Urien vs Makoto

urien

#1

Any help here between the queen of rush down and the Set-up master !
I typically try to NOT stay grounded for long (jumping back RH) and lots of zoning pokes with standing Forward and standing Fierce but if I ever get cought in Kara-kusa grabs it’s a vague quessing game on what to do . What is the best choice after a kara-kusa , st.Frc xx QCF+P combo catches me and I’m at that guessing point ?

Ted


#2

i put my hands up and surrender
after a kusa~


#3

I recommend doing a jab headbutt as soon as you recover from getting hit by the hayate. If she tries to karakusa again, you’ll be in the air and can’t be grabbed (and you’ll get a free throw/hit/etc while she’s stuck in the whiffed karakusa pose). If she tries to do a low RH or jumping kick to catch you jumping, you’ll hit first. If she tries to do low short, jab hayate (another common follow-up), you’ll hop over the low short before it hits. If she just blocks, you’ll whiff the headbutt right in front of her and you can go for a throw, or whatever you usually do after whiffed headbutt.

The only common follow-up this doesn’t protect against is following the fierce hayate with a jab hayate (you’ll get hit as though you were jumping). Fortunately, this is the most dangerous (for the Makoto player) follow-up to attempt, so she can’t go for it very often without significant risk.


#4

I tend to do a bajillion random standing fierces, in order to keep her from dashing in. During these, secretly charge up a bit so you can counter anything she does with an EX Knee Drop or Tackle. Most of the round you’ll just be charging meter and running the hell away, but luckily Urien pokes safely like a mofo. Just keep the standing fierces and jumping roundhouses going, then tackle xx Aegis Reflector to get some actual damage out of the deal.

If they’re the type to fall for it, use the [tackle xx Fierce Reflector, dash-throw-bounce] technique on them liberally. If they start to wise up to it, do [tackle xx jab reflector] instead, which will keep you safe and stuff their counterattack.

Also, if you manage to land one of those jab headbutts, immediately cancel into 3P Upward Reflector and tackle them senseless. Take the damage wherever you can, and poke your meter up the rest of the time.

N - Judo… CHOP!


#5

I would be inclined to argue with you that jab headbut is safe but I’ll hold my judgment to actual practice. I know I’ve tried the headbut but I may have tried to rely on the Frc instead of jab (memory escapes me now) . I know that the Frc has SLOOOOW start up and I’ve been grabbed before Urien leaves the ground .

Ted


#6

SlimX, I don’t know Makoto too well; why is the fierce hayate with a jab hayate her most risky followup? I mean, how is it more risky than say, a MP hayate, followed by a low short -> jab hayate?

That aside, I think Makoto also has the option of doing a standing short -> hayate. That should beat out Urien’s jab headbutt.

Makoto vs Urien is really a nasty matchup because Makoto stuffs most of Urien’s pokes. Even with a keep away game, she’ll eventually catch you.

:mad:


#7

I think SlimX is referring to the hayate flowup, after any hayate. It’s just standard that Makoto does karakusa, hp, hp hayate.

It’s not MORE dangerous than karakusa, hp, mp hayate…lp hayate … but no one does that.


#8

Safe if you whiff it or that it will come out fast enough to get off the ground before she grabs you? I don’t ever post anything without testing it; it definitely hops out of the grab if you do it quickly enough (reversal timing, or close to it) after the hayate hits. It helps to play Makoto a bit to get an intimate feeling for the timing of her combo. Yes, the fierce headbutt comes out significantly slower than the jab (jab is faster than EX, too), but I’ve still been able to hop out of the grab with fierce. I think your difficulty is coming from knowing the exact time you recover from the hayate. As far as the safety of whiffing the jab headbutt goes, it’s pretty damn safe. If they did nothing at all and you just whiffed it, yeah, they can punish with a well-timed standing fierce, or something while you’re still in the air, but we’re talking worst case scenarios, here. Most likely, they’re going to stand there while you whiff it and try to throw you as you land (which you can usually tech).

It’s riskier because doing the low short first pushes you farther away. For example, if you’re Urien and you block low short -> jab hayate after the fierce hayate hit, Makoto is too far away for you to hit with low fierce. If she goes straight to jab hayate without the low short, she’s in range of low fierce (and can’t block it if you do it quickly enough).

Yes, a standing short would hit you out of the jab headbutt, but since you’re in the air, she’ll whiff the jab hayate and you’ll be right in front of her as you land.

Of course, none of this really matters that much since any decent Makoto player is going to do standing fierce -> EX hayate after any karakusa. =)


#9

SlimX…
I was referring to being grabbed out of the rc headbut since I know that has happened to me but I was allowing myself (possibly even admitting) to be wrong by stating I would need to try it with Jab HB.
I’ve actually started practicing with Makoto to get the timing down on her recovery from her moves .

I would agree that no one ever does lk xx hayate…I would gladly eat a lk just have the hayate wiff and go for a urien combo exhibition :smiley: .

Usually the makoto I play against does do exHayate but if he thinks he can catch me in another grab and go into the SA#2 juggle for massive stun he’ll set up the bomb on me and I needed a sure escape…typically I run like hell if Makoto is close to full meter:evil:

Ted


#10

can we do

low fierece>short tacklee>fireball>short tackle to makoto in corner?


#11

Absolutely. This combo also works really well on Elena, among other characters.

Thanks SlimX for the explanation. I have however seen the standing short -> hayate. I think that’s when the opponent tries to jump away from a possible karakusa, so makoto would do a standing short -> hayate combo to catch them.

I’m sure some of you have the Japan vs Nebraska matches. Ino uses the standing short -> hayate, and it hits all the time! My interpretation was that the opponents were getting caught trying to jump away.

Either that or Nebraska people just don’t block. :lol:


#12

really?

but at the last tackle
are we only able to use short ?
or at what time can we use forward tackle?

can short tackle be make into unblockable or only forward tackle can be make into unblockable


#13

lk tackle is the easiest. if u’re superman, u can do mk tackle and it might hit once in a while. but i’d rather just stick to lk tackle throughout the combo.

when can u do mk tackle…u can start it off with low fierce, mk tackle…and the lp sphere, then do lk tackle rest of the way. you get more style and maybe mroe damage…i don’t think u can do low fierce, lk tackle, lp sphere THEN mk tackle…it only works from heavier attacks to lighter attacks…not vice versa

any juggle tackle can lead into an unblockable…as long as the tackle hits, and u cancel a lp aegis out of it, then just standard procedure from there.


#14

yeah, any good mak player will use the EX hayate, esspicly since in most cases after the FP you have meter to burn.

on top of that, i dont think good mak players do another kusa after a connected hayate (i did for a while and i would either get jabbed out of it, DP, moonsault, whatever. not worth it imo!), but maybe that is just me.

and how is he setting you up for the SA2 bomb after the kusa -> fp -> hayate? it has to be done in the corner, so if he got the grab wouldnt he jsut go ahead and do it? and on top of that dosent the hayate put you out of range for it to work in the first place? just curious.

edit: oh, I see. nevermind. cant belive i didnt think of that. :lol:


#15

Againts Makoto players, I usually use SA1 over SA3 since I play very offensive with Urien.


#16

I disagree with this. SA3 is definately the choice super against Makoto. Like Chun Li, Makoto takes a really long time to recover off the floor. Making FAS really easy to setup on her.

Slim’s suggestion with the jab headbutt is a good one, but like anything, it’s no where close to a save all situation. When Makoto’s start seeing you do this (your Yomi Layer 1 – refer to Sirlin’s guide at http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Yomi.htm if you don’t know what I’m talking about) she goes to Yomi Layer 2. She can sit there and then start the damage without the penalty from having to start off with the throw which she will like. She can also EX overhead chop you for lots of damage and stun, or she can be really risky and go for the EX dp putting you in a juggle state if she guessed correctly on Yomi Layer 2, and deal out even more damage and stun. Before you know it, you’ve lost a big chunk of life, and are now stunned, and Makoto peaces you out with the remaining SA2.

Urien really seems to have a really tough time against Makoto. If Urien wants to try the poking zoning game with Makoto, if Makoto decides to play along, she’ll usually win with stupid low forward. More often then not, she’s not interested in playing that game and will be ready for that next opportunity to get in on Urien.

She doesn’t have to worry as much about the penalites for dashing in on Urien because he has no reliable whiff cancel (i.e. Ken whiffing low forward in your face buffering the super each time so the super will always come out if they came into the low forwards range).

One glaring weakness that Urien and Makoto both posses is no almost absolutely reliable “get off me” move (aka the dragon punch). Though the dp should be used very sparingly (predictability is killer), just the fact that it’s there means the Makoto will have to take it into consideration. Because Makoto and Urien do not posses this kind of move, they are more susceptical to rush down. In a Makoto vs Urien match, Makoto will have a better chance to rush down since it’s so easy for her to start it and keep it going.


#17

Its like Slayer GGXX biting yo ass. I try jumping back and parrying. Its almost like jumping and doing Raiden’s superman from mk.:lol: Sorda But if you miss your parry u might get hit by 2 more rush punches for a fucked up juggle. Ino did that shit to my Yang. But yeah I usually jump and get away if they fail to combo me. Do ducking medium kick from far sometimes to keep that bitch back. Or do your forward and medium kick while charge buffering and when she tries to punish you ex head bunt that hoe!

Later Days
Cameron


#18

Yeah, you’re right about everything you posted. However, I do use SA3 againts makoto players and I know quite a few set ups, unblockable set ups and a few other poking/zoning techniques. Sometimes I do pick SA1 againts Makoto and, God forbids, Chun players, because I find may openings for a down short xx SA1 and it’s a real killer.


#19

can u talk about

your" a few other poking/zoning techniques
and God forbids, Chun players, because I find may openings for a down short xx SA1 and it’s a real killer"