Vergil safe blockstrings/pressure/basic frame data thread

vergil

#1

** FRAMES + general notes on Vergil’s moves list = http://forums.shoryuken.com/t/vergil-safe-blockstrings-pressure-basic-frame-data-thread/137064page-2#post-6287349**

UPDATE 12/14/11: Added new note on how being in Devil Trigger gives Vergil a legit high/low mix up. One of the best in the game actually. Also added info in number 3 which explains how you can last ditch keep yourself safe if you whiff when not in DT. Also added left/right+assist mix up with j.d+H (helm breaker).

**UPDATE 12/8/11: Added note reminding to not whiff anything if you’re not in DT. **

**UPDATE 11/19/11: Added notes for number 4. Must be in Devil Trigger for the string to be safe. **

IMPORTANT NOTE: Vergil’s mix up is mainly based around getting behind the opponent (a mix up element made to be more prominent in MVC3 than MVC2 or other fighting games). ** Instead of forcing the opponent to block high or low you want to force your opponent to hold forward on the stick. There’s different ways to do that while keeping your block strings safe that I will explain below.**

GENERAL INFO ON VERGIL’S PRESSURE

[details=Spoiler] Alright…so we all know that Vergil has some unsafe normals.

We also know that this is MARVEL. The game where you can cancel anything into anything. We also know that Vergil is the only character that can cancel his S into H indefinitely unless they advance guard. We also know that he has a round trip move that he can charge like a buster to cover things. We all know that there are assists in the game and of course he has sword supers.

**Making this thread early so we can get this shit out of the way. A thread to post any found safe block situations for Vergil so we can find a way to use him outside of turn on spiral swords aka sword dance and mash on shit. **

Alright so main issues with Vergil’s point game.

- Start the round without a lot of meters. Meters allow you to go into sword dance so you can hurp durp keep stuff safe for 5 seconds even though you barely understand the character. Jump forward or teleport and you get free cross ups without even pressing a button on the stick.

- Normals like s.H and s.S are pretty damn negative on block.

s.H = negative 13 on block, s.S = negative 13 on block.

s.L is negative one on block and becomes plus one in Devil Trigger making it his only positive on block normal if in DT. c.M is negative 7 on block normally and negative 4 on block in DT.

- Is not able to cancel his normals on whiff into other moves (at least initially). The only character in the game that works this way. Making it very risky to throw a whiffed s.H, f+H stinger or even some of his M normals and expect to stay alive for very long.

-

-
-
-
-
**Strategy guide’s overview on Vergil’s point objective. **

Your goal with Vergil is to set up a cross up attempt. Why is this so important?

*Rapid slash hits the opposing character’s backside from almost any position and leads into massive combos when cancelled into Devil Trigger. *

*Trick Down teleports directly behind your adversary from any distance, while Trick teleports to their front; both can be used in conbination with assists to sandwich your foe into an ambiguous side switch guessing game. *

When meter is abundant, you can always force a guaranteed KO after a successful cross up via Vergil’s Dark Angel Hyper Combo

How can you achieve this goal?

*Use safe pressure stemming from s.H, air M, stinger (f+H) and Judgement Cut (qcf+atk) to limit your adversary’s mobility - this hinders their ability to jump and dash towrads you, ultimately making it easier to keep them grounded for a cross-up attempt. *

*Force your opponent to block long range f+H while you call an assist to lock your rival down, and then cancel into trick, trick down or rapid slash. *

*Thrwo round trip to lock your competitor in guard stun, then teleport next to them with Trick or Trick Down. *

Activate Spiral Swords and then teleport in with Trick or Trick Down.[/details]

**Safe block strings and pressure (REMEMBER #5 FOR BLOCK STRINGS): **

1. MOST IMPORTANT. If you’re NOT in Devil Trigger…DONT EVER WHIFF ANYTHING.
Just like SF…make sure you always make some type of attack or block contact with any normal or special you do. Read number 3 to understand why.

2. Only character in the game that can cancel their s.S on block into a s.H.
Every other character has to call assist or turn on XF. You otherwise can’t cancel into anything else after a blocked S normally including specials or supers.

3. Devil Trigger grants you the ability to cancel whiffed normals into specials which normally can’t be done without DT (only character in the game that can’t cancel into SPECIAL moves on whiff in standard form).

It also gives you SAFE BLOCK STRINGS WITHOUT ASSISTS (explained in number 4 below). If you whiff a normal and are not in DT, call a strong assist or cancel into DT or Spiral Swords. You CAN HOWEVER cancel whiffs into supers without DT. If you’re in a bind and just whiffed something cancel into DT (preferably, qcb+2atk) or spiral swords (f,d,df+2atk).

Remember when in DT that landing combos is important to maximizing time in DT. Everytime you hit the opponent in DT it freezes the time for a split second. Giving you more time to set up resets and generally use the DT. Using instant air dash H high/lows and assist left/rights can set up combos and resets that kill people without burning out all your meters.

***4. USE ROUND TRIP OFTEN (hold preferably L button down 90 frames or one and a half seconds)! ***

You will know this is fully charged when Vergil’s forward arm is glowing light blue. Like Zero…charge round trip often during the fight and let it go right before or after a normal is blocked then do trick or trick down to after they leave block stun for mix up. If they block the wrong way they get hit. If they block they can push guard you but the charged round trip can get up to plus 90 frames of advantage on block. Allowing you to cancel into trick or trick down near the end of the block stun from the round trip and start another mix up with an assist.** Round trip is key to buying time to use assists with your pressure more often and open people up. You can also charge round trip before the match starts.**

Just like Zero, if you have Vergil on point you can charge round trip before the round starts to give yourself an early lead on pressure when the round starts. The start up is a bit long at 30 frames in standard form and 27 frames in DT form but once you get it out it starts up your mix up and gives you safe pressure.

**One of the best aspects of round trip is that it basically acts as a self assist if you have already used up an assist or don’t want to use one yet. **This move acts similarly to the wind disc in Arcana Heart where you can basically have a disc on screen that will constantly follow you after you unleash it. What this allows you to do is essentially have an assist that can constantly spin up and down and around the screen until it finds you. Meaning you can use your teleports like your Trick and Trick Downs to literally run away from the projectile and keep it on screen for a long time which can tear up assists and set up probably some of the craziest left/right shit I’ve seen in the game yet.

Round Trip is the only one of Vergil’s specials that has more advantage on block (plus 90 standard, plus 80 DT) when in standard form than when in DT form. All other moves grant greater advantage in DT.

The only real caveat to Round Trip is that you CAN NOT cancel into it if you whiff a normal unless you are in DT.

5. s.H, rising sun (f,d,df+L), cancel into trick up OR f+H stinger, rising sun into trick up (H teleport, mash H before the first hit of rising sun finishes). Opponent must block rising sun for this to work.


**Both block strings are safe without DT. Make sure you learn how to space this so they still block your rising sun if they advance guard. They must block one of the hits if the rising sun for this to be safe. You don’t get frame advantage but are completely able to block again without issue of guaranteed punishment. ** This string is also safe to most XF guard cancel situations (only cancelling into a fast invincible super like bionic arm can guarantee punish).

6*.**** s.H or f+H + assist button, do trick or trick down (L/M teleports)***

7. NOTE: NOT REQUIRED…BUT IS SAFER IN DEVIL TRIGGER.
***s.H OR c.H OR f+H stinger into qcf+atk judgement cut (whichever one can force them to block). ***
Judgement cut is plus 8 on block normally and plus 12 on block when in Devil Trigger with a much bigger hit box. FRAMES ARE MORE NEGATIVE WHEN NOT IN DT SO NOT TRUE STRING IF NOT IN DT. IT IS SAFE AGAINST A MAJORITY OF MOVES BUT SOME FAST SUPERS WILL PUNISH.

8. NOTE: MUST BE IN DEVIL TRIGGER
Vergil gains very powerful high/low mix up when in DT. Basically when he’s in DT he has basically CLOSE TO NO air dash height minimum. Can air dash forward extremely low to the ground.
This allows you to hit with his half screen air H on pretty much all of the cast even if they’re crouching or fake it into a low. His air dash is hella fast. If you super jump then immediate air dash it basically allows you to overhead from half screen.

You can basically do air dashes where you’re more or less levitating off the ground more so than air dashing. Further pronouncing how DT completes him as a character.

Your general mix up is basically:

Against Crouching Opponents
1.instant air dash H for overhead.
2. instant air dash M to cancel the air dash and land then c.L for low. This fakes the air dash H.
3. Ground dash into c.L. Gives you a faster low if they are reacting to the c.L fake.
4. Dash forward from a distance then instant air dash H (fakes a dash up c.L)

Against Standing Opponents
**1. Instant air dash H. **
2. Dash up c.L if they insist on stand blocking.
3. Dash forward from a distance then instant air dash H (fakes a dash up c.L)

Whether they’re standing or crouching the distance you need to do this mix up keeps you safe from air throws unlike other air dash movements. The fact that Vergil can overhead or c.L mix up from such a crazy range gives him a leg up when going for high/low mix ups from a distance over Dante. There are certain characters like Ammy and Morrigan that Dante has a really hard to near impossibly time air dash M or Hing where Vergil’s instant air dash H will hit.

He has plenty of left/right mix ups with assists and even a self left/right with round trip and rapid slash so he has plenty of options for mix up once you’re in DT. ** Instant air dash H will only sometimes cross up on some of the bigger characters when crouching. Meaning you will mostly be using this for the high/low mix up from a distance and not cross ups like Dante.**

The air dash H will whiff on extremely short characters like Morrigan or Ammy if you’re too close to them but as long as you space yourself with a judgement cut first you’re in good range to instant high/low. If they’re about Wolverine to Wesker size just do it right outside of Vergil’s c.M range and you should be good.

Pretty much anyone about Captain America size you can air dash H almost next to them and still get the overhead.

***9. Force your opponent to block j.d+H (helm breaker) then immediately call assist and mash on L or M while in the Helm Breaker animation to teleport in front or behind of them before landing. ***
Allows you to force the opponent to block a helm breaker and then immediately set up left/right+assist mix up.


Option Selects:

** - Air f+H, wait then press air S if you don’t get air throw.** Essentially tap f+H then press air S if you don’t air throw the opponent. Option select where you get an air throw if they are within throw range. If not within range you hit them with air H and it cancels into air S starfall/dive kick for combo opportunity.

jkjad


UMVC3 SRK Tier List/Theory Discussion. (NEW THREAD NOW AVAILABLE)
#2

I’d just like to note that a computer threw me out of the H-S-H-S X infinity loop. Twas weird.


#3

Did anything ever come of this? I keep remembering this post in the general discussion, but never heard more about it. Was Lumpia just trolling everyone or mistaking round trip for spiral swords or what? If this is real it would make unsafe blockstrings a thing of the past.

Also wtf is up with SRK lately? 75% of the time when I try to log in, it just fails, then when I am successfully logged in and try to post it says must be logged in to do that. Anyone else having similar issues?


#4

baby’s first safe blockstring : l, m, h, s, hitconfirm into super jump or add h, trick+assist.


#5

Sorry I was trolling :sweat:.

Vergil’s unsafe, he definitely has some gimmicks to make himself less unsafe but the frame data doesn’t lie. Just pray you have either one bar or an assist available or you will get blown up by someone who knows what they’re doing.


#6

I made a detailed post in the general discussion about Upper Slash string and its relative safety. I won’t re-post it, I’ll just say that the string is safe in certain situations only.

Stinger -> Judgement Cut has only a 3 frame gap between the two attacks, making it relatively safe. Most characters can’t do anything about it unless they have something invincible, and Judgement Cut is +8 on block, so there’s your safety. Same applies for stand H, as it has the same amount of block stun. Jumping S and Helm Breaker are also relatively safe. His normals are pretty unsafe if they aren’t push blocked, but if they are pushed and you didn’t automatically cancel into something else, you’re fine.

For the most part, if you hit confirm intelligently and make sure your attacks always make contact with your opponent (shouldn’t be hard with Vergil), then you won’t have much to worry about. People have been making mountains out of molehills about how unsafe this guy is, but you can definitely play him safely. I guess people were just expecting Dante 2.0, or they thought that every character should just be a rush down machine. If you wanna rush with Vergil, make sure he isn’t on screen without at least two bars. With two bars, Vergil is scary.


#7

Damn, I was being all smart thinking I found ways to make it do that lol.

I haven’t had much Practice for him, but I’ve been doing Stringer > Super, Stinger > Judgment cut mostly. Seeing as Vergil moves back a bit after judgment cut and if you poke from mid/furthest distance it’s relatively safe.


#8

@TB: I kind of (purposefully) exaggerated how unsafe he is to get some intelligent discussion going on one of the biggest issues in playing Vergil (safe offense). Without assists and bar he definitely is risky though, not a mountain of frame advantage like his brother.

Thanks for providing the info, I was going to post that 6H->Judgment cut is the most relatively safe basic string based on guide data, but you did the work for me.


#9

Yeah, my plan is to play him second on my team and put a nasty battery in front of him to feed him meter for Spiral Swords and Sword Storm. Possibly looking at Strider for that purpose, I really like him and he seems to be an excellent candidate for a battery. Doom in the back to round the team out and give both characters a strong assist that complements their play styles.

But Vergil’s versatility in terms of placement on a team is equal to Dante’s, IMO. Maybe better, considering how sick he is as an anchor. He’s just more strategic than Dante. You can’t barrel in on people and expect to cover your mistakes with a safe special or some movement. Playing Vergil safely will be a lot of zoning, lots of Judgement Cut, charging Round Trip a lot, and occasionally using High Time or Star Fall. If you get a hit, treat him like Wesker and go to town with the mixups. Vergil on point can generate a lot of meter for himself if he can get started, he just needs a couple of good assists, and you have to be careful that you don’t make the team top heavy (same risk some Wolverine teams faced in Vanilla MvC3). His DHC synergy in general is disgusting.


#10

Judgment cuts are pretty good I gota admit his better at zoning than I though he’ed be at 3 frames you aren’t getting punished by nothing but invincible supers and a few select special ex spinning bird kick comes to mind. Hows rising sun fair in terms of invincibility would it a be viable option if you get a read on one of those special moves that blow judgment cut up or is our best option to sword super out of cuts if we see a super flash or a suspect specials start up frames. Sword super comes out in 1 frame supposed to be way safer than turning on dt.


#11

Eh… sword super is active frame one but don’t think of it as a reversal. It doesn’t necessarily have the best active boxes frame one.

Also judgement cut has to be used carefully. He’s definately not brain dead on pressure like some characters (wesker …).


#12

[S]Vergil’s devil trigger activates on frame zero after 6 frames of pre start up freeze. Making it start up even faster and more safely than Dante’s. Dante’s has 4 short recovery frames after the freeze but Vergil is safe on frame zero after the flash so he can block instantly.[/S]

EDIT: NVM. After reading the data I see that it also has 4 recovery frames.


#13

oh nice didn’t know that thanks for the info jin


#14

Well actually after looking at the data again I noticed the recovery section also says 4 frames of recovery for Vergil also so technically Vergil is in the same boat as Dante. You have to wait 4 frames after the freeze before you can move. Which would make swords super safer overall.

Basically 6 frames before freeze, 4 frames after the freeze.

Either way. Unless the opponent is right next to you you’re going to be able to block in 4 frames. Just don’t activate DT if they’re right next to you or if you think they’re gonna throw a beam super and you should be fine.


#15

Ok, I didnt get the book, but I was getting the impression that his normals were unsafe. The thing thats really eating me is no airdash without devil trigger.

I’ve been cancelling stinger into judgement cut, but its not giving me the pressure that I want. And I’m trying not to rely so much on assist. What are the frames on his jump S and SRK like?


#16

It’s easy to say his normals are unsafe just like it’s easy to say Captain America’s normals are unsafe. Sure…Captain America’s normals are “unsafe” but he also has some of the longest full block strings in the game with assists and can easily set up mix ups with 4 frame long ass range c.L or 1 frame grab into combos. You only see so much by reading the frame data.

People just looked at Vergil’s normals in the strategy guide and went zomg without reading the frames on some of his specials and supers and like Captain…not really exploring his options with assists.

The bigger thing that people are probably getting into outside of the negative frames is that Vergil is the only character in the game that can’t cancel whiffed normals when not in Devil Trigger. Making it so if he whiffs something he seems kinda fucked. Once you enter DT this is corrected and you are allowed to cancel normals on whiff into specials. Your judgement cut goes from +3 to +8 on block in Devil Trigger and becomes much bigger of a hit box also.


#17

This is why Vergil interests me. Not being able to cancel anything on wiff makes him much less derpy. He definitely seems like a technical character that takes some real skill to use. Especially on point, where I’m currently running him. His combos seem to have stricter timing than some of the cast members too, but what do I know, I used to run Wesker, haha. Definitely, not an easy braindead character when you’re playing someone good.


#18

Yeah if he has meters you can just turn on DT and act retarded (i can cancel whiffs yayyy) but his point game seems a lot more interesting. Kinda like a less crazy version of Zero with much longer range where you keep round trip charged to cover yourself and get in. You can charge round trip before the match starts also just like Zero’s buster. You have to wait until after your normal finishes whiffing if you want to use it after a whiff otherwise you just lose the charge and have to recharge.


#19

The rumor that Vergil is unsafe should have died long ago. If you can hit confirm he has got no glaring holes for punishment.


#20

Rising Sun has no invincibility according to the guide. That leaves it as a combo only tool, basically. Also, Judgement Cut is +8 on block in normal mode, in DT it’s +12.

People harping on how negative Vergil’s normals are simply aren’t thinking about the character the right way. Everyone wants him to play like a rushdown character, but he is almost pure zone IMO. His normals are also super fast, his s.L is 6 frames and cr.L is 5 frames. His s.H and s.S are 10 frames, which is ridiculous when you consider the range they have. He can beat characters to the punch on a regular in a poking game, especially after a blocked Judgement Cut. You have to be good at zoning and spacing, that’s it. His cancel options on block are good enough that people aren’t going to be able to punish him reliably, and his range will make it such that people will be pulling their hair out trying to get in on him.