Hey guys. I’m new to the thread, so I apologize in advance because I’m sure this question has been answered somewhere on the site before, but I looked around before asking and couldn’t manage to find anything on the matter. So, getting to the point, WHAT THE HELL CAN VEGA DO TO PREVENT WAKE UP NIGHTMARES!? I’ve mained Ken and Fei Long in previous SF games, and when Vanilla came out I mained Ken again. I always stayed away from charge characters because using them on pad always felt so finicky and imprecise, but since acquiring a stick 2 weeks ago, I decided the time was right to give my favorite charge character a spin. So I trained for a couple days, learned some links and found myself enjoying Vega immensely. Until, that is, I took my Vega online and EVERY SINGLE, and I repeat, EVERY SINGLE loss I’ve had since then has been from being RAPED while on the ground by an endless barrage of throws, dp’s and whatever the fuck else, and having NOTHING to stop my opponent with. With Ken, or just about any other character, if your opponent insists on hovering over you on your wake up and mashing buttons you can wake up with a nice dp and tell him to respect your space, or at the very least be more clever about how he attacks you. With Vega, however, whenever I attempted a scarlet terror, it’s slower than just about any move I’ve encountered thus far on wake up, and I always end up having my st beaten by a dp. I’ve beaten a lot of higher ranked opponents so far when I was able to successfully keep them where I want them to be, but the only issue is when they’re able to get past my poke range and knock me down. And I know someone is bound to say “don’t get knocked down” but it’s just a TINY bit unrealistic to think that you’re going to go an entire 2 or 3 round match and not get knocked down ONCE. So, again, to sum it all up, just what can I do to escape this conundrum my friends? because in all honesty, it’s the only thing that’s lead to my defeat as Vega thus far.
Block. Unfortunately, that’s about all you can do. Don’t listen to the guys that say backflip. They’re wrong XD
Fortunately, if you block a really long block string, or if you tech a throw, the situation kinda “resets” itself, since you have that space you need. But if you’re knocked down, and your opponent is pressing, you really have to block well and tech.
yeah this is where vega sucks. It’s just a guessing game for vegas wakeup for both the opponent and you, WAY more so than other characters… Personally, I play more defensive than offensive in this situation. I think thats the safest. Heres what I do: If they’re RIGHT next to your body on the ground, probably going to throw, neutral jump and come down with roundhouse, then mixup, OR jumpback fierce/risk jumpforward fierce into a jumpback fierce/throw tech.
If they’re a little bit away on the ground, block low, and watch out for an overhead, or for them to come up to you, or take the risk of backdashing and then poking to keep them away
If they’re jumping in, block high and expect a tick throw. not much else you can do.
You hear people in streams say “OH HE READ HIM” and this is the situation that comes from.
Thanks for the quick reply guys, very helpful. I only have one more question regarding the topic: Do you think techs help or hurt during this scenario? Is getting up faster a good way to throw an opponent’s flow off? or do you think it just allows the barrage to come quicker?
Don’t ever attempt ST on wake-up. Blocking or back-dash are your two most sensible options, with blocking being the safer of the two. If you’re fairly experienced at SF4,you know which characters have an overhead and which ones don’t. If they don’t have an overhead, you basically have to block up on their wake-up jump-in, and block down back the rest of the time. As long as you remember to throw tech, characters without an overhead are somewhat less of threat on wake-up…although nothing is 100%, there are exceptions to every rule.
Just remember: you’re playing as Vega, who’s character design calls for long range pokes. Meaning, up close, you’ll find our hitboxes don’t fare well at all, leaving block as basically your safest, smartest option on wake-up. Try to use your great walkspeed, good backdash and awesome jump to avoid pressure, because we lack in the wake-up options. Hit-and-run baby. Welcome to the club.
if i know they did a wrong option to set-up a safe jump sometime i’ll go with the ultra. i’ve recently discovered this option punish one of ken’s unblockable wich is nice. but to do this you need to know the opponents setups or else you’ll get safe jumped and you better be ready to get punished hard .
be aware of bait and block. always
welcome to playing Vega
btw… once i get thrown 3 times in a row and not a single tech comes out… i stop teching completely.
If your opponent throws your wakeup a lot, you used to be able to backdash this. I’m completely on the fence as to whether or not it works anymore because I find myself getting thrown mid-hop now. Though this is online, so that explains a lot.
Don’t get predictable with backdash though. You can definitely hit some hefty OS for your troubles.
You can try to find a gap between you opponents attacks and backdash.
Keep watching them carefully in order to react properly in case they interrupt their string and jump in
dude, i’ve mained vega for years and i’ve even been THROWN out of ST on start up… vega has some major disadvantages in the wake up department (among others)… as other have said, you have watch the opponent closely and try to either block or backdash out of the situation. flips CAN work but on average you’ll get punished. same with ST.
i play risky at times so sometimes i’ll a backdash or ST while knowing it’ll be interrupted and depending on vega to get knocked out of it just atfter going airborne and landing on his feet, to i can retreat quickly upon landing lol. (i’m not recommending this btw).
Stay on your feet. Guess block the right way or focus dash out on wake up is all you got other than hailmary EX scarlet.
Thanks for all the replies guys, super SUPER helpful. It’s a bit disheartening to hear all of this, in all honesty. As much as I love SF4, moments like these make me really feel like it’s a lopsided game. All of the work that goes into EARNING a win with Vega makes me understand why people end up having this sort of mentality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk I lost like 3 games in a row yesterday as Vega, and then when I decided to switch back over to Ken for a little bit, I ended up winning 10 in a row, 2 of those wins being people whom I lost to as Vega. Sigh. I won’t let this stop me from playing Vega though. During the short amount of time I’ve been playing him, I’ve come to enjoy playing as him the most, I must say. I guess I can only hope that with the new AE re-balance patch comes some decent buff for Vega to dampen these issues at least a little bit., although I doubt it, seems like Capcom doesn’t give a shit about Vega. Hey, if any of you Vega players have 360, you mind getting some games in and beating the crap out of me until I become a better Vega? I’d be down for that. My tag is my username, ArtisticMolotov.
EX Scarlet is not as bad to throw out as ppl are saying in AE… especially because its hard to expect a real reversal from Vega.
doing vega mirrors is like the worst way to improve your vega (in my own opinion cause i’m sure others will disagree)
it cant be cancelled
it’s not safe
it loses to almost any other attack
it’s not high damage
it doesnt lead to high damage
it doesnt deter the opponent from jumping in again
it does have 1 positive use…
it’s good against people who like to cMKxx fireball
You’re going to expect EX scarlet terror because that’s the only thing he can do that doesn’t lose to any non DP OS’s any way. Even if you’re not great at OSing there’s really no reason to do anything on Claw’s wake up other than a safe jump or just block any ways. He just has that one reversal and backflip you can punish on reaction without OS any way.
Backflip can’t be used as a reversal
Here’s my 2c;
just a couple disagreements here
Scarlet rabbi makes a good point BUT
It’s worth it to block by just holding back and NOT low sometimes. Blocking low always and reacting to overheads is too complacent. You have to walk back sometimes.
Think about it this way.
Ryu can set up a pretty good mixup after landing a sweep.
He’ll safe jump you with rh - there’s nothing you can do. AMONG OTHER CHARACTERS you’ve gotta block that j. rh.That’s not vega exclusive.
What is vega exclusive is this
He’ll get in your face with one of two things generally,
a c. mp for throw mixups,
or a c. lk for a low hit.
But you can walk back if you predict the c. mp. No need to block low if you know that’s what’s coming, or have reason to expect it. Eating combos when you’re playing D with Vega is gonna happen no matter what. But there is no reason to pigeonhole yourself into a rock-solid, only-this strategy on defense. Block low when the situation calls for it - walk back when the situation calls for it. Vega flies when he’s walking back. You can get out of throw mixups REALLY easily. I saw this happened to me all the time playing my brothers Abel - vega has long pokes, Abel has a slow walk speed. So if Vega struggles to get a hit on Abel after he walks back, why shouldn’t other characters struggle more trying to do the same to Vega?
The added benefit is, after people start trying to chase you when you’re walking back, then you can start using st. rh, c. lp, and c. mp, as long as you’re spacing them properly. C. lk too. these all come out VERY quickly and even among the other characters with the top walk speed (Chun, Bison, Akuma) none of them have consistent across the board 4-frame moves of every strength when the situation calls for it, and even the moves they do have just don’t have the range of c. mp and co. When you block them, you’re not out of the woods as all of them are pretty sketchy on block and generally, if you don’t space them you sort of trap yourself in an are-they-gonna-jump-or-not mixup, but that’s the mark of a good Vega - defending yourself in a situation like that. He’s entirely capable of doing it.
The main ingredient to succeeding in situations are experience, practice, knowledge, and guts. You have to go for it sometimes.
Vega generally doesn’t have invincible moves that are “OK, I’m invincible, and I’m gonna hit you.” His are “I’m invincible, and I’m gonna try and survive for just a little longer here and force you to do something unsafe.” And once that happens, again, unlike Chun / Bison / Akuma, Vega can ALWAYS punish it.
Read up on your frame data - for all characters - and you can find exploits for situations like these.
A smart opponent is gonna find a way to not necessarily mix you up, but to make you block forever. And unfortunately for all of us that’s gonna be a weakness Vega will have forever. So deal with it =)
But off the top of my head, here are low moves that Vega, and NOBODY ELSE can punish with the same consistancy and long-term damage output-
Balrog low RH: Punish with either c. fp for no meter or c. mp EX FBA for an untechable knockdown.
** Nobody else can punish moves like that from their max distance with an untechable knockdown. That’s well worth the 1 EX. **
Ken low mk. -4 on block, free c.mp. He shoots a fireball to cancel on reaction, you blast it with EX ST. If you’re close enough you can just punish the fireball blockstring with a c.mp anyways.
Chun li sweep is always punishable by c.mp
The list goes on.
Ppl will always bitch about Vega having a bad wakeup. Too bad. He’s got ways to deal with it. You’ve just gotta put the time in to really grind it out and figure out ways to get around it.
Luckily for vega opponents his weakness is pretty clear cut, but if you’re smart you can still give your opponent a headache.
No real difference between EX ST and Roundhouse ST in reversal situations, besides damage/stun and the projectile invul on EX. And ST beats grabs, if nothing else, so it’s good for something.
Also, the only significant use of short backflip on wake-up I’ve ever seen is to mess up option-selects for the back dash option.
i ve go to disagree on this vegaman, St main strengh is that it is such not an overpowered move that peopel assume you are going to think exactly like what you wrote above and never use it to defend yourself.
the truth is, while it cannot stand the comparisong o say ken L.SRK or the likes, it is still not as bad as you make it sound, and especially it is now immuned to grabs and command grabs. grab mixups are much weaker when grab isn’t safe anymore, going for a grab on vega used to be all you risked was losing a little momentum.
all blockstrings mixups revolve around that combo starter/grab(command)/ frametrap. in vanilla both first options were 100% safe on vega absolutely unpunishable ergo providing a cheesy 50/50 for anyone in the cast(including himself) playing offense on vega plus, on top of that as it was safe so repeatable and frustrating and caused the vega player to mash/tech/flip/ backdash jump etc… so in a matter of a round the other guy could SAFELY get a glimpse at most of your defensive patterns and bad habits. So he could refine his 50/50 with the appropriarte frames traps and screw you for good.
Now that 50/50 is not a 50/50 anymore, grab is raped flat by ST and St does way more damage than grab does, so on top of turning a clean 50/50 into a simple mixups it turns it also make the mixup higher risk for the same reward. also ST beats a lot of frame traps.
Long things short, if you never gamble on ST you are ripe for vanilla old school 50/50. If you gamble on ST people will call you a noob masher but what do those scrub know about playing competitevely in the first place, you cannot win a high level poker game without bluffing, you cannot win at evo without bluffing.
There is a huge gap between being skilled and no being a scrub, the international tourneys are filled with people who are skilled but compelte scrubs, or inversely people who are not scrubs but whose execution or other fundamentals just plain suck. only those who have strong fundamentals AND a competitive mindset make it to the top spots.
SAFE is overrated, it is important, it is very important,but SAFE is more predictable, and being more predictable is a problem. there are two ways to tackle the problem,
1 - use some of your health meter to sponge some of the mixups until an opportunity arises
2 - use some of your health meter to pay your fine when you went for it… into a block
noobs always gamble and abuse option 2
scrubs never gamble and abuse option 1