Vice: Strategies and Matchups

vice

#1

Thread to discuss strategies and matchups for Vice… I’m going to basically dump a bunch of my own notes and observations and sort through all the old threads and things I’ve gleaned from Buk’s log, etc.

It goes without saying that anyone who’s reading this thread, please chime in and contribute.

Vice is a very underplayed and hard to play character, but she’s fun. Hopefully we’ll encourage more people to pick her up.

And hopefully with all the previous info and the new info that’s coming, this thread can be stickied into a permanent strategy thread like the ones in the other forums.


#2

Vice notes - things I’m playing around with

I’ll start by posting some stuff I’ve got saved on my computer.

After kick throw:

 1.  Fierce Shoulder Tackle (qcb+fierce)  OR
 2.  Strong Shoulder Tackle (qcb+strong)

#1 catches safe falls. If opponent falls normally, Vice slides to point blank range.
#2 leaves Vice at the Maximum range for her kick super. Negative Gain will just barely catch the opponent (tested vs Ryu).

[edited]
OK, I take back a lot of the kick throw options and mixups that I posted up earlier. Both are very unsafe.


#3

From Previous Threads

(10/2003)
d.strong can go under high FBs
hcb+rh and her dash can do over low Fbs
shoulder charge seems to have mad priority once it actually gets going
she can dash over bodies when they’re down
kick super it real good at any level
punch super is crap unless you can really anticipate something
j.short is crossup and hits lots of stuff
mash d.jab, fierce shoulder charge into long arm is braindead easy combo
d.jab, d.fierce, fierce shoulder charge is better combo
short-fwd-RH each make the long arm moves have different distance
s.strong does as much as her s.fierce

(08/07/04)
A basic rundown of her moves-

Shoulder Tackle- This is one of your few mobile whiff punishers, and your all-purpose combo ender… The DP+K extension adds a little damage to this, but can’t be done in the corner. Also, if this hits you opponent into the corner don’t do DP+K because it will throw them behind you.

Sleeves (HCF+K)- these are great. As well as being one of the few things that Vice can do at Mid to far range, sleeves can help you get your opponent in the corner and help you get near the opponent (you’ve got plenty of time to rush towards your opponent after the move). Also can be used against fireballers, but, without RCing, that takes some serious timing.

Anti-air sleeves (DP+K)- Forget this move exists. The angle is horrible, the priority is pathetic, and you have to anticipate an opponent’s jump to actually hit with this. Just stick to cr.HP, s.HK, or blade kicks as anti-airs.

QCF,QCF+P super- almost useless. The only time you should ever use this is if the opponent stupidly throws a fireball or whiffs something that you’re too far away to normally punish. This super is honestly pretty pathetic, and you usually eat a jump-in combo for doing it. (the opponent can jump straight up to avoid it)

HCB, HCB+K super- Pretty good. Despite a lack of frams of invincibility, this is a nice super for just grabbing someone and dealing damage. The range on this thing is huge, too.

B&B combo- LP, close HP xx HP shoulder tackle with extension. 5 hits, good damage.

Also, never, ever, EVER use s.HP. It’s stupidly slow, and s.MP does the same damage with about double the speed and almost as much range.


#4

More stuff from my computer

Point blank range
For most opponents, Vice’s primary goal is to be within point blank range.

Moves that set up point blank range

  • Kick Throw, QCB+fierce (will catch safe falls)

  • qcb+fierce after any connected qcb+fierce.

  • Run, superjump after connected qcb+fierce xx dp+lk

  • Kick throw, dash x2

  • Vice can set up Point Blank Range after a kick throw in any groove. This is great for P/K groove, who can parry/jd and throw. Bad idea vs people like Zangief, who have throws and super throws that outrange vice’s.

  • c.lp and c.lk are good in tick throw games. 3-frame jab, +7 on block/hit. If you hit Fierce or Roundhouse too early while opponent is still in blockstun, you will get a totally safe close s.fp (+6/+6) or close s.rh (+2/+2).

Super Range

At this range, Vice can land her kick super.

Moves that set up super range

  • Kick Throw, qcb+mp (barely)
  • close s.lk (-2/-2)
  • meaty d.short, s.short (-2/-2)

Footsies Range

To land her throw, Vice has to play footsies. Use s.mp, s.mk, d.rh, c.lp, c.lk, etc. Low jump helps a lot. So does RC, but RC is not necessary.

Moves that establish footsie distance

  • Punch throw, immediate qcb+fierce followup

  • Kick throw, immediate qcb+strong followup

  • Kick throw, immediate qcb+jab followup

  • Any Drag Throw + followup

  • BNB + Arm whip, run

  • Counter attack (modified shoulder) is useful. Follow up Counter attack with qcb+mp or qcb+fp to establish point blank range or footsie range.

  • Regular Kick throw is her best normal throw. Sets up a ton of stuff. Lots of K throw opportunities in P and K off JDs and Parries.

  • Punch Throw is OK… throws opponent all the way across the screen. Follow up with qcb+fp to re-establish footsies range if you throw them all the way across the screen. Throwing opponent into the corner, however, is a different story. Opponent can safe fall this throw with impunity, unless in corner.

  • RC is very useful. RC shoulder through predictable pokes. Then either follow up with dp+k for free damage or qcb+fp to keep pressure and set up point blank range.

  • With Vice, zone with sweeps, s.mk, s,mp.

Moves that reset the match

  • Any super
  • Any non-cornering Punch Throw without followup

#5

More stuff from my computer before dinner

NOTE: Edited 04/28/05 to remove some obviously wrong shit and change some stuff.

Okay okay, I’m really bored and my friends are late coming over.

** Vice’s Playstyle**

Previously, I talked about how I played a zoning-style Vice. However, as I’ve become more comfortable with RC’ing, etc, I’ve been playing a more aggressive style. Vice has a good wakeup game after a knockdown with RC grab/BnB/Super mixups, etc.

Roll Cancel with Vice

Roll cancelling Vice’s command throws is hard. Hit roll earlier than you’d expect for the nailbomb. RC drag throw is hard too. I can’t do either consistently. However, RC Shoulder Tackle is totally buff to blow through pokes.

Crossup games

j.lk is her crossup attack.
Vice has a pretty buff dash that crosses up with no problem.

  • Dash Crossup after a Kick throw PBR mixup
  • Roll crossup after a kick throw PBR mixup
  • Crossup/Non crossup roll after a kick throw MKSR mixup. (Kinda sucky)
  • Run, superjump after dp+lk

Adding a random roll to her blockstrings is generally a pretty bad idea. Vice has the shortest roll length in the game, but it still takes her 31 frames to complete her roll. And she’s vulnerable for 4 or 5 frames at the end of it all. It’s really easy to counter it with an easily timed throw or hard attack. Moral of the story: don’t roll too much, if ever. And only counter-roll laggy pokes.

Vice’s BnB Combos and stuff

1. c.fp xx qcb+fp, link dp+k

This is Vice’s most damaging and most recognized combo, but it’s hard to land randomly. Doesn’t set up any good throw games, or whatever. So basically think of this as a punisher combo to use if the opportunity ever presents itself. If you land a low jump fierce or a j.rh, go into this.

On the ground, it’s possible to link the c.fp off c.jab for a teeny bit more damage (200) but it’s a one-frame link. Very hard under pressure.

2. c.lk xx c.lp xx c.lk xx qcb + fp, dp+lk

Very useful all purpose combo. Iori-style combo, but timing is a little funkier. If c.lk is blocked, you can try to throw. Or tick throw off 2nd c.lp. Or, wait and try a counter hit c.jab.

Lots of mind games you can play in P or K groove, baiting parries/JDs. Just keep in mind that the longer you carry out the block/bait/wait game, the further out you will be pushed back into footsie range and you’ll have to start all over again.

3. c.lk x3 xx qcb+fp, link dp

Just for the sake of completeness, use this if you think the c.lp in #2 will not connect. I find #2 a little bit smoother.

4. c.lk xx close s.lk

Basic Super setup, but can be beat by reversal dps/jump straight up.

5. c.lp, close s.fp xx HCF …

This is a c.lp is +7 on hit or block, and close s.fp comes out in 4 frames. Close s.fp leaves you at +6 on hit or block, so you’re safe if you miss this.

  • If hits, press K to combo into ground sleeve
  • If blocked, do nothing. You’ll be pushed away and you’ll be (relatively) safe.

#6

OK, this is really lame. I can’t concentrate on the work I need to do until I get this vice stuff out of my system.

  • Air blade kicks are (sort of) safe. They give you +1/+1 on hit or block.

Notes - Pokes

  • s.mk is Vice’s longest ranged poke (except for s.fp, which is pretty much useless). Safe if it connects or is blocked.

  • s.mp is good: leaves you at -1/-1 frame (dis)advantage on hit or block. s.mp hits any crouchers Ryu-sized or bigger. That means it whiffs on crouching Cammy, Vega, Morrigan, Yun, Chun Li, Sakura, Mai, Kim, Vice, Yuri, Nakoruru, Rock, Hibiki, Maki, Iori, Athena. (Data taken from Buktooth’s Systems FAQ)

  • *“crossup lk, c.lk, c.lpx2, s.mp, s.mk is the best block string. if the character is short substitute the s.mp for an extra c.lp. When u do this block string u will usually get a counter hit when u do the s.mk since after doing the s.mp people usually think u r done and try to retaliate.” – Caliagent #3 *

In other words, do a c.lp x3, s.mk instead of the s.mp. It won’t do as much guard damage, but can counter hits (yay for 840 damage :frowning: well, we’ll take what we can get) This is because c.lp gives +7/+7 frame advantage, and s.mk comes out in 7 frames. Still, it’s very tight timing, and someone like the Cammy the bitch goddess can just mash on Fierce and hope to get a counter-hit herself. Or someone like Chun with a 2-frame jab can mash that. So use with caution.

Personally, if I was playing vs a small character and somehow managed to get in range to be able to get that block string off, I’d stop in the middle and attempt a different mixup off the c.jab. Throw/close s.fp mixup or something like that. See above.

Or, vs small characters: use c.lk xx c.lp xx s.lk. s.lk gives you enough time see whether it connects or not. If it does, combo into shoulder rush or ground sleeve. If it doesn’t, it’s total parry/jd bait. You may also recognize this as a super setup. In N or C groove, throwing out a lvl 1 or 2 is worth the shot. In all grooves, if you dont have meter, blocking or back dashing out of an unfavorable position is always a good option.

  • s.mp links off crouching jab. c.jab gives +7/+7, st.mp comes out in 5. 2-frame link. And safe on hit or block. Possible Super setup? Can someone test this? (PS2 out of commission here…)

  • ducking mk is a fairly safe low poke with OK priority. It has about the same range as st.mp, comes out faster, has more active hitting frames, and is still fairly safe from max range since it gives -3 on hit or block. From start to finish, 30 frames.

Need to test: Ducking mk has 8 super cancellable frames. Can you whiff-cancel into kick grab super?


#7

Updated some stuff, typos and such.

Uh, it goes without saying that anyone who has found any mistakes or has any criticisms of what’s been posted so far, please chime in.


#8

yo sparkle what up. i remember you from the old vice thread. just some random notes:

  • when you say c.lp, s.mp are you talking about far or close s.mp? both can cancel to super but only one can cancel to special. I went to training mode and tested it as a tick to super. i wasn’t sure which super you were talking about so i tested both. As expected the punch super can be reversaled through fairly easily, and the kick super won’t reach.

-here’s a good tick setup for kick super. kick or punch throw into the corner, dash in, meaty lk blade kicks (try to get only 2 hits), hcbx2+k.

-other good ticks into super: close c.mk/c.mpxxxsuper

-like you said, rc hcf+p grab is too good :clap:


#9

I should have said, c.lp, far s.mp (whiff) into kick super, b/c what I was thinking re: “possible super setup?” was on small crouching characters.

The idea (or rather, question) behind this is, can you cancel a super off a whiffed normal or does it have to connect first? (and again, I wish I could test this right now).

If you can, then c.lp (+7), link far st.mp (whiff) xx kick super will work on small chars, and they won’t be able to block it. And at max super range, whiff d.mk xx kick super can be totally buff, but something tells me you can’t do that.

Actually, scratch that then. You don’t even need to link the far st.mp. You can just c.lp, link d.mk, tick into super. It’s a 2-frame link into d.mk that leaves you at (-3/-3). By the time the super flash comes out, you can grab 'em. However, can be foiled by jab mashers

I’m not so hot about ticking c.mp (-9/-9) into super since I’ve been jabbed/short/d.rh/d.fierce’d too many times for my enjoyment. IIRC, c.mk is about the same range and reaches a tad bit further (I think), but is a lot safer.

Heh. I’ll have to try that. Tricky.

Strongly agree.


#10

A-Groove Guard Crush CC

Something I just thought of… Vice’s GC CC is repeated blocked Fierce Shoulder tackles…

Once you’ve forced your opponent into the corner, can you finish off your CC with d.mk xx Kick Super or s.lk xx kick super?

If so, that would rock.


#11

Wow, somebody loves Vice. :bgrin:

What’s the frame data on Vice’s low short? Is it a three frame attack like the low jab? Either way, the only tip I want to add to this thread is to never be afraid to walk forward and do some low shorts on the opponent as he gets up. Don’t time it perfectly meaty, but give the opponent a frame or two to stick something out first. Yes, even when they have level 3 super or CC. Not against an impatient button masher of course, but against decent competition, they get knocked down with Vice over their body and think to themselves, “Oh, Vice can’t possibly try to attack me since I can wake up super…” They’ll try a throw instead. Well, when timed correctly, Vice low shorts into shoulder counters people who try to throw cleanly (especially on wakeup because of that six frame throw advantage thing). The best part is not only will a timed short counter hit all non-invincible wakeups, it’ll get them if they jump away scared of your RC grab too.

What’s the frame advantage on a low short? I bet you could do some good follow-ups off just a single low short on the waking opponent if the data is like a shoto’s.

Best setup normals:
-d.LK (parry low)
-meaty close s.MP (parry high)

Is a whiffed RC grab safe? It would be good if Vice could do the Morrigan thing of RC grab as the other guy gets up, recover in time to dp/shoulder if the guy jumped. If they tried to throw because they thought you were going to RC grab, low short eats them up that’s all I know.

I don’t like Vice that much because she walks slow and sticks out the whip move all day as her main ground game, but I definately respect her wakeup mixups. It can be downright hard to get up off the ground after a good Vice player knocks you down.

(low shorts into combo does more damage than RC grab btw, so I laugh at people who are proud that they didn’t even get RC grabbed once after they’ve played against Vice/Honda/etc… :rofl: )


#12

I’m starting to play N-Vice. What can i do against players that love to wake up shoryukens? BTW, i cant RC for my life =/


#13

If you KNOW they’ll do a wake up shoryuken, just roll. Then nail them as they descend. You can also fake a meaty and block. Its not really groove specific.


#14

Erm, and to add to that, I hope for your own sake that you’re not jumping in on a DP character in order to get in with N-Vice. If you like doing that, at least try K or P.

kcxj: Well, I wouldn’t say I LOVE Vice… but rather very intrigued. I started playing her off and on semi-seriously 2 years ago after Buktooth said she was upper-mid tier back when he was doing his Japan Log. Me: :confused: I couldn’t figure out why, so I had to know. Now, too much free time and lots of frame data later… uh, and many many quarters lost at the arcade… yeah.

Vice is basically Vega at Dhalsim speed with Kyo’s mixups and Yuri’s damage, the unholy byproduct of a gangbang gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Vice’s low short is +2 on hit or block, nowhere as good as a shoto’s (+5/+5). But the fact that her short has 3 frames less of hitstun than a shoto’s means that you can throw your opponent sooner than Ryu…

too late, can’t think. godfather III was on tonight.


#15

Hmm… I just thought of something. Given the frame data, a non-meaty, blocked c.short can be a possible command throw setup, so long as you’ve conditioned your opponent block.

There’s the 6-frame anti-throw rule where you can’t throw someone coming out of blockstun or hitstun for 6 frames. (Tangent: this explains why Vice’s Kick Super grabs on frame 7: it basically ensures it will always connect, provided the opponent’s not jumping or out of range.)

Nailbomb comes out in 3, Dragthrow, like nailbomb, comes out in 6 and grabs on 7.


#16

Why RC? Do what you would do with any other character when you know the other guy loves doing wake-ups. Try faking them by standing over their body, whiffing an attack, dashing back at the last moment to make their srk whiff, then sweeping them in their recovery. You get the knockdown and the same situation to play itself out again.

If you’re going to block an srk, go for run up d.HP xx shoulder afterwards. It looks to me that the d.HP has the exact same range as Vice’s d.LK and d.LP. They’re all her farthest reaching cancelable normal attacks.

I say Vice is more Iori than anybody else. She all about momentum and point blank range mixups. She even has that dumb Iori low jump MP move that Buktooth likes so much. Jumping jab/short --> Iori’s jumping jab. From the looks of it, the only real difference is she can’t combo into super.

edit: Oh, she has that abusable roll too.

d.LK as the other guy gets up…
-wait one frame, d.LP, d.LP xx shoulder
-RC grab

There you go. Perfect 50/50 guess. Even better than Todo’s same mixup since Vice’s crouching jabs are safe and hit confirmable while Todo needs to guess with the unsafe sweep if he wants the knockdown.


RC shoulder is perfect anti-air btw (can’t be airblocked), so start doing that too.


#17

kcxj: I agree with you re: her playing something like Iori, but why do you say her roll is abusable?

I don’t think her roll is as abusable as Iori - at least, the way that I use Vice, I rarely roll. (must be something about also playing K-Vice.)

Iori’s roll is so fast and so long, with something like 2 vulnerability frames at the end of it. You can use it to cross up everyone pretty much. In contrast, Vice’s roll is almost as fast as Iori’s but since it travels about 65% of the distance of Iori’s, it seems really slow to me.

I play N-Iori too, but since I’m so used to his roll, then chances are I haven’t gotten used to switching between the two and I’m just not using her roll properly.


#18

okay will do. i guess i should keep a distance because he also likes to do wake up throws…


#19

when i played otaku’s K-vice against my fuck around P-groove team, he would do close standing short on wakeup against me. i’d down parry the first hit, and he’d cancel it into the nail bomb grab. so vice can keep her momentum going against P-groove if they decide to get parry happy up close after a knockdown.

peace


#20

Yo, that’s a great tip actually. People totally forget that even though the parry animation let’s people block, it’s still 100% vulnerable to throws. I’m going to start doing this. Iori can do it with his s.LP as well.