on hit, 16 frames recovery from 14, dramatically less pushback (solidify its role as a poke, with all of the drawbacks and benefits associated)
  • cs.LK +4 on hit from +3 (to make c.lp, cs.lk, c.lp x tatsu/palm easier without making his 3 frame light punches link to s.HK and c.MK)
  • More range on close MP (to prevent whiffs on-hit)
  • Vacuum on tatsu hits after the first (again, to prevent whiffs on hit)
  • Back throw tech window reduced (please no 21 frame tech window, Cambofend plz)

#4

Bumped from New Goukens: Ask a question get an answer.

PG 34

If the start up is moved to 6 frames instead of 5 frames as it is, Gouken will lose yet another combo… I think the main thing we want from cr. mp is having it combo into hado better.

Adding more start up and recovery will only make it worse for Gouken as he needs less recovery b/. The reason why the other shoto’s can have similar data on their like moves is b/c the start up on their hado start up is shorter. I’d like to see Gouken remain relatively the same but just fix his bugs and make the things that should work, make them work as intended.

Gouken cr mp-5 fr start up, 2 active, 14 recovery, +3 oh, -2 on block

Akuma- cr mk 5 fr start up, 3 active, 13 recovery, -2 oh, -1 on block
Ken- cr mk - 4 fr start up, 2 active, 16 recovery, -1 oh, -4 on block
Oni- cr mk 6 fr start up, 2 active, 16 recovery, -1 oh, -4 on block
Ryu - cr mk 5 fr start up, 5 active, 12 recovery, 0 oh, -2 on block

Gouken’s far mp cancels into hado pretty reliably… so maybe if cr mp was similar on hit data as far st. mp (+5 or possible +6 on hit), it would fix the issue.

Same with this one. If lp/cr lp/far st. lk was simply +4 on hit and still chainable, you could combo per 2 frame link. Also they need to do something about his cl. st. lk b/c it sucks and you can’t cancel or combo from it… WTF.


#5

BUFFS:

cr.LP: hit +4fr, block +1fr
=> 2frame hit confirm (dmg is only worthwile with extatsu or standing opps) and slightly better frame trap potential on block

LP SENKU: hitbox increase forward or slight movement
=> pressure/footsie tool = cr.LK x LP SENKU, make it connect (hit/block) from almost max range of cr.LK (replacement for risky cr.MP x LP Hado)

Far.MK: change 1fr of recovery to active frames (total fr = same), slight hitbox adjustment for far anti air
=> slight buff to max range poke and far anti air avoiding anti air trades

Far.HK: slight hitbox increase forward
=> slight range buff for poke and whiff punish

cr.MK: less recovery by 2fr
=> make os tech cr.mk almost safe on block (-3fr after buff)

regular Hado: DMG 60 and stun 70
=> slight dmg and stun buff (+5/+20; reference fireball buffs of Shotos) as no 2hit ex-fireball; also delayed wake up “eliminated” one opener for big damage

Backdash: distance buff from 0.8 to 0.9
=> buff defensive options and positioning during zoning

FIXES:

B.throw: start 3fr
=> back throw start up normalization but still having increased tech window; indirect buff to defensive option stand tech

Tatsus: vortex effect and slight hitbox buff downward
=> should not hit low (!), but make several combos less character specific; e.g. meterless standard punish HP x HK Tatsu whiffs on too many characters

Kongo (Counter): hitbox buff
=> slightly more overlapping zones (three zone concept) to make it a bit more consistent vs. cr. attacks and deep jump ins

close MP: hitbox buff
=> avoid instances where close mp whiffs during combos due to weird reel back animations (mostly crouching opps)

BALANCE CHANGING BUFFS:

EXTATSU: launch arc after FADC a bit higher and wider to avoid dash under
=> buff to yolo tactics EXTATSU fadc U1 midscreen

ULTRA1: start up down to 8fr or 9fr
=> buff raw anti air capabilities like the other SRK Ultras (e.g. Ryus), also good buff to W-ULTRA

W-ULTRA: revert additional stun scaling of U2 to standard 75%
=> make W-ULTRA a valid choice (combined with U1 start up buff)

So actually i do not propose anything new just some small buffs to already existent options, so that Gouken still does the same just a tiny better or more consistent. Only the last buffs (“balance changing”) may really move him in tiers, particularly the launch arc buff of EX TATSU and U1 start u

I do not vote for cr.mp x LP Hado being a combo on most distances anymore, as already a long time ago i replaced it by using far.LK x2 chains as main offensive poking tool. I am actually pretty happy with that as it is quick and easy 80 dmg and enables some interesting max range frame trap options on hit or whiff punish situations on block.

EDIT:

I forgot for buffs… please competely delete close lk and use far.lk for both distances (reference twins). Will not change anything outside of that specific hitconfirm from Risemix (which i do no use) this close normal is pretty bad, nobody will miss it…


#6

According to my calculations, cr.mp and far.mp have the same hit stun, just a different recovery. So they combo into hado on the same ranges… (maybe pushback makes a difference) To make cr.mp x LP hado a proper combo, the frame advantage would need to be huge, ahem, ridiculous. So I agree with Risemix, to make that happen substantial frame changes need to be implemented to keep cr.mp in check from a balance perspective (also involving increase of recovery).


#7

Cr. mp x LP hado is a proper combo now. It just drops out of range. 2 extra on hit frames need to achieve it, making it +5 seems balanced to me, making it +6 is a little scary though.

What would make +5 on cr. mp so broken when there are characters who are +7 and more using only their light attacks? Then they confirm you to combo/Ultra to boot.

I agree with the push back though , if that is what fixes the issue, I would be fine with that only changing and no frame data at all.


#8

Remove Close Standing lk.

Make Far Standing lk 5 frames… or 4 :slight_smile:


#9

imo, +5fr on such a long range, fast recovery, low hitting medium normal seems too much for me…

adding recovery isnt so bad, your spacing just needs on point, i.e. not whiffing. you would cancel in hado anyway. similar lke ryu vs. evils cr.mk…


#10

I wanted to throw this in …

-how about cl st hk +1 and far hk +1 on startup? seems to trade with alot of shit it should beat and I agree with IAM’s reasons on combos or cancelling from it…
Also the reasoning for the far hk buff is to make it more useful as a long range pokes and kara games

  • How about far mk>tatsus, just seems like were missing something that should naturally be there I also want 1 combo off of far mk anyone think adding this capability is too much?

  • slightly bigger hitbox buff to cr mk>? I like this button and would like to use it more. Always felt this was a neglected button


#11

+5 and 5 fr startup is bad because the move would combo into itself several times especially in the corner. As much as we’d all love to be Yun with Fireballs, I think it’s for the best that this isn’t possible. :stuck_out_tongue:

+4 and 5 fr startup is less bad, maybe, but I think still think recovery changes are necessary

As for light kick, a lot of players asked for normals to be removed last time. Viper players all wanted far HK removed. The only time these requests were indulged is when the normal was actually good and was moved to a command. I feel strongly we have a better case for making close LK a better move. Giving it more frame advantage on hit and block to make it a better tool from chain lights would be a great start.

I like the suggestion of a better back dash, a lot. There are bad backdashes, and then there’s Gouken’s joke of a back dash. I am really tired of being caught by attacks that are otherwise horrible meaties in this game when I try to backdash out of pressure… just get reset or knocked down or worse.

After seeing the craziness everyone else got in the 2014 Ultra update, I am feeling a little less conservative with regards to changes we can ask for, but the direction for Gouken will probably not change. I don’t think he’s a character they want linking willy nilly into Ultras and everything (as fun as that would be). His combo game is canned to most extents to prevent his high damage and stun from being exploited and his grounded zoning game has holes to prevent his air fireballs from being too strong. When we ask for changes to his combo game I think it’s important to understand this direction; surgical changes are probably what we’ll be getting.

So after some consideration of all that, I revised my list (if anyone still cares):

Buffs:

  • c.MP +4 from +3 on hit, 16 frames recovery from 14, dramatically less pushback
  • cs.LK +4 on hit from +3, +1 on block from 0
  • s.LP recovery reduced from 9 frames to 5; advantage on hit and block adjusted to stay 3 and 0 respectively (this change is to make timing setups after delayed wakeup easier… make this move good for something)
  • Backdash distance increased to .9 from .8, recovery reduced to 8 frames from 10 frames
  • Forward dash no longer passes under opponent after EX Tatsu FADC on hit
  • Back throw tech window reduced to something reasonable (current understanding is that it is 20+ frames atm)

Bugs:

  • More range on close MP
  • Vacuum on tatsu hits after the first

#12

I don’t care what they do to it, as long as it combos when it should.


#13
  1. Back-throw speed increase by 1 frame to match normal throw speed
  2. Low hit-box on all Tatsus
  3. Easier Denjin speed boost
  4. Still more range on LP Senkugoshoha

#14

How about making the 2nd hit if expalm his mp palm? Launcher??/ hmmmm


#15

I was thinking about this and checked some of Ryu’s frame data.

His cr. mp has a 4 frame start up and is +5 on hit.

If you take Gouken and turn on counter hit in training mode, you’ll see that he can’t do much after 2 hit’s but EX Tatsu b/c of the push back. And counter hit puts him at +6. In the corner you can get cr. mp, cr, mp, XX hado on Hugo or fairly big characters… However Ryu and other shoto characters can do cr. mp, cr. mp xx hado/dp mid screen and fadc to ultra or whatever to add injury to insult.

The push back doesn’t allow Gouken to just sit there and cr. mp his opponents to death.

On the other side of the coin, I don’t think having the push back on cr. mp decreased would be a welcomed change b/c right now we should be able to cr. mp > cr. lp and it pushes too far back in most cases to link it.

Is there a way to mod the push back on cr. mp to see if that soley fixes the issue of cr. mp xx hado combing properly, without the change of any frame data??


#16

#17

I’ll see what I can do. I don’t know much about modding but maybe I can find someone who does.

EDIT: I did it myself. I have it working as a makeshift mod in trial mode only, using KingBlackToof’s USF4 trials mod. .2 pushback (down from .5, so quite a change) makes it work on Dan at max range with only +3 frame advantage. I’ll upload a video of everything I’ve changed when I’m finished.

EDIT 2: OK so this definitely works. The issue is that with such low pushback, you basically have runstop fierce in the corner (c.mp ->hadoken repeatedly, lol). I’m going to try .3 pushback and +4 on hit.

EDIT 3: .3 and +4 is the sweet spot. .4 and +4 doesn’t allow it to combo properly. We get one more c.mp->hadoken loop in the corner on Dan. It sounds really good but we get more damage doing other things, to be honest. Making video soon.


#18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bfj4hSUu7w

Done!

Enjoy.

This is .35 pushback (down from .5) and +4 hitstun (up from +3).

At close ranges, you can combo to crouching jab pretty easily. You can do that now, though, the range didn’t change much… it just got a little easier.

Worth noting: it is possible +5 might be a better solution given what iam said above. I like this one because it just makes the move feel better to use, to be honest, but either will work fine.


#19

Good work.

I was afraid that that push back change would give you the loop in the corner, that’s why I was thinking the +5 change would be better suited.

Seems like a lot of work to mod, but here’s what I was thinking.

Buffs

-Cr. mp - Change to +5 on hit from +3. Allows hado to combo properly and still not be a true block string or combo from max range.

-far st mp- Change +6 on hit from +5. Also lower downward hit box so it hits crouching opponents. For example, depending on how characters like Rolento and Elena are breathing, the attack just goes right over their head if they are crouching, but when their animation brings them upward you hit them. WTF. Increasing the downward hit box, simply fixes the issue.

-Cl. st. lk- make attack chainable and +4 on hit. Currently this move does diddly squat and is totally useless.

-lp/cr lp- +4 on hit

-More forward movement on lp palm. Still doesn’t combo properly and does minimal damage.

-Normal Tatsu- Hit’s crouching opponents and is invincible to grabs on frame 1-2. Gouken isn’t airborne until frames 9 on lk, frame 12 on mk, and frame 15 on hard kick he still can be grabbed out of it. Keep long punishable recovery. No strike invincible for lower body. First hit pulls opponent in.

Fixes

-Kongo- Invincible starting on frames 2-21 once activated. Currently invincible on frames 7-21, thus he loses out to quick Multi hitting non-armor breaking attacks that hit him from frames 2-6. He still will lose the same exchanges as he does now if someone activates kongo and avoids the initial blast. But attacks like Rolentos rekka, Bison’s EX Somersault Skull Diver, Giefs EX Green Hand, and Blanka’s cl. st. mk will not override it.

-Close Standing MP- Less push back. Currently if you cross up a crouching Ryu with j. mk and try to link st. mp > cr. lp it whiffs b/c of the pushback on cl. st. mp. It’s also the reason why cl. st. mp > cr. hp XX EX Palm still drops on most opponents.

-Normal Tatsu- After Final hit Gouken immediately drops. Currently he pauses after the final hit and drops with the opponent causing him to land at the same time and sometimes the opponent lands after. The whiff recovery will still be stupid long even with this change, but if you tatsu someone in the corner or close to it you don’t lose momentum.

-Normal Tatsu- All but Final hit does hard knock down in case an opponent falls out of it. Ref. Oni’s DP. (b/c of the recovery Gouken still might get punished though. lol)

-Decrease Air Tatsu on Ground Recovery- Change to 10 frames (6 on EX). Currently at 20 frames. Ryu/E. RYu 10 frames (4 on EX), Ken 10 frames (4 on EX), Oni 8 and 12 (3 on EX), Akuma 8 and 12 (4 on EX).

-Increase lp hado hit box downward. Currently Blanka can do electricity and Gouken’s fireball goes right over his head. It also causes Gouken to whiff cr. fp xx fadc hado on a crouching Elena often. Characters like Ibuki and Sim, still should be able to slide under the attack.

-Decrease recovery on a successful Hyakki Gosai (GF Grab). Currently the recovery is 12 frames once he’s on the ground. Should be 6 frames or so. The way it is set up now, it puts Gouken in a really compromising position after landing especially in the corner.

-Decrease recovery on a successful Hyakkin Goheki (GF parry) to 4 landing frames instead of six. But if parry isn’t activated landing frames stay at 6. Currently Gouken can air parry an opponent and still get punished or be at a disadvantage b/c his landing is -2 frames to his opponent.

-Increase activation range of cl. st. hk. Currently Gouken often does is far st. hk with the opponent is close or jumping. Or make a command normal (see Oni) back +hk.

-Increase activation range of cl. st. mk. This as a command normal is too good.

-Decrease rotation requirements for Denjin. This isn’t such a big issue, but it’s annoying AF. 1 rotation per level.


#20
  1. I second the better backdash. Make back dash equally as good as forward dash.

  2. Don’t laugh. Command grab. Fuck it. The game is out of control as it is anyway. If that bitch Yun deserves one, and Fats McHonda deserves one, then so does Gouken.

  3. Earlier air parry activation.

  4. Decrease the Denjin rotations. PLEASE.

  5. Easier FADC combo to ultra from tatsu. Cmon, it’s there and we have to avoid using it because of constant fear of dashing under and whiffing.

  6. 3 frame cr.lk. Yes, seriously. No more characters spamming armor breaking moves that Gouken cannot currently properly punish on block. Enough with the fucking bullshit.

  7. Higher damage on lp. palm or increased range. Higher chip damage!

  8. Fix Kongo so that activation is not area based but rather works like electricity. If a character activates it, they are hit by it no matter how far or close or fast.