Um...dunno where else to put this now


#1

This was originally meant for the “quality or quantity” thread but it seems that it got deleted. So, since I wasted the time writing a response I’ll just put it here.

What’s with all the censorship going on here anyway? That’s getting ridiculous. It’s not like we’re all cursing up a storm. I’m seeing a few threads closed or altogether deleted when it questions the staff. Players don’t deserve respect anymore or what?

Anyway, here was my response to that thread and I hope I don’t get censored.


The funny part is that the decisions themselves started all the controversy. Controversy shows interest. I don’t see what’s wrong with controversy anyway.

Going console wasn’t controversial? I guess they were just trying to stir up controversy!

I thought it was a legitimate question so I scrolled down to see any responses and saw that it was closed. Wtf? That’s no way to get support. That’s like saying “we don’t give a fuck about what SRK thinks aside from what SRK staff thinks.” Yeah, let’s give a big F U to anyone that doesn’t fall in line.

Last year was about numbers, wasn’t it? It wasn’t admitted to but it seemed obvious to me. This year is certainly about numbers. How else can the “convention” make money? The bigger it is, the more money it can make in the end. I’m not accusing anyone of using the scene and its’ players to make money. I just don’t have anything else to go by.

I remember last year when Tom said that the added tournaments would enhance the quality of the SF tourneys. I saw no shred of evidence justifying that statement. This year, it seems that the goal is to make Evo more mainstream to get more sponsorship and eventually, act like any other convention by turning a profit. The goal is most certainly numbers from my vantage point and I welcome another perspective because it seems as though love for the SF scene has nothing to do with this anymore.

I mean, if things were done like this from the beginning, MK would’ve been repped at B3.

So, I’d like to hear a response to the question as well. To me, the answer seems clearly to be quantity. As a former serious competitor, quality was always more of an issue to me. I’d rather go to a World’s Finest tourney than a Camelot tourney back in the day because Camelot would chock full of scrubs while WF had nothing but great players. It just meant more. Likewise, if a player like Soo entered MWC and didn’t enter Evo, there’s a quality point loss right there. A major one at that. A few more players like that and BAM, Evo doesn’t mean as much as MWC because MWC would have a higher quality player count as opposed to mere numbers. Daigo’s performance at Absolution, while still great, suffered because of console and console was stipulated ahead of time and they practiced on console. Daigo’s play was diminished and many ppl don’t view his cvs2 loss seriously because of this. Also, the omission of Absolution from the headlines screams self-interest to me as well. It should have been made a big deal here on SRK but wasn’t. My only conclusion is that it wasn’t an SRK tourney and didn’t involve SRK peeps. I don’t see a real justification for this, especially when updates are far and few between throughout the year and many times, uninteresting. Absolution could’ve created a few interesting headlines here but was entirely ignored. Makes no sense. Even Kuni thought it should’ve been a headline and we all know that Kuni is the MAN(seriously, who doesn’t love Kuni?).

I don’t care if every gaming mag covers Evo and every gaming show does as well. If the quality is lower, the fact that it’s going mainstream means jackshit to most anyone aside from those holding the event.

So, until I hear a response, it seems that the issue is quantity and recognition. The staff gets more recognition for its’ efforts because more ppl take notice as numbers raise which leads to other things I’ve already stated.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve been waiting for updates to the Evo site to answer some of these questions but I keep checking back with no luck. I’m still waiting but, this question could easily be answered right now.

Apoc.


#2

Apoc stop being pissed at SRK for not including your precious A3. It seems like every fricking couple days either you or one of your minions creates a post bringing negative energy to SRK.

Now go ahead and reply with your 14 paragraph posts on how you hate SRK anyway.


#3

I took the liberty of editing for clarity, Big Brother styles. You’re welcome.

N - a3 Minion


#4

Damn, right on Apoc.


#5

!? I hate SRK? That’s why I come here:lol: . But any practice of censorship shows fear of other perspectives being brought to light.

I don’t hate SRK merely because I question it. I’ve always been this way and yall know this.

Anyway, that wasn’t an answer. What’s the big deal? If it were in the rules not to question staff, then I wouldn’t. It would be lame but, I’d follow it or not post. But there’s no such rule and if there were, there’d be less respect for the site.

Apoc.


#6

It’s not about quantity.


#7

Daigo’s “diminished” play most likely resulted from nervousness. The rules were changed from double elimination to single elimination at the last second due to time constraints. Daigo has played single elimination tournaments before, but he was expecting a double elimination tournament. He got nervous, and his gameplay fell. Again, it’s all part of the game. It was a legitimate loss.

It seems that the only ppl who don’t view Daigo’s cvs2 loss seriously are certain americans because they can’t stand the idea of Daigo losing to a non-japanese player who isn’t american. Again, it was a legtimate loss. Get over it people.

I would have preferred Arcade personally, but if using consoles would make CvS2 best 2 out of 3, then I’m all for it.


#8

I don’t know if I but that ‘nervousness’ argument. Daigo has been to tournaments everywhere. He’s been expected to win everywhere he goes and also in just about every game he enters. He’s used to the expectations.

Also I dunno if I buy his game being diminished because of console, especially if you consider his Guilty Gear performances at both Absolution AND Evolution. Also consider that all the other Japanese players seem to do just fine, even Ino. Actually, I don’t know if Ino used K-groove or not.

I attribute Daigo’s loss to the fact that it was best of one. Anything can happen in one game. But I still give out respect to the man who beat him, too.


#9

Not only that, but the person who started the “quality or quantity” thread made a second thread polititely asking why it had been closed. No response was given and both threads were quickly deleted. I managed to post in the second one (regarding my objection to this blatant censorship) only moments before the thread dissapeared.

**Not only is “quality or quanity” a valid topic, it is (imo) the central issue surrounding evo. **

I was, quite frankly, shocked that Mr. Wizard closed (and then deleted) that thread. There was no reasonably justification for that action whatsoever – no namecalling, personal attacks, spamming, etc. It appears that, not only are the srk peeps not interested in inteligent, reasoned debate and discussion, they now won’t even let the site’s members freely talk about evo amongst themselves.

I know that’s a little harsh, but I’m really surprised (in bad way) with what’s been going on here following the evo2k4 consoles/games announcements. If someone from the srk staff would just write one big post that addresses the various issues and concerns that have been brought up, then that would really help to solve a lot. Unfortunately, all we get is stuff like “you’re just trying to stir up controversy” and “stop with the negative energy” (not exact quotes.) It all basically adds up to “we’re doing it for you’re own good, don’t question us.”

The fact is, the changes that have been made to evo this year fundamentally alter what the tournament (now event?) is all about. The initial spate of postings about the switch to consoles was just the first major reaction. When you dramatically change something like evo (which is important to and anticipated by a relatively large group of people) in a way that many don’t feel is for the best, you have to expect a strong response. If the srk staff believe in and truly stand behind their decisions, then there should be no reason for them to object to or fear having them questioned. Sadly, it seems they do.

Apparently, “your street fighter competitive edge” has been replaced by “shut up and do as we say” as srk’s official motto.

–tru3tn01
"down for the cause"

P.S. I have been a big fan/supporter of srk ever since I learned of its existence a little over two years ago. Despite the negative tone of my post, I still am. My intent in drawing attention to these issues is to be constructive and, hopefully, ultimately helpful, not to disrespect anyone or anyone’s ideas/opinions.


#10

Not that Apoc needs me to defend him or anything, but nothing in his post had to do with a3. I know you’re suggesting that that’s his “deeper” motivation, but even if it was, that doesn’t reduce the validity of the ideas he brought up.

You mean people that don’t agree with certain srk staff decisions and want to discuss them in a polite, thoughtful manner??? A signifigant number of people (both “top players” and not-so-top players) don’t like the direction in which things are heading. Get used to it.


#11

I think we really have to ask ourselves, is this thread really about quality, or quantity: lets look…

Apoc: 735 words
tru3tn01: 512 words
Rest of thread (before me): 316 words

I think it’s obvious that certain people have chosen to increase the quantity of their posts, rather than contribute anything of value that wasn’t answered years ago, let alone in recent months.


#12

Not to take away the win from Evil, but people are surprised on how Daigo lost, and always will be. Daigo lost and that’s final, that’s cool. But for you to say it was because of “nervousness”, I totally dis-agree with that. Having to see Daigo do well on every tourney he has played on (2nd place in SBO, 1st place in Team ST, tied for 3rd in GGXX,in EVO he got 2nd in CvS2, 2nd in 3S, 1st in ST, 1st in GGXX) and having to say that he got nervous? I think that wasn’t the case here. People can speculate, but no one will ever know unless you’re Daigo.

And the point of the thread. I don’t see why the staff is not answering the question at all (seems like they like to elude it). I just don’t see why really.

JP


#13

These are my observations so far of everything going on, but I can be perfectly wrong, this is just to offer a counterpoint and something to think about:

-EVO doesn’t promote quantity, it promotes a wider spectrum of fighting games, not just SF or Capcom games. The fact that SSB:M is a game with a large following is irrelivent: It’s a fighting game. Maybe a lot of people have trouble accepting that, but it is. It’s a different TYPE of fighting game, but a fighting game nonetheless. Thus it falls into EVO’s “Olympics” type setting, because it holds major tournaments for every fighting game with a strong following in the U.S.

-The Fighting Games who don’t have enough of a following are held as a side event for those interested. Makes sense to me.

-A game needs a decent following in order to be presented. QUANTITY needs to exist for any game out there, or you can’t hold a tournament. Even if you had 20 extremely high quality A3 players and they alone wanted to play, it would be a side event.

-The main problem with A3 is that it has a very small following, and pretty much there will be no way in hell it will get over 100 people, correct? The “Main Event” games all have over 300 participants. A3 has no arcade perfect console thing to practice on. It’s an older game. An A3 tournament could be held on the side, but not as a main event. None of it adds up. Most people see it as more of a true fighting game than SSB:M(I do too), but let’s face it: The game is deadish. It’s just not going to get as many people playing and is a specialty game.

-I fail to see the connection with SRK promoting quantity by allowing a new fighting game into the mix that happens to have a big enough following to be a main event. I think this is just due to the fact that most people can’t accept SSB:M as a fighting game. Let’s say…that instead of SSB:M being brought into the mix…it was MvC2 that wasn’t yet regarded as a fighting game, but a party game like SSB:M. Would you still complain about the “quality” of the event? Where is EVO promoting quantity instead of quality?

-The switch to console is to accomodate everyone. You can argue that you think it’s a bad move and whatever else you want to, but regardless of what you think, what are they going to do? Ban people from attending the event so that only the better players can attend? How will they decide who is and isn’t allowed to come to EVO? Set a limit on how many people are allowed to come? Even without the addition of SSB:M, the console switch would have happened since EVO keeps growing. The quality players are still(or should be) showing up, along with new contenders. What’s wrong with that? Should we STOP people from getting into fighting games and just leave it to a smaller group of people? Until it totally dies off? Not allow new people to get into it and keep the tournaments to small groups of good players? Are top players such special human beings that other people should be banned from attending just because the top players want more room and time to play? None of that makes sense to me. If you think people who aren’t as good as you at fighting games are suddenly less than you, or don’t deserve the same rights for their entree fee, than that’s extremely screwed up. I don’t know what else to say about that.

-Even if EVO was trying to make extra money, which I doubt, why shouldn’t they be allowed to? If I was doing this and I was putting a huge hole in my pocket, I would want to make as much money as possible. It’s like you guys expect these people to run these events for free and not make any money off of it and just go “oh well! everyone will get upset if we try to cover the enormous costs of running a large scale tournament like this, so let’s just pay for the whole thing!”

-The reason why SRK is probably censoring and deleting your topics is because they’re tired of you all complaining and moaning about this. You’re not presenting ideas, you’re flatout complaining, so they’re flatout ignoring you. When people have presented decent ideas, the staff has listened and done something about it. When you complain, you get ignored. Complaining isn’t helping.

Too lazy to go back and edit all of that, but those are my points. Just my opinion though, you can disagree if you’d like, but I think you’re all looking at this pretty selfishly and one sided. If the top players can’t handle console and can’t handle being in a room with people who aren’t as skilled as them at fighting games, then I guess you guys will just have to throw a different tournament.


#14

Red- I don’t get why you said

where it’s not even a complain, but a valid question. You’re asking the staff if they wanted quantity over quality. Like you said it’s your opinion, and everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. But there’s no complaints here, only a question, and a question that’s being left unanswered.

JP


#15

There’s a difference between a question and a complaint cleverly disguised as one.


#16

Then why don’t you try and take a post and explain how the quality of SF tourneys are increased now. That was the claim last year. I didn’t see it then and I don’t see it now.

It looks like you’ve always been more interested in cracking jokes than contributing something useful so, you’re kind of hypocritical here.

If this was answered years ago, then you can explain it…right? Good try.

I can see how this increases the quality for EVERY OTHER fighting game community but I fail to see SF benefitting at all.

Believe me, I’d be excited if the benefits to SF were obvious but…they’re not. I need to be shown.

Ppl can dick around all they want but, it just tells me that we were lied to last year. I wouldn’t be questioning at all if things were just straight up, but they’re not.

If staff came out and said “look, SF is going to have to take a backseat at the moment while we try to improve the overall fighting game scene” I would just say: “that’s wack” and leave it at that. But that’s not what’s been stated. Sorry, but I can smell bullshit and called it last year.

SRK has been good to SF so I can accept when they do something I disagree with. I just don’t like watching ppl get fed bs.

I viewed the blanket statement from Ponder as a joke since he didn’t attempt to validate the statement with any explanation to enlighten myself or others.

Anyway, be funnier next time FMJ. I’ve heard far better from you. That was a minor chuckle, if that.

Apoc.


#17

Firstly, what’s wrong with complaining? Do you eat whatever’s put in front of you no matter what? That would suck.

2ndly, I didn’t post the original post. I responded to it. I asked the question a year ago and gave it a rest even though I was put off with bs. Someone else asked it(not that I haven’t thought it in my own mind) and took the opportunity to respond. Not one, but 2 threads were deleted so that no one could see it. I expect that to happen on a website ran by children but not American adults. “Oh no! There are opposing views! Better shut them down before other ppl subscribe to it!”

Closing and deleting threads(and accounts) because they promote a different view is censorship and to me, a clear sign of fear of others’ points of view. In a nutshell, that’s weakass shit.

Ignorant ppl are those that don’t question anything.

Do you really think that controversy doesn’t generate more interest? I am knowingly contibuting more to opposing views than my own just trying to get a reasonable answer. In fact, I’m probably losing respect across the board. What do you think really matters to me? If I didn’t want a straight up answer I never would’ve posted or asked the question last year.

Anyway, deleting shit doesn’t help. Don’t respond, it will go away. That’s what happens on SRK. It’s like politicians. When they don’t respond, it often goes away. Responding in a negative fashion causes it to escalate. The original thread had far less heat on it. Just pointing out what should be obvious to adults.

Apoc.


#18

There’s a difference between sitting there and accepting everything, and accepting something that you agree with because there’s nothing wrong with it. Not everyone is kissing ass or just accepting it because they have to. There are people…GASP…that are okay with the changes.

The problem with complaining is, and I know this is a real shocker, it’s really fucking annoying. It’s especially annoying when people complain about the same topic repeatedly. Complaining doesn’t HELP anything. If you complain, it just shows that you are a lazy selfish bum who has no interest in helping the event, you just sit and complain in hopes that they will change it without providing a solid reason or solution.

It’s not weakness that they’re deleting your topics. It’s a waste of space. No matter how many of you go “WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!” in slightly changed words, it’s not going to switch anything. So you’re saying it’s a sign of weakness if say, someone walks up to you and goes “The Boston Red Sox suck”, and you state why they don’t, and they go “They still suck…” “No they don’t” “They still suck…”…and you walk away, that it’s weak? Because you don’t want to sit there arguing with a broken record?

The flat truth is that nobody making EVO is purposely putting SF on the backburner. Think about it, why the hell would they do that? They wouldn’t. They’re working to make everything better. Why anyone would purposely try to make things worse for SF is beyond me. I think you have trouble accepting that A. A3 is a dead game, and B. Controversy doesn’t help anything or stir up interest. It’s annoying, very similar in the manner that complaining is severely annoying, because most of the time it’s baseless pointless questions and rumors. Stirring up controversy that EVO is going to be bad isn’t going to help the event, believe it or not.

In a nutshell, please state clearly WHY the people running EVO are ruining the SF scene, explain how to solve it realistically cost wise while making everyone happy, and how suddenly everything has become about numbers simply because EVO is an open invitation to EVERYONE who plays the popular fighting games. It’s about fighting games. And seriously, if you’re so dissatisfied with the way things are running, and they aren’t going to change it despite your complaining, don’t go. Either that, or you can sit here wasting your time online complaining to deaf ears, or pick up the ball and run your own awesome SF tournament.


#19

So like can you tell me where are they complaining when all they want is an answer to a valid question? I’m complaining cause i’m asking if they want quantity over quality?? I’m already complaining?? So to you when I ask a question, i’m complaining, is that it? im not even going to argue with you cause you seem to be thinking that everyone that wants to know an answer is complaining. Apoc made A3 an example and people jump on it like a village bicycle. It’s an example, leave it be, and yet you still think we’re complaining. See where he’s comming from. He’s not complaining, he’s asking why was a post that had a valid question gets closed and deleted without getting a legit answer. That’s it, simple. You are the type of people that sees things in 1 direction and never really look at the whole picture. No one is complaining, give it up.

JP


#20

“You guys are going for quantity over quality!” is both incorrect, and a form of complaining…and a form of accusing someone of something. It wasn’t a question so much as “admit it, you money grubbing fools!”. It’s just annoying when a bunch of ungrateful people whine without a single solution, and they pretend like it’s the vast majority of people who are unhappy when in reality it’s like 30 people who are truly upset.

He got his answer, and now he is complaining that it isn’t good enough. It is quality, because the event is open invitation which means no particular group of people actually wins out somehow…it’s not closed down to only top players. NOBODY is getting an ass kissing. Nobody “wins”. It’s just how it goes, how it has to go. What else does he need? There’s nothing to explain. I don’t need to be an SRK staff member or someone running EVO to open my eyes.

If there is enough interest for a game, it will be a main event. Otherwise it’s a side event. This year has to be console. There is no other way around it with the time constaints. They’ve already listed all the reasons why they won’t do Arcade several times. A. Tournaments will finish up much quicker with more stations, B. Although they didn’t say it, it’s much more expensive by a lot to use arcade machines. Tens of thousands of dollars more. C. Availability, D. The ability to hold more side events because there will be more stations available, E. They can use Superguns for games which are too drastically different on console. F. They already solved the stick stability issue. G. If the Tournament remained entirely Arcade, it probably wouldn’t even finish on time. H. You can use your own stick so you don’t have to play on a likely broken or unreliable cabinet stick. I. They don’t have to hire technicians to fix broken arcade cabinets.

The cons? We don’t get to play on a six foot box with a TV and speakers in it, which apparently makes everything “really serious” and magical. And I guess some top players aren’t used to using console sticks, which…pretty much makes no sense since it’s the exact same thing. You’d have to take a week or so to get used to playing it on a table/in your lap/whatever. I’m willing to take all of those pros in spite of the 2 cons. I like Arcade better too, but it’s pretty unrealstic to pretend that making this tournament Arcade would actually fix it somehow.

What else do you need to know beyond that? It’s very, very simple. If you have a complaint, accompany that complaint with a detailed solution on how to fix it. Or don’t expect your complaint to be taken seriously.

There’s the answer, really. He also didn’t just say “I’d like the answer to my question.” It was closer to “You guys closed/deleted my topic because you’re afraid of my opinion!”, when in fact they’ve closed the topics similar to that several times, because it has been debated 522760369 times, and answered just as many. I think I can understand why they’re tired and annoyed at this point with people accusing them of being ass kissing, money grubbing sellouts just because they aren’t bending over and kissing the asses of a few people who complain exceptionally loud and won’t listen to reason.