Underused moves


#1

recently, i got a chance to play with some of the finest players in the EC. people like sanford, X, ricky, and others at CTF. i’ve noticed that j.jabs and j.lk are being abused alot. i’m not talking about magneto infinites, or storm’s triangle lk. after playing for a few hours, i noticed why i was getting dominated. i wasn’t used to playing people who abused jabs and shorts in the air. i had to rethink the way i played and re-adjusted my playing style.

i mean i’ve watched the evo-dvd and watched how storm players abuse superjump lk like crazy on the way down. i just didn’t realize how powerful and how much priority they have. i mean in reality, how do we do normal jump ins? most of us use fierce or round house to get in. why not try jumping in with lk with someone like cable, although his j.rh is good. or how about j.jab with spiral? some of us do this already with the likes of Sentinel, Storm, and Magneto. How about other characters?


#2

hey pryde, would you mind elaborating on it?

the jumpins and superjumping shorts and jabs, how were they using them that you had to adjust and modify your game with them; or what are they doing with them in certain situations that is making such a huge difference?


#3

_blitz

…this is just too good. :lol: … :stuck_out_tongue:

As to the priority issue… I’d advise against jumping in with light attacks unless you’ve got them pinned or have an assist on the way… There is no way a Cable player would use j. lp/lk instead of the bucket kick.

I think the most practical use of the jumping light attacks in MvC2 is for “psychic jump-ins…” To simply jump forward and throw them out whenever you expect your opponent to jump in any way or form (including super/triangle jumps)… When you do this and call the assist at the same time, there isn’t much your opponent can do before your point touches the ground safely… a sort of “instant advantage.” :o

Once he does, however, he’ll call his anti-air assist. :rolleyes: Be sure to avoid it or get out of its way.

There’s more to this issue, though… I’m sure…

There are basically two instances where you’d use air attacks: air to ground and air to air. Air to ground attacks are pretty straightforward: all you have to do to successfully land them is to either catch someone crouching (overhead) or out-prioritize their launcher. Put simply, light attacks don’t do this (unless they’re performed EXTREMELY fast). They do have pretty big hit-boxes, sure… but launchers will generally beat them out.

Another way to use light attacks in air to ground melees is to pin the opponent first… for example, after a quick ground chain followed by Storm assist, you can simply jump in and go for a three step jump-in to see if they’ll block all three before going into the crouch position (in which case, you’d break their guard :rolleyes: )… but of course, priority isn’t an issue in this case.

Like I’ve said throughout the post… light attacks generally don’t work well in air to ground attacks.

One exception is against Sentinel… since his crouch and standing spirtes are so tall, using light attacks to constantly prevent him from attacking is great… but again, priority isn’t an issue in this case. :smiley:

Then there are the “air to airs…” These come in two types: advantages and chasers. When you use an advantage, you’re basically throwing out an attack while your opponent is under you. For instance, most of Sentinel’s fly attacks are advantages (as well as air to ground, although these are riskier). Storm also uses her advantage when she floats downward and throws out short kicks over and over again… Magneto often uses j. hp or j. hk in his advantages since the moves are so damned impossible to out-prioritize. Storm’s jumping hard attacks fall into the same category as well. :bluu:

Cable’s j. hk is rarely used as an advantage move… like I said, it’s best used in air to ground situations. Instead, Cable uses j. hp and Electrap to make sure you can’t take advantage of him. After all, his on-point anti-airs are makeshift at best!

So what are chasers? Three guesses…

Chasers are the opposite of advantages: you use them when you’re under or leveled with your opponent. To be sure, a lot of people die trying to chase their opponent. There are only a few instances when chasing is a good idea.

The only general rule I can think of is… when your opponent does an advantage move that has exploitable lag in the air but recovers before they hit the ground. For example, Cable’s j. hk, Electrap, Doom’s Photon Shot, Sentinel’s fly Rocket Punch, Storm’s Vertical Typhoon, etc… Other than that, you should never chase an opponent that has an advantage readily available.

So maybe we’re getting closer to the heart of your issue…

Advantages can (really) be anything. Why? Because in an air to air melee, an advantage hit box will always be above whatever you throw out. There are a few exemptions to the rule, sure… (Psylocke’s j. lk, Sentinel’s j. hp, Shuma Gorath’s j. lp, etc…) but for the most part, air moves don’t have hitboxes that stick up.

So if you were to out-prioritize an advantage; if you chased successfully, it would probably against something with considerable lag… plus, you’d probably chase with light attacks for combo purposes.

That AND instances when you use anti-airs to chase… but I’d consider this more of a ground to air advantage (grounded moves figuratively have an advantage over air moves)… like a launcher… or anti-airs in general. In these cases, you’d simply want to connect the hit and forget about a follow up.

Yeah… so it’s like I said… IF YOU DID want to follow up on a chaser, you’d have to use light attacks to set up the combo. Still, since people rarely abuse their advantage nowadays (with moves like Electrap and Photons), doing this is rare.

Not to say that chasing isn’t totally good… by all means, if your opponent abuses his advantage, rush his ass down! It’s just that chasers are in no way as abusable as advantages. So you get the idea? :slight_smile:

Here’s a glossary just in case you don’t remember the terms:

ground to air: Generally beat all air attacks. Include anti-airs, launchers, and anti-air chasers (air DPs)…

air to ground: Risky, but good if fast. Include jump-ins and quick overheads like triangle jumps and some fly attacks.

air to air (advantage): Moves thrown out above an airborne opponent… think floating with Storm and flying with Sentinel (Those mad scrambles to get above another flying Sentinel! :lol: )

air to air (chaser): Moves thrown out below an airborne opponent… usually only hit when your opponent is doing an air move with lag.

Yeah… so I’m ranting… but I thought I’d help explore the issue with a little of the ol’ “stream of conciousness!” I think the moral of the story is to always stay on the ground when your opponent is clearly taking advantage. :wink: What do you think, Pryde?


#4

Uh I thoguht everyone used shorts and jabs to jump in :confused: . It does less damage but it comes out faster and for a lot of characters it has a better angle. And if you hit short twice you can do short middle and that will break super armor i think. I’d rather get a little hit then nothing or even worse getting aircomboed.


#5

Get aircomboed? As opposed to jumping in with light attacks? So what you’re saying is that jumping in with heavy attacks increases the likelihood of being launched/air comboed?

As for the “better angle” bit… How many characters have lights better angled (for air to ground) than their heavies? :wtf:

I already explained most of what you said away in my post. "Uh I thought everyone read threads before posting in them :confused: "


#6

damn joe zaza, you should make a book. “Joe Zaza is your god in MvC2 and will teach you everything” :lol: .

well the thing is, most people don’t really explore the properties of these normals. i agree with joe zaza on his mini glossary. the other thing is, most people start to turtle when people start jumping in. they’ll either call AAA or just block, with the exception when it comes down to 1 on 1.

let’s say for an example, cable vs magneto. Cable jumps in with j.rh on magneto, will magneto launch him? in most cases no. from my experience, it usually trades or cable would out prioritize magneto’s launcher.

***edited

joe has a point here, how many characters actually have a jab or short that attacks downward? not many when you think about it. Iron Man, Storm, Magneto, Doom, Sentinel. All these characters either have fly or dash in the air. but somone like Capcom is forced to use fierce, cuz it points downward. I mean i know a few characters who has pretty good jump in lk. such as Black Heart, Strider, and Ice Man. Black Heart has termendous priority, only cuz he doesn’t have a good jump in options. Ice Man and Strider can follow up with fierces instead, but why not shorts? Wolverine also, he has hood shorts, but no one really understands him well with the exception of joe zaza.

more later…


#7

I’d never finish it. :slight_smile: It’s one of my all time favorite games… and unless Capcom makes something better, I’ll be playing it like it was poker in an old man’s garage. Hopefully my garage. :smiley:

Really? I thought that was basic information.

Do most people turtle when their opponent starts jumping in?

Most people…? Yeah, I guess I’d say so, too… but a funny thing that happens between two people that’ve recently picked up the game is that they “air to air” battle all the time! Once one of them learns the power of ground to air hits, however, he gives up the japanese samurai battles and shrewdly sticks the floor. Too bad for him, because once he gives up learning the ins and outs of air to air battles, he forgets about the fact that chasing sucks and resort to it when his opponents take advantage! :stuck_out_tongue: These are the people that still ask, “How do you beat runaway Storm??” And believe me, there are a lot of them! :eek:

True, but the rule still applies. Where one method of ground to air fails, a cross up launcher succeeds. Also note that you can always do a jumping combo before he even gets the roundhouse out. Technically, that’s a chaser (since you’d be taking him air to air)… but we don’t care about technicalities, now do we? :lol:

Yeah… most of the character’s lights don’t compare to the heavies in air to ground assaults… that’s why I make the case for them. Are you trying to make a case for lights as jump-ins?

Because I think lights make good jump-ins… but only when your opponent is pinned or in the blocking position! I’d only cancel a light jump-in into a medium if I knew I could combo after it (comboing a light into a heavy that connects gives you more time to land, dash and follow up) or if I could go for three moves before landing (light - medium - heavy)… most people will only block two jump-ins before crouching automatically, so the heavy would almost always connect in that case. However, since it’s generally too difficult to put yourself in the position to go for a triple jump-in (your first attack would have to hit high)… that case is rare!

So as you would probably ascertain from what I said, using lights to jump-in with only works in certain cases… and in those cases, comboing those lights into mediums barely compares to comboing them into heavies… and while comboing all three (light - medium - heavy) would be opportune, the opportunity to do that is so rare that it can’t merit actual consideration.

Everything is good… that’s what I think about Marvel… but if you wanna know what works most of the time, you have to consider the people, not the characters… or their tools. As to jump-ins, I’d say the best idea is to either jump-in with high priority heavies or lights into heavies… or triangle jumps. So as a general rule, mediums should rarely be used for jumping in.

But again, unless you’re fighting Sentinel! :wink: … :lol:


#8

a ot of the light attacks are very good but if your going for aggresive trijumping in then heavy is the way to go. look at stor, her lights rule but her fierces are so much better.

i think lights have their place, but in my game its more retalitry then anything, storm wiffs a launcher at mine, i dash in or whatever and do lk, launch because its faster then the s.fk by itself. they should be used sparingly in my mind because they sont have the properties of the fierce and should only be used to set up stuff and abused for their speed.

   other then that the fierces are better especially with storm and mags because its nothing for them to follow up one a fierce. where as some can't in every situation.  like cable's j fk, its a good move but unless its in an air to ground situation OR it was planed because of lag or whatever on the opponent, your not going to combo it everytime into ahvb because you probably either expected it to whiff completly or you'll "chase" them with it and barely hit, causing flying screen.:lame:

#9

g

i’m probably missing something. Sanford is good. Abusing j.wp or j. wk doesn’t sound that scary. Was there anything that he was donig with the j. wp?


#10

all right, have you ever played against the Computer Sentinel wtih Magneto? and tried to do some fancy shit on him or tried to do infinite when he’s coming on the way down? what does he normally do? he comes down or jumps up with jab jab rocket punch. i don’t know if ever noticed that, so yea, jab may not seem that dangerous, but once you get hit and it’s followed up by other normals or specials, you know you got hit good.

basically, he wasn’t doing nothing special with jumping jab, the move would just out prioritize all my fierces, low kicks, and round houses. doesn’t look scary, but wait til you see how much damage one jab can do.


#11

That’s not all that computer Sentinel does, he locks in on where you DON’T block. If you duck, he flying lk. If you stand, he immediately attempts some kind of low hit.

That shit’s annoying; pick it up, set it up, own it up.
:evil:


#12

as I watch more and more vids, I see top players using alot of jabs now as suppose to fierce and rh in the air. which is a good thing i suppose. but i see alot of scrubs not yet adapting to this new strategy. i wanna try to revive this thread, so some newbies will realize something out there.


#13

Thanks I just started MvC, you just saved me about a month of expirementation. I had already assumed lights were better out of a triangle jump situation but I didnt know why, and it made me question why I was practicing it so hard. Now I know, so I can build new strats around it that are actually definative.

I appriciate that.

l8ter


#14

Well this isnt just one specific move but is a technique that i find more useful everyday esspecially against rushdown. I am still convinced that Doctor Doom is the best character in the game even though i know thats really not true at the present time. Doom being so rshdown prone even with a good assist has forced me to play around with his wave dashing alot. Instead of the tiger knee photon shot which is still good, a quicker way for me to get an air photon shot off low to the ground is to dash forward or backward( depending on if they tri-jump or just dash) and to cut the dash in half like you do in wave dashing but then to immediately normal jump Hk XX immeditely into air photon shot or air photon array or if your quick enough air photon shot xx into photon array which sometimes otgs if your lucky but DHC is fine. This isnt really ground breaking by itself since all the person has to do is jump up and combo you from above, but it definitely catches rushdown freaks off gaurd of any skill level and once they get caught in it they have a tendency to resort back to the scrubs anti doom tactic of whoring super jumps, so if you are a doom player then you should be used to that by now, any way like i said its not ground breaking but i rarely if ever see it used to its potential. it is actually easy and hard to pull off. Most of the success of this technique is based on catching the normal jump hk out of the wave dash. By the way dashing forwards when doing this only really works on ground dashers, if you want to get the quicker tri-jumpers then half to start learning this technique by mastering wave dashing backwards which basically only involves one more motion to register the dash as backwards instead of forwards. IMO, this technique is invalueble to doom players who generally have a hard time against relentless rushdown. The only thing that limits this technique is that it has to be mastered to be useful and even then, youll probably find that you have one or two chances a match to pull it off without the risk of wiffing.
If you are dashing into the tiger knee photon shot then you are not doing what is written above. chances are though if you have been playing doom for a while you have done it on accident. i hope some of this helps somebody.