Umvc3 2013 Phoenix re-balance discussion

phoenix

#1

I think it would be really cool if Marvel finally got another patch, it would really refresh the game. Now on to Phoenix. I have three ideas in how Phoenix could be changed, those being giving her a health buff and removing dark phoenix, keeping dark phoenix and her health but buffing her regular form, and trying to incorporate her being a normal character AND a lvl 5 dark phoenix power up super which both sounds broken and too good to be true. But anyway here are the details:
**
Jean Grey:**

Here’s my ideas of how Jean should be incorporated into the game as her own character.
-Health now buffed to 800k

  • Level 5 hyper “Dark Phoenix Rising” removed
    -Slight damage buff (High in training mode is good)
    -all normals and specials left the same
    -Phoenix Rage either left alone as is OR invincibility frames removed and recovery is changed from 81 to 25-35 frames, the phoenix projectile is still highly durable though
  • Healing Field heals at a Devil trigger rate,still only heals red health, a power up timer is added to the meter hud so both you and the opponent know how long healing sphere lasts, and the opponent still must be within the field for Phoenix to heal. Recovery frames reduced to 0 from 18 frames. Duration of this hyper increased to 9 seconds from 6 seconds. Now costs 2 meters.

**
Phoenix**

Here’s what I think Phoenix should be like if her design is left the same:
-Health is still 375k

  • flight startup changed to 16 frames from 19
    -teleportation recovery frames reduced to 17 from 20
  • Prominence Heel startup changed to 19 from 22 frames, active frames changed to 5 from 3 frames, recovery changed to 18 from 21 frames, is now -10 on block from -8
  • Slightly increase the hitbox of s.H
  • c.M recovery changed to 17 from 19 frames, is now -7 on block and hit from -9
  • Flare Sword startup changed to 12 from 15 frames, is now -5 on block and hit from -6
    -Air Flare Sword startup changed to 11 from 14 frames
    -Burnout Beak startup changed to 13 from 15 frames
    -All Tk Shots recovery reduced to 32 frames from 35
  • a.H ,a.S, s.H, S, c.H, Flare Sword,Air Flare Sword, and Burnout Beak nullify projectiles similarly to Vergil’s sword normals
  • Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 1 damage from 135% to 115% , reduce speed to 110% from 115%
    -Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 2 damage from 170% to 135% , reduce speed to 120% from 130%
    -Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 3 damage from 200% to 165%, reduce speed to 130% from 145%
    -Slightly Increase all Xf durations for Phoenix and Dark Phoenix
    **
    Phoenix w/ Lvl 5 Dark phoenix Rises**

Here’s how i think Phoenix and a Dark Phoenix Rising level 5 can be incorporated as fair as possible.
-Health buffed to 700k

  • Dark Phoenix Rising is now a normal command hyper. Once in Dark Phoenix form whatever health she had before turns into 375k(If she activates the hyper with less than 375k she keeps her current health then) and starts draining like the original hyper. Last’s as long as Dante’s devil trigger. Once the hyper ends Dark Phoenix transforms back into Phoenix with whatever health she has left(from 375k) and the draining stops.
    -Healing Field heals at a tag out rate for Phoenix and stays the same for Dark Phoenix
  • Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 1 damage from 135% to 115% , reduce speed to 110% from 115%
    -Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 2 damage from 170% to 135% , reduce speed to 120% from 130%
    -Reduce Dark Phoenix XF lvl 3 damage from 200% to 165%, reduce speed to 130% from 145%

#2

That change to Dark Phoenix Rises is completely over the top. Her tools are fine. She can deal with whatever you throw at her as long as you know what you’re doing. If anything, the changes to Phoenix should be very minor in comparison to the other upper tier characters.

**- Restore health to 420,000.

  • Healing Field should persist while tagged out to help mitigate the risk of calling Phoenix as an assist, and deal with any incoming chip damage set-ups.
  • TK Overdrive H should cause hard knockdown on the last hit to open up more combo extension possibilities.
  • Reduce recovery of TK Overdrive H, but keep it unsafe on block.
  • Lower hit stun scaling on all normal and special moves.**

Those last two may seem a bit crazy, but really, Dark Phoenix can already kill Thor off a crouching light without X-Factor, so it won’t make much of a difference. If she’s going to be so fragile, she needs to hit like a truck to compensate. As of right now, she doesn’t have that without her transformation, and with all this TAC tech, she needs all the help she can get. Her highest-damaging BnB can get 669,400 for one bar. Ideally, I’d like to see that buffed to the 750,000-800,000 range, and higher with assists.


#3

Yes Phoenix is a very good character but I feel if she is going to have such low health she should have the best tools and giving her already amazing tools a few frames of advantages would do justice. Her flight is far from the best flight in the game actually one of the slower ones in terms of startup. Her teleport is lightning fast but the recovery is just above average. Her command normals(divekick,flare sword, overhead) are all very good but I think they should be improved to be a little better than the rest of the casts stuff. Maybe I’m just being selfish but i think if Phoenix is going to die in one combo/string she should have the BEST tools. Not saying she doesn’t have ANY but she also doesn’t have ALL the best tools. The last change with the normals being projectile invulnerable is kind of too op though, considering the highly durable feathers she gets in Dark Phoenix.

I really like The healing field change you mentioned, I definitely think it would increase her assist viability in neutral game(mostly just overdrive but the others aren’t as good imo). Its always puzzled me why Phoenix’s healing field wasn’t treated like a traditional power up super in the first place. Overdrive H is so good but I try to just use it as a full screen projectile counter or an all in yolo move lol. Not sure would could come out of a hard knockdown property from it considering the recovery is kind of bad, but reducing it enough could possibly make it viable. I kind of don’t think Phoenix needs damage because of Dark phoenix. It was obvious she was designed for her counterpart and her counterpart only.


#4

That’s the thing, though. The system is completely stacked against her ever being able to achieve the Dark Phoenix transformation, so her design is flawed and needs a bit of a tune-up. Between X-Factor and air dash canceling, it’s easier than ever to TAC and destroy a Phoenix anchor. If you leave her tools alone, but buff her health slightly and increase her damage potential, then she becomes a viable point character instead of being forced into the anchor role. That makes being snapped in less of an issue for her, especially if you factor in the Healing Field change. It would encourage greater variety in team composition.


#5

So essentially making her her own character would solve the problem, but with her design I’m not seeing 420k making her viable enough for point. A damage buff,now that I think about, does seem fair. I always found her damage irrelvant because of Dark phoenix, lvl 3 xf, and her infinite anyway.Currently I think her best bnb does 700k but is only possible in the corner and requires impractical placement of Tk Traps. Buffing her damage where she does around 750k on an optimized bnb doesn’t sound too bad, that would make dark phoenix’s best bnb for 1 bar almost kill Thor. She could be like Akuma where his bnbs do around 700k but he can get much more by looping supers. So maybe decreasing the recovery of Phoenix Rage could help her do that more consistently? And if the recovery is reduced enough she could probably tac after an air super too. But I still wonder how much health is enough for Phoenix. 420k is nice boost but it’s still irrelevant imo. Maybe 550k? That would at least let her stay in the neutral game long enough to get a hit.


#6

You can’t give Phoenix better damage and then make her invincible, one-frame projectile hyper harder to punish. That flies in the face of balance. We should keep these changes minor, at most. My changes are specifically meant to make her a viable, high-risk point character whose gameplay is largely untouched. 420,000 health may not seem like much, but Healing Field effectively doubles it while it’s active. 375,000 x 2 = 750,000. 420,000 x 2 = 840,000. That’s a pretty substantial increase. With her current meter-building capabilities, it’s difficult to justify higher vitality when she already has the tools to deal with every situation, the ability to heal herself, and a level 5 resurrection that doubles her offense.


#7

Her super is already unpunishable imo. It’s an invincible super that pushes the opponent back significantly in block stun, giving it a few frames of earlier recovery wouldn’t make it impossible to punish it would just make her already possible super loops she has easier to do. The only problem I see with this is if she gets a big enough damage increase that dark phoenix’s damage would become irrelevant. So buffing her damage is actually a very touchy thing.

I honestly don’t use healing field that often, even when I’m not aiming for dark phoenix. My thing with healing field is that you have to be careful once you activate it because the opponent knows that you want to get in to heal. And does healing field negate ALL chip or just chip from physical attacks?? I honestly didn’t know it healed her so much health.


#8

Teleporting characters can punish a blocked Phoenix Rage very easily. That’s good, because it prevents Phoenix from being reckless and means you have to think before throwing it out. She should still have vulnerabilities, and I think adjusting the recovery frames takes away one of them. Healing Field doesn’t necessarily negate chip damage, but the red health restoration acts as a pretty huge buffer, so long as the pressure is up close.


#9

I think if they re-work the TAC glitches then Phoenix should be left alone. She is good enough, with every tool in the game (besides a sword). I really do like the idea of Healing Sphere staying on when she is tagged out. Maybe they will just give an option to play her at 750K-800K without the DP mode. She would be great and you would have the choice of Phoenix or D Phoenix. They do need to fix her Hyper input, so that I don’t get HS when trying to punish with PR.


#10

That was probably intentionally ^


#11

If air dash canceling TACs is still in, then I think she should be changed in accordance with the list I posted. If they’re taking it out, I think they should just buff her health to 420,000 and let Healing Field persist on tag-out.


#12

For the love of gawd and all that is holy she should not be able to combo off turning into Dark Phoenix…and that includes XFC into combo (I can’t stress how retarded this is). Change her transformation to be a full screen burst, where both characters get neutral advantage (or hell give the other character a few frames, but nothing that can lead to a free hit). This way Phoenix doesn’t get screwed by a guaranteed anti-phoenix trap and phoenix doesn’t get a dumb conversion into x-factor incoming shenanigans.


#13

If it puts both players at a neutral distance, I can get behind this change.


#14

I’m happy with how she is currently.
There are a few things that I wouldn’t mind having though.
Those things are:

Traps changed to HCB motion and given priority over teleport.
Phoenix Rage given priority over Healing Field.
Airdash cancellable normal (even just only L or M).
Larger hitbox on Burnout Beak.
Flare Sword and Air Flare Sword can put Phoenix in the corner (teleport M putting her in the corner might be a bit too much).

I think her health is good how it is now. More health just opens up more opportunities for people to do TAC setups. As an anchor she’s going to die in one hit anyway. Also the way the burst works isn’t too bad currently. I feel it just adds a level of I guess prediction. Also if you’re getting hit by the explosion because you didn’t calculate how to kill her properly then you should get comboed off that.
When playing against characters that have guaranteed setups sometimes it’s best to try and kill them early, burn some meter, take some hits or get out of a place they can do it (for instance spencer can only easily do it in the corner).

I feel like the main thing I really like about Phoenix is the feeling of having an extra life to take a hit with once I have 5 bars. Heck once Zero pops up everywhere, at least putting Phoenix in the back means if your opponent snaps her in, then you were just given another life (they need to land 3 more hits rather than 2) or else if you manage to get 5, then yeah you also need to be touched an extra time. I’m thinking Zero/Dante/Phoenix or Zero/Vergil/Phoenix may end up being my endgame team with how the current game is going.


#15

That last team sounds scary.


#16

Giving phoenix more health would probably be the worst thing. Phoenix, like strider was made for anchor. To increase point phoenix play, I would:

  1. Decrease startup of all H specials and flight.
  2. Decrease recovery of Healing Field and let it persist on tag.
  3. Decrease startup of command normals, and allow flare sword (air) to be dash Cancellable.
  4. No more falling like a rock. Increase air actions to 2.

I would actually decrease her health just a little so most ground combos kill her, and no TAC setup could steal my meter :)… but that isn’t fair.